Would a FF tax stop you chasing BAEC status?
Sep 24, 2019, 9:43 am
#61
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: KOI
Programs: BA
Posts: 310
My wife is Malaysian, East Malaysian, which is the less developed part of Malaysia. Her views are far more simple.
"To hell with the apes or whatnots in the jungle, improving the lives of the people (her friends and family) there is far more important than some creatures that a few Westerners want to see."
Until eco-tourists can bring in as much income as palm oil plants, the eco-warriors will never win.
People in Borneo do not want to go around on their bicycle, they want a 4x4, with a/c and if slashing and burning will get them that, they will do so.
"To hell with the apes or whatnots in the jungle, improving the lives of the people (her friends and family) there is far more important than some creatures that a few Westerners want to see."
Until eco-tourists can bring in as much income as palm oil plants, the eco-warriors will never win.
People in Borneo do not want to go around on their bicycle, they want a 4x4, with a/c and if slashing and burning will get them that, they will do so.
Last edited by alvinlwh; Sep 24, 2019 at 9:48 am
Sep 24, 2019, 10:09 am
#62
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Flatland
Programs: AA Lifetime Gold 1MM, BA Gold, UA Peon
Posts: 6,112
Princess Meghan and Prince Harry.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...trips-19428650
"The Duke, outspoken on our duty to cut carbon emissions, was recently criticised after being pictured with wife Meghan and son Archie boarding a private jet to Nice"
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...trips-19428650
"The Duke, outspoken on our duty to cut carbon emissions, was recently criticised after being pictured with wife Meghan and son Archie boarding a private jet to Nice"
Sep 24, 2019, 10:26 am
#63
Join Date: Jul 2019
Programs: BAEC Bronze, Mucci recipient
Posts: 1,786
I don't think a FF tax is anything different to APD in the UK which is already a tax on flying out of the UK. As for taxing Avios or FF points that is only workable if they have a true cash value ie you can exchange them for money in your bank account. As others have said what happens when they expire or there is a devaluation of the FF program? Do you get a refund? Also in line with UK tax law you would have to earn them in the UK for them to be taxed in the UK. Therefore HMRC would have to distinguish between Avios earned on spend on Amex in the UK and Avios earned on spend outside the UK as well as Avios earned for actually flying which could only be taxed on internal UK flights as opposed to international flights which would have to be tax-free. It also makes absolutely no sense at all unless every country in the world did the same. How would that work in countries like the UAE where there are no personal income taxes?
As for all the Climate Change protesting done by Greta Thunberg and her school chums I applaud their desire to make changes as that definitely needs to happen to combat future climate change but I do also think that instead of being a celebrity making political statements at the UN she should finish her education and perhaps focus her energy on studying the sciences and engineering which will then bring about technological advances to combat future climate change.
I am less impressed by the likes of Meghan and Harry or Emma Thompson dashing around the world telling the rest of us off. I also think that stunt of Greta travelling across the Atlantic on that expensive yacht that turned out not to be quite so carbon neutral is just that, a stunt!. I am also not terribly impressed with Greta's parents allowing her to bunk off school for so long. My fear is that Greta will just become another politician preaching to the next generation.
I think electric and battery power is a great idea but lithium batteries use up arguably an even more rare resource so I wonder if that is really the way to go. I think a lot more should be done on the development of sodium batteries instead.
As for the initial question my answer is that personally it won't make much difference to my travel pattern. I work hard to earn my money and I am not going to stop travelling. I am merely human cargo onboard a plane that at the same usually has a fair amount of commercial cargo in the hold. If we really want to tax flights then everyone will have to pay more for the food and consumer goods that are flown around the world for our consumption.
As for all the Climate Change protesting done by Greta Thunberg and her school chums I applaud their desire to make changes as that definitely needs to happen to combat future climate change but I do also think that instead of being a celebrity making political statements at the UN she should finish her education and perhaps focus her energy on studying the sciences and engineering which will then bring about technological advances to combat future climate change.
I am less impressed by the likes of Meghan and Harry or Emma Thompson dashing around the world telling the rest of us off. I also think that stunt of Greta travelling across the Atlantic on that expensive yacht that turned out not to be quite so carbon neutral is just that, a stunt!. I am also not terribly impressed with Greta's parents allowing her to bunk off school for so long. My fear is that Greta will just become another politician preaching to the next generation.
I think electric and battery power is a great idea but lithium batteries use up arguably an even more rare resource so I wonder if that is really the way to go. I think a lot more should be done on the development of sodium batteries instead.
As for the initial question my answer is that personally it won't make much difference to my travel pattern. I work hard to earn my money and I am not going to stop travelling. I am merely human cargo onboard a plane that at the same usually has a fair amount of commercial cargo in the hold. If we really want to tax flights then everyone will have to pay more for the food and consumer goods that are flown around the world for our consumption.
Sep 24, 2019, 10:41 am
#64
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 7,238
I was talking to my Malaysian father-in-law about this last month. He made the point that the people involved are extremely poor, and don't see why they should live in penury to assuage the consciences of western liberals living in massively more historically polluting societies. And went on to say that if the rain forests are the lungs of the world and producing the oxygen, then maybe the West would like to start paying for it rather than lecturing people trying to improve their lot in life so as to have some degree of comfort. Very difficult to argue with that.
There are a ton of reasons why Thunberg is wrong in analysis and proposed solution (essentially destroy the current basis of the economy and live hand to mouth, there won't be business travel because there won't be any business). Hans Rosling was extremely good at debunking the base claims, and it's well worth seeking his lectures out on Youtube. But the activists are extremely effective at conjuring up emotive images - the idea that the Amazon is burning (it isn't) or that the icecaps are disappearing (they aren't) stoke apocalyptic fears. Not the least interesting part of this is the comparison with pretty much any apocalyptic cult there has ever been - threats of extinction if we do not follow the way of the enlightened and make sacrifices to return to a pure form of existence. We even have a virgin prophet, Joan of Arc style. And the dismissal of reasoned arguments by turning the attention onto the prophet ("why do you have a problem with Greta?") rather than the substance of the claims. There are also rather nasty eugenicist strains in much of the rhetoric.
Malthusianism has a long and remarkably dreadful record of similar predictions. The reason is that every new human is not (as Thunberg would suggest) a burden on the world, but net added value, and humans solve problems.
None of this is to say that we're doing enough, and possibly the privilege of being able to travel is running its course. But the dialogue is becoming hysterical now, and that will create bad decisions.
There are a ton of reasons why Thunberg is wrong in analysis and proposed solution (essentially destroy the current basis of the economy and live hand to mouth, there won't be business travel because there won't be any business). Hans Rosling was extremely good at debunking the base claims, and it's well worth seeking his lectures out on Youtube. But the activists are extremely effective at conjuring up emotive images - the idea that the Amazon is burning (it isn't) or that the icecaps are disappearing (they aren't) stoke apocalyptic fears. Not the least interesting part of this is the comparison with pretty much any apocalyptic cult there has ever been - threats of extinction if we do not follow the way of the enlightened and make sacrifices to return to a pure form of existence. We even have a virgin prophet, Joan of Arc style. And the dismissal of reasoned arguments by turning the attention onto the prophet ("why do you have a problem with Greta?") rather than the substance of the claims. There are also rather nasty eugenicist strains in much of the rhetoric.
Malthusianism has a long and remarkably dreadful record of similar predictions. The reason is that every new human is not (as Thunberg would suggest) a burden on the world, but net added value, and humans solve problems.
None of this is to say that we're doing enough, and possibly the privilege of being able to travel is running its course. But the dialogue is becoming hysterical now, and that will create bad decisions.
I agree with you that her cure (or Extinction Rebellion’s) is not at all feasible; however I don’t agree with you in saying that rainforests aren’t shrinking (for they are) and icecaps aren’t melting, for they do.
You make a good point, though, that richer countries should put their money where their mouths are.
Sep 24, 2019, 10:54 am
#65
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Argentina
Posts: 40,212
Answer to the question....I'm more of a frequent fryer than a flyer so it doesn't concern me.
As for the Norwegian girl. Good for her but I get the feeling she's being pushed by those of an age who should know better.
As for the Norwegian girl. Good for her but I get the feeling she's being pushed by those of an age who should know better.
Sep 24, 2019, 11:07 am
#66
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Wedged somewhere between BTS and VIE ✈
Programs: Star Alliance Gold (A3 Gold), Oneworld Emerald (BA Gold), Hilton Diamond
Posts: 6,338
What a stupid idea.
Sorry Greta, you can say what you want, I won't stop flying. I will never have kids, so as far as I'm concerned I'm doing more for climate change than many others. Once I'm dead, it's the end of the line, no offspring from me to make the problem worse.
The real elephant in the room here is overpopulation, why don't they tackle that?!
Sorry Greta, you can say what you want, I won't stop flying. I will never have kids, so as far as I'm concerned I'm doing more for climate change than many others. Once I'm dead, it's the end of the line, no offspring from me to make the problem worse.
The real elephant in the room here is overpopulation, why don't they tackle that?!
Sep 24, 2019, 11:24 am
#68
Join Date: Dec 2016
Programs: BAEC GGL/CR; Hilton Diamond; Mucci des Puccis
Posts: 5,634
https://bigthink.com/robby-berman/ha...-well-miss-him
Sep 24, 2019, 11:33 am
#69
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Programs: IC Hotels Spire, BA Gold
Posts: 8,671
Is there a Norwegian one then as well as Greta from Sweden?
Sep 24, 2019, 12:04 pm
#70
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges and Environmentally Friendly Travel
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London, UK
Posts: 22,213
I now track my travel related CO₂ emissions. It took me quite a long time to find an online calculator that produces results based on aircraft type and specific routes, most produce very crude results - i now use https://www.atmosfair.de/en/offset/flight
My policy is to track flights taken over a 12 month period and make an annual year end offset payment, factoring in APD paid in advance for the set of flights taken over the same 12 month period. So far in 2019, I have built up a healthy credit, thanks in whole to the prepaid APD levies.
To give you a indication of the numbers involved, here is an example of my next booking
BA1590 LHR-DFW, Boeing 777-300ER, Business
Climate impact: 2,756 kg CO₂
Compensation amount: € 64
BA4971 DFW-MSY, Boeing 737-800, Business
Climate impact: 247 kg CO₂
Compensation amount: € 6
BA224, MSY-LHR, Boeing 787-8, Business
Climate impact: 2,140 kg CO₂
Compensation amount: € 50
Total CO₂ compensation for this trip: € 122 (Ł 108)
APD paid for this trip: Ł 172
Edited to add:
My trips to IST on BA work out approx even stevens providing I get a A320NEO. Ł 26 APD versus € 26 CO₂ compensation. The compensation for the A320CEO is higher at € 38.
My policy is to track flights taken over a 12 month period and make an annual year end offset payment, factoring in APD paid in advance for the set of flights taken over the same 12 month period. So far in 2019, I have built up a healthy credit, thanks in whole to the prepaid APD levies.
To give you a indication of the numbers involved, here is an example of my next booking
BA1590 LHR-DFW, Boeing 777-300ER, Business
Climate impact: 2,756 kg CO₂
Compensation amount: € 64
BA4971 DFW-MSY, Boeing 737-800, Business
Climate impact: 247 kg CO₂
Compensation amount: € 6
BA224, MSY-LHR, Boeing 787-8, Business
Climate impact: 2,140 kg CO₂
Compensation amount: € 50
Total CO₂ compensation for this trip: € 122 (Ł 108)
APD paid for this trip: Ł 172
Edited to add:
My trips to IST on BA work out approx even stevens providing I get a A320NEO. Ł 26 APD versus € 26 CO₂ compensation. The compensation for the A320CEO is higher at € 38.
Last edited by Prospero; Sep 24, 2019 at 12:22 pm
Sep 24, 2019, 1:10 pm
#71
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: JER
Programs: BA Gold/OWE, several MUCCI, and assorted Pensions!
Posts: 32,147
Neat system, Prospero. I must have a Planet-saving look at my impact - will someone tell Greta I'm trying to help? 
I'm sure Gov't calculations for taxation would exceed those figures substantially, of course!
I'm sure Gov't calculations for taxation would exceed those figures substantially, of course!
Sep 24, 2019, 4:02 pm
#72
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: London. Or a plane.
Programs: "Only" 50,000 TPs until BA GGLfL
Posts: 2,779
The UK APD is geared to tax more for longer flights and tax more for premium flights. As prospero notes, it does a pretty good job of approximating the CO2 costs of tickets already, and I can't think of any other country that has a system that is as punitive to longhaul premium travel (which is of course the worst CO2 offender)
Sep 24, 2019, 10:02 pm
#73
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sapporo, Japan
Programs: Junior Jet Club, Nando's Card 1 Red Chilli, Tesco Clubcard, BAEC Gold, TK M&S Elite
Posts: 520
I was talking to my Malaysian father-in-law about this last month. He made the point that the people involved are extremely poor, and don't see why they should live in penury to assuage the consciences of western liberals living in massively more historically polluting societies. And went on to say that if the rain forests are the lungs of the world and producing the oxygen, then maybe the West would like to start paying for it rather than lecturing people trying to improve their lot in life so as to have some degree of comfort. Very difficult to argue with that.
There are a ton of reasons why Thunberg is wrong in analysis and proposed solution (essentially destroy the current basis of the economy and live hand to mouth, there won't be business travel because there won't be any business). Hans Rosling was extremely good at debunking the base claims, and it's well worth seeking his lectures out on Youtube. But the activists are extremely effective at conjuring up emotive images - the idea that the Amazon is burning (it isn't) or that the icecaps are disappearing (they aren't) stoke apocalyptic fears. Not the least interesting part of this is the comparison with pretty much any apocalyptic cult there has ever been - threats of extinction if we do not follow the way of the enlightened and make sacrifices to return to a pure form of existence. We even have a virgin prophet, Joan of Arc style. And the dismissal of reasoned arguments by turning the attention onto the prophet ("why do you have a problem with Greta?") rather than the substance of the claims. There are also rather nasty eugenicist strains in much of the rhetoric.
Malthusianism has a long and remarkably dreadful record of similar predictions. The reason is that every new human is not (as Thunberg would suggest) a burden on the world, but net added value, and humans solve problems.
None of this is to say that we're doing enough, and possibly the privilege of being able to travel is running its course. But the dialogue is becoming hysterical now, and that will create bad decisions.
There are a ton of reasons why Thunberg is wrong in analysis and proposed solution (essentially destroy the current basis of the economy and live hand to mouth, there won't be business travel because there won't be any business). Hans Rosling was extremely good at debunking the base claims, and it's well worth seeking his lectures out on Youtube. But the activists are extremely effective at conjuring up emotive images - the idea that the Amazon is burning (it isn't) or that the icecaps are disappearing (they aren't) stoke apocalyptic fears. Not the least interesting part of this is the comparison with pretty much any apocalyptic cult there has ever been - threats of extinction if we do not follow the way of the enlightened and make sacrifices to return to a pure form of existence. We even have a virgin prophet, Joan of Arc style. And the dismissal of reasoned arguments by turning the attention onto the prophet ("why do you have a problem with Greta?") rather than the substance of the claims. There are also rather nasty eugenicist strains in much of the rhetoric.
Malthusianism has a long and remarkably dreadful record of similar predictions. The reason is that every new human is not (as Thunberg would suggest) a burden on the world, but net added value, and humans solve problems.
None of this is to say that we're doing enough, and possibly the privilege of being able to travel is running its course. But the dialogue is becoming hysterical now, and that will create bad decisions.
We are a clever lot, we can do amazing things, but if we continue at the current rate there simply won't be enough research in the world to reverse the damage.
Everything we do is based around making money, having status and loss of either seems to be the driving force in ignoring those who are making the noise in favour of the environment.
Greta is just a spokesperson, she has no real knowledge of environmental science other than what she has read and heard in her short time on the planet. Whether she's being taken advantage of and used as a puppet is a different argument, and it seems that climate change denyers pick on just that.
"bUt hEr tRip aCroSs tHe oCeaN wAs wOrSe tHan fLyInG!"
Even if it was, the net effect of awareness and support for her point *far* outweighs the actual effect of how she got to New York.
Sep 25, 2019, 1:50 am
#74
Join Date: Jul 2019
Programs: BAEC Bronze, Mucci recipient
Posts: 1,786
Greta is just a spokesperson, she has no real knowledge of environmental science other than what she has read and heard in her short time on the planet. Whether she's being taken advantage of and used as a puppet is a different argument, and it seems that climate change denyers pick on just that.
"bUt hEr tRip aCroSs tHe oCeaN wAs wOrSe tHan fLyInG!"
Even if it was, the net effect of awareness and support for her point *far* outweighs the actual effect of how she got to New York.
"bUt hEr tRip aCroSs tHe oCeaN wAs wOrSe tHan fLyInG!"
Even if it was, the net effect of awareness and support for her point *far* outweighs the actual effect of how she got to New York.
She specifically claims to avoid flying because it is so bad and has negative impacts on the planet. When, as it turns out, that her actual travel was actually worse than if she had simply flown and offset the carbon effect as we all can when we fly then her message falls flat. She is saying do as I say not as I do.
If she wants to criticise others (and I respect her right to do so) then she should also be criticised when she does something wrong. It works both ways.
Sep 25, 2019, 2:32 am
#75
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: London
Programs: Many. Too many. I came here to cut them down. I failed.
Posts: 2,999
My wife is Malaysian, East Malaysian, which is the less developed part of Malaysia. Her views are far more simple.
"To hell with the apes or whatnots in the jungle, improving the lives of the people (her friends and family) there is far more important than some creatures that a few Westerners want to see."
Until eco-tourists can bring in as much income as palm oil plants, the eco-warriors will never win.
People in Borneo do not want to go around on their bicycle, they want a 4x4, with a/c and if slashing and burning will get them that, they will do so.
"To hell with the apes or whatnots in the jungle, improving the lives of the people (her friends and family) there is far more important than some creatures that a few Westerners want to see."
Until eco-tourists can bring in as much income as palm oil plants, the eco-warriors will never win.
People in Borneo do not want to go around on their bicycle, they want a 4x4, with a/c and if slashing and burning will get them that, they will do so.
But poor old Sumatra & Kalimantan, busy polluting Singapore and Malaysia is basically on fire.
Parts of Sumatra have only seen red skies since July: https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2...mpression=true
Incredibly sad.