Jul 20, 2019, 3:27 am
Last edit by: corporate-wage-slave
Quick answers to FAQ:
Help! What do I do now?
Most importantly, don't panic and don't do anything in haste. Read these FAQ. Read the thread, particularly the posts starting from the time that the strike dates were announced. Identify your options. Think about what works for you. Then take action. If you do anything in haste, you may have thrown away good options, or you may have thrown away money that you needn't have spent.
NOTE: Some emails have been sent out by mistake notifying the cancellation of flights on 8 September and other dates. If your booking still looks OK in MMB then you don't need to take further action. A cancelled flight should be shown in MMB with struck-through text. If your flight details are not struck through, then it probably hasn't actually been cancelled. You could check ba.com to see whether BA is still taking reservations for the flight in question. If so, then the flight has not been cancelled. You may also try checking on ExpertFlyer, if you have access, to see whether your flight appears still to be operating and whether BA is still taking reservations. However, some afternoon/evening flights on 8 September have genuinely been cancelled. See main thread for details.
Has a strike been called yet?
Yes. BALPA, the pilots' union, has voted in favour of strike action, and the Court of Appeal has rejected BA's submission to have the poll set aside, so the legal process is now over. The two parties went back into talks after the legal proceedings and those talks were expected to continue into the week of 5 August.
BALPA on 23 Aug announced strikes on Monday 9 September Tuesday 10 September and Friday 27 September.
Any further strikes normally require 2 weeks notice under UK legislation.
What flights may be affected?
LHR and LGW based flights. Not LCY or STN flights. Both cabin and flight crew are in dispute with BA, but the pilots (captains, senior first officers, first officers) are closest to strike action.
How long would a strike last?
The initial strikes are for two days the a single day, with normal working in between. Any other strikes could be of any length. It would be rare in the UK for there to be a full time strike.
What would happen to my flights if it is a strike day?
A range of options have been announced, see post 1551 below for more information: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/brit...l#post31451055
and BA Trade Site guidance here: https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb...kba?faqid=7594
Rebooking is now allowed on Iberia, AA, Finnair, JAL and Qatar. Within Europe EI and Vueling are also allowed. This is for both revenue and redemption flights.
and the FAQ on BA.com here (this includes information on BA Holidays bookings which are substantially different): https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb...st-information
Can I do anything with an existing booking now?
Yes. Your options are different depending on whether your flights are currently showing as cancelled or not. See the links above.
What about Heathrow staff - aren't their strikes planned there too?
Yes there is a separate dispute at the moment between Heathrow Airport (HAL) and their staff such as those who operate the security checkpoints. See the separate thread on the issue.
Am I protected by EC261 if there is a problem?
You are always covered by the Right to Care provisions of Regulation EC261. You could potentially be able to claim compensation for delays, cancellations and downgrades caused by BA staff action too, but not for HAL strikes (for cancellations only if there is flight is less than 14 day’s notice). See the main EC261 thread in the BA Forum Dashboard.
Help! What do I do now?
Most importantly, don't panic and don't do anything in haste. Read these FAQ. Read the thread, particularly the posts starting from the time that the strike dates were announced. Identify your options. Think about what works for you. Then take action. If you do anything in haste, you may have thrown away good options, or you may have thrown away money that you needn't have spent.
NOTE: Some emails have been sent out by mistake notifying the cancellation of flights on 8 September and other dates. If your booking still looks OK in MMB then you don't need to take further action. A cancelled flight should be shown in MMB with struck-through text. If your flight details are not struck through, then it probably hasn't actually been cancelled. You could check ba.com to see whether BA is still taking reservations for the flight in question. If so, then the flight has not been cancelled. You may also try checking on ExpertFlyer, if you have access, to see whether your flight appears still to be operating and whether BA is still taking reservations. However, some afternoon/evening flights on 8 September have genuinely been cancelled. See main thread for details.
Has a strike been called yet?
Yes. BALPA, the pilots' union, has voted in favour of strike action, and the Court of Appeal has rejected BA's submission to have the poll set aside, so the legal process is now over. The two parties went back into talks after the legal proceedings and those talks were expected to continue into the week of 5 August.
BALPA on 23 Aug announced strikes on Monday 9 September Tuesday 10 September and Friday 27 September.
Any further strikes normally require 2 weeks notice under UK legislation.
What flights may be affected?
LHR and LGW based flights. Not LCY or STN flights. Both cabin and flight crew are in dispute with BA, but the pilots (captains, senior first officers, first officers) are closest to strike action.
How long would a strike last?
The initial strikes are for two days the a single day, with normal working in between. Any other strikes could be of any length. It would be rare in the UK for there to be a full time strike.
What would happen to my flights if it is a strike day?
A range of options have been announced, see post 1551 below for more information: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/brit...l#post31451055
and BA Trade Site guidance here: https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb...kba?faqid=7594
Rebooking is now allowed on Iberia, AA, Finnair, JAL and Qatar. Within Europe EI and Vueling are also allowed. This is for both revenue and redemption flights.
and the FAQ on BA.com here (this includes information on BA Holidays bookings which are substantially different): https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb...st-information
Can I do anything with an existing booking now?
Yes. Your options are different depending on whether your flights are currently showing as cancelled or not. See the links above.
What about Heathrow staff - aren't their strikes planned there too?
Yes there is a separate dispute at the moment between Heathrow Airport (HAL) and their staff such as those who operate the security checkpoints. See the separate thread on the issue.
Am I protected by EC261 if there is a problem?
You are always covered by the Right to Care provisions of Regulation EC261. You could potentially be able to claim compensation for delays, cancellations and downgrades caused by BA staff action too, but not for HAL strikes (for cancellations only if there is flight is less than 14 day’s notice). See the main EC261 thread in the BA Forum Dashboard.
LHR/LGW pilots (BALPA) industrial action 9 Sep, 10 Sep, and 27 Sep
Jul 28, 2019, 2:43 pm
#661
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: The Factory 5th Floor
Posts: 319
I agree. No offence taken. There are children very much worse off and I acknowledge your point. I wont go into detail but it is the case that I, a single parent of modest means may not have the opportunity to do this again for reasons other than being either a single parent or of modest means. Nevertheless they have dreamed and what parent wants to see their children upset. Im not sure they will understand benchmarking with SAS pilots, debt accrued to train as a pilot or Sharesave schemes as justifiable reasons in my explanations to them for losing their holiday. Perhaps the head of BALPA would like to deliver the explanation in my stead.
Jul 28, 2019, 2:48 pm
#663
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: NT Australia
Programs: QF WP
Posts: 4,160
Lessons from my childhood
1) it’s important to learn early what disappointment is and how to cope with it
2) we went on lots of holidays. They were for my parents benefit not mine, and I have very limited recollections of any of them but it was held over us as a cost/stress they had incurred that we should be grateful for until their unfortunate demise
the best holiday we ever had was one year that we couldn’t go overseas for some reason (I can’t remember but it was outside of control, possibly a meltdown at the passport office), we went camping and for a road trip instead
your kids will get over it. BA and BALPA have been negotiating this since late last year and it was BA’s final “take it or leave it” offer delivered immediately before the school holidays that has resulted in votes in July and therefore strikes in August
you are blaming the wrong group and at the same time underestimating your kids resilience
if you ask nicely Alex Cruz might come round dressed in hi vis and do a musical number by way of apology. I’ll chip in for therapy afterwards if you like 😉
1) it’s important to learn early what disappointment is and how to cope with it
2) we went on lots of holidays. They were for my parents benefit not mine, and I have very limited recollections of any of them but it was held over us as a cost/stress they had incurred that we should be grateful for until their unfortunate demise
the best holiday we ever had was one year that we couldn’t go overseas for some reason (I can’t remember but it was outside of control, possibly a meltdown at the passport office), we went camping and for a road trip instead
your kids will get over it. BA and BALPA have been negotiating this since late last year and it was BA’s final “take it or leave it” offer delivered immediately before the school holidays that has resulted in votes in July and therefore strikes in August
you are blaming the wrong group and at the same time underestimating your kids resilience
if you ask nicely Alex Cruz might come round dressed in hi vis and do a musical number by way of apology. I’ll chip in for therapy afterwards if you like 😉
Jul 28, 2019, 2:52 pm
#664
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,596
You have been told over and over BA have said this is the final offer and you keep parroting the same line.
Jul 28, 2019, 2:54 pm
#665
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: The Factory 5th Floor
Posts: 319
As an aside, I also have a number I can phone if I ever get an inclination to have any more children
given that a lot of angst about strikes at school holiday time is evidently related to decisions in life that people have chosen to take....
nb there are no new territories of Australia
given that a lot of angst about strikes at school holiday time is evidently related to decisions in life that people have chosen to take....
nb there are no new territories of Australia
Given that a lot of angst about striking seems to be over accrued debt for training also related to decisions that people have chosen to take about borrowing from the usual type of bank.
You are of course right. For whatever reason I had Hong Kong in my head. Northern territory, Australia, I have to give you that one.
Jul 28, 2019, 2:55 pm
#666
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,596
I think you mean Northern Territory. BA employs people from around the world, including Australian pilots.
Jul 28, 2019, 2:58 pm
#667
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: NT Australia
Programs: QF WP
Posts: 4,160
Getting back on topic, I have a question
is there some obstacle to other industrial action in the UK- eg overtime bans, fueling/flying in such ways to maximise cost and waste, max power take offs etc? Potentially as costly to BA over a more prolonged period of time and less disruptive to pax
assuming Cruz doesn’t “do a Joyce” and ground the whole fleet because the pilots were protesting by wearing red ties 🙄🙄
is there some obstacle to other industrial action in the UK- eg overtime bans, fueling/flying in such ways to maximise cost and waste, max power take offs etc? Potentially as costly to BA over a more prolonged period of time and less disruptive to pax
assuming Cruz doesn’t “do a Joyce” and ground the whole fleet because the pilots were protesting by wearing red ties 🙄🙄
Jul 28, 2019, 3:02 pm
#668
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: NT Australia
Programs: QF WP
Posts: 4,160
i’m never going to change your mind on this, that much is obvious. But it would be nice for you to have the tiniest bit of understanding and empathy for someone other than you/yours or BA
Jul 28, 2019, 3:04 pm
#669
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,596
Getting back on topic, I have a question
is there some obstacle to other industrial action in the UK- eg overtime bans, fueling/flying in such ways to maximise cost and waste, max power take offs etc? Potentially as costly to BA over a more prolonged period of time and less disruptive to pax
assuming Cruz doesn’t “do a Joyce” and ground the whole fleet because the pilots were protesting by wearing red ties 🙄🙄
is there some obstacle to other industrial action in the UK- eg overtime bans, fueling/flying in such ways to maximise cost and waste, max power take offs etc? Potentially as costly to BA over a more prolonged period of time and less disruptive to pax
assuming Cruz doesn’t “do a Joyce” and ground the whole fleet because the pilots were protesting by wearing red ties 🙄🙄
If it is forced upon BALPA, best to get it over with in a short sharp shock.
Jul 28, 2019, 3:06 pm
#670
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Winchester
Programs: BAEC Gold
Posts: 8
Getting back on topic, I have a question
is there some obstacle to other industrial action in the UK- eg overtime bans, fueling/flying in such ways to maximise cost and waste, max power take offs etc? Potentially as costly to BA over a more prolonged period of time and less disruptive to pax
assuming Cruz doesn’t “do a Joyce” and ground the whole fleet because the pilots were protesting by wearing red ties 🙄🙄
is there some obstacle to other industrial action in the UK- eg overtime bans, fueling/flying in such ways to maximise cost and waste, max power take offs etc? Potentially as costly to BA over a more prolonged period of time and less disruptive to pax
assuming Cruz doesn’t “do a Joyce” and ground the whole fleet because the pilots were protesting by wearing red ties 🙄🙄
Jul 28, 2019, 3:13 pm
#671
Join Date: Oct 2017
Programs: BAEC Silver, Flying Blue Platinum; Hilton Gold, IHG Diamond, Marriott Titanium, Wyndham Diamond
Posts: 788
Can I please ask the mods to split this threads into one thread for people to discuss the rights and wrongs of the strike (which I can then ignore), and another for people to talk about the logistical issues of IRROPS, rebookings, and news as they come out? It's increasingly annoying to have to wade through a sea of irrelevant twaddle (on both sides) to get to the information.
Jul 28, 2019, 3:16 pm
#672
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Jan 2009
Programs: Battleaxe Alliance
Posts: 22,127
Can I please ask the mods to split this threads into one thread for people to discuss the rights and wrongs of the strike (which I can then ignore), and another for people to talk about the logistical issues of IRROPS, rebookings, and news as they come out? It's increasingly annoying to have to wade through a sea of irrelevant twaddle (on both sides) to get to the information.
There are currently no known logistical issues or rebooking policies (not yet).
LTN Phobia
Moderator: BA forum
Jul 28, 2019, 3:24 pm
#673
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: The Factory 5th Floor
Posts: 319
Lessons from my childhood
1) it’s important to learn early what disappointment is and how to cope with it
2) we went on lots of holidays. They were for my parents benefit not mine, and I have very limited recollections of any of them but it was held over us as a cost/stress they had incurred that we should be grateful for until their unfortunate demise
the best holiday we ever had was one year that we couldn’t go overseas for some reason (I can’t remember but it was outside of control, possibly a meltdown at the passport office), we went camping and for a road trip instead
your kids will get over it. BA and BALPA have been negotiating this since late last year and it was BA’s final “take it or leave it” offer delivered immediately before the school holidays that has resulted in votes in July and therefore strikes in August
you are blaming the wrong group and at the same time underestimating your kids resilience
if you ask nicely Alex Cruz might come round dressed in hi vis and do a musical number by way of apology. I’ll chip in for therapy afterwards if you like 😉
1) it’s important to learn early what disappointment is and how to cope with it
2) we went on lots of holidays. They were for my parents benefit not mine, and I have very limited recollections of any of them but it was held over us as a cost/stress they had incurred that we should be grateful for until their unfortunate demise
the best holiday we ever had was one year that we couldn’t go overseas for some reason (I can’t remember but it was outside of control, possibly a meltdown at the passport office), we went camping and for a road trip instead
your kids will get over it. BA and BALPA have been negotiating this since late last year and it was BA’s final “take it or leave it” offer delivered immediately before the school holidays that has resulted in votes in July and therefore strikes in August
you are blaming the wrong group and at the same time underestimating your kids resilience
if you ask nicely Alex Cruz might come round dressed in hi vis and do a musical number by way of apology. I’ll chip in for therapy afterwards if you like 😉
Lessons from adult life.
1. Its important to have realistic expectations. Its important to learn how to deal with resultant disappointments. In fact, using your own logic, you should have learned by now. If 12% over 3 years is disappointing then I'm sure there must be somewhere offering more in the UK. There isn't? More disappointing still.
2, Do not look a gift horse in the mouth. Especially if nobody else currently can afford to own a horse, paddock and field but yourself.
3. Thank you for your empathy concerning the children's disappointment. I'll pass it along. I'd avoid a career in psychotherapy though, it doesn't seem to be your particular bent.
4. Never make assumptions. I am no fan of a certain CEO, with or without reflective jacket. Either way, it is a failure of industrial relations.
5. Finally, childhood is about memories. I'm sorry yours were not apparently outstanding but you should not expect me to inflict the same level of drudgery on my own children. I don't want my own children to get over it. I want them to experience and live it. Please don't assume you know my children better than me. I'm not sure you would feel any different in my shoes. We just have different vested interests.
your basic issue is that you don’t feel they should be able to strike over choices they have made. I personally don’t feel the right to strike should be considered an outrage because different people have made other choices
i’m never going to change your mind on this, that much is obvious. But it would be nice for you to have the tiniest bit of understanding and empathy for someone other than you/yours or BA
OK. So go ahead. Assume I have a tiny level of understanding and explain to me why it is justifiable to strike in the peak month of August after receiving an 11.5% pay offer over 3 years. My 'tiny' level of rudimentary understanding assumes that BALPA have played a waiting game till now and will not sit down with the employer currently as every day, forward bookings are being destroyed and customers with current bookings are nervous and they believe that increases pressure on BA . My speculation is that they have asked BA for something they cannot get in the ultimate hope of an even higher pay offer, whilst perversely negotiating for a lower offer plus shares. I would like you to understand that I am not in any way aligned with BA either as an employee or a fan of any of its policies. I am simply a customer (regrettably) who can see two sides arguing and I have chosen who to blame for the matter and who is being most unreasonable. So please explain where my tiny level of understanding is wrong, in some detail rather than with vagueness please, since your understanding is clearly claimed as vastly superior to my own.
Finally, if a person voted to strike on the grounds of the debt he/she accrued to train as a pilot and is seeking a proportionately higher pay rise to pay that debt off at a faster rate then yes I think that would be without merit. It seems that some have done exactly that from more than one comment on here.
Last edited by Prospero; Jul 29, 2019 at 4:02 pm Reason: Merge consecutive posts
Jul 28, 2019, 5:44 pm
#674
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Jan 2009
Programs: Battleaxe Alliance
Posts: 22,127
Finally, if a person voted to strike on the grounds of the debt he/she accrued to train as a pilot and is seeking a proportionately higher pay rise to pay that debt off at a faster rate then yes I think that would be without merit. It seems that some have done exactly that from more than one comment on here.
Pilots are sometimes (or even often?) maligned by the general public (and very often the airline management) as over-paid, under-worked privileged bunch of whingers, so some are making the point that the cost of entry to the occupation can be quite high and taking that into account, their pay isn't that high* (and often the ceiling amount is quite low in reality), or that pilots' jobs aren't as rosy as many people in the general public wish to believe.
*In fact first officers' pay can be rather poor in particular
Anyway, to me, it's just market forces. I suspect, on this occasion, pilots have the upper hand given market conditions, and the very long period it takes to get a pilot (let alone a captain).
Jul 28, 2019, 6:03 pm
#675
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: London Stratford, E7
Programs: BAEC Gold! Thanks to FT
Posts: 3,385
If you (or whoever) choose to get into debt to follow a chosen path that's a choice made by you (or whoever) but it is not the function of the airline or indirectly, the customers, to bail you (or whoever) out. If you (or whoever) accrue £70,000 debt then the debt is your (or whoever) responsibility, nobody else's. Police officers joining now get paid relatively poorly compared to once upon a time and forget section houses. They are required also not to be in debt to any extent as that would leave them open to being corrupted. They require to work towards a degree if they do not have one already. Student Doctors, say an F1, work all the hours God sends for not as much as you might think. Soldiers, well they get shot at for a pittance whilst trying to avoid IEDs. The pressures and requirement for retention measures are equal to, and in fact far supersede ATPLs. Try going into your local state school and speaking to the Head. In these schools, cover teachers are everywhere, based there to take any class, not even their own specialism. It is little more than crowd control rather than actual teaching. The pressures and stresses in these jobs are huge. Public Service is in crisis and our manufacturing and retail industries are dying with redundancies announced every day. Their reward, whilst I accept not the pilots benchmark, is not great. These will be the people impacted by industrial action. Would you swap. Of course you wouldn't.
You may well be right. The pilots may have a better hand I suspect you are right. but it might be one that can only be played once and with some regret. Strategy-wise they run the risk of alienating just about everybody.
You may well be right. The pilots may have a better hand I suspect you are right. but it might be one that can only be played once and with some regret. Strategy-wise they run the risk of alienating just about everybody.
In the meantime Sr Cruz and Walsh are getting bonus and pay packets some can only dream of whilst overseeing IT cuts that have caused no service for BA over a May Bank Holiday and the Data Protection breach. This cost BA £58m and £183 m respectively. I don’t know how much the cost to BA be if they met BALPAs demands but pretty sure the £241m that they spaffed away due to outsourcing their IT would help a fair bit.
I also don’t know the daily cost to BA of a strike in refunding fares, rebooking passengers and duty of care will extend to. I’d hazard a guess maybe £30-40m a day, possibly more though they will of course not be paying salaries.
Its generally the case that people against unions and strikers are a bit jealous because it affects ‘their hard earnt’ Holiday and they don’t have a union strong enough to negotiate similar packages.