BA038 [Beijing - LHR] refuelling at LGW
Nov 18, 2018, 12:43 pm
#46
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: New York/Belfast/Montreal/Wichita/Berlin
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Posts: 331
Flight radar can only detect how quickly you move across the ground via GPS. Of course, the plane is going faster than that in the air (at 500 kts), it's just that the parcel of air it is in is moving backwards away from the destination by 100 kts. Meaning the apparent speed on the ground is only 400 kts. Leading to a longer flight time and increased fuel burn.
Average headwind I chose is just an example, but likely in the order of magnitude for the flight. It's why eastbound transatlantics are quick, with a high ground speed. Due to average wind patterns.
Nov 18, 2018, 12:57 pm
#47
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Economy, mostly :(
Programs: Skywards Gold
Posts: 7,804
The phrase originates from the boating world and it quite certainly is "pan-pan"
Nov 18, 2018, 12:58 pm
#48
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: NT Australia
Programs: QF WP
Posts: 4,165
I read with interest all the talk about declaring some kind of (em)urgency to get out of the stack and a straight in approach
there was a case recently this side of the world with United airlines declaring an emergency due to minimum fuel. Straight in approach, no holds
opinion split roughly 50:50 in the flying and general public as to whether that was an appropriate mayday or not
seems to me like damned if you do and damned if you dont!!
there was a case recently this side of the world with United airlines declaring an emergency due to minimum fuel. Straight in approach, no holds
opinion split roughly 50:50 in the flying and general public as to whether that was an appropriate mayday or not
seems to me like damned if you do and damned if you dont!!
Nov 18, 2018, 1:00 pm
#49
Join Date: Jul 2017
Programs: Mucci Chevalier des Internautes Amables; BAEC
Posts: 979
But Im interested... How much fuel would be loaded, and how much would this cost? A lot of fuel would still be needed for take-off, wouldnt it?
Nov 18, 2018, 1:07 pm
#50
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: GLA
Programs: BA Silver
Posts: 2,970
I read with interest all the talk about declaring some kind of (em)urgency to get out of the stack and a straight in approach
there was a case recently this side of the world with United airlines declaring an emergency due to minimum fuel. Straight in approach, no holds
opinion split roughly 50:50 in the flying and general public as to whether that was an appropriate mayday or not
seems to me like damned if you do and damned if you dont!!
there was a case recently this side of the world with United airlines declaring an emergency due to minimum fuel. Straight in approach, no holds
opinion split roughly 50:50 in the flying and general public as to whether that was an appropriate mayday or not
seems to me like damned if you do and damned if you dont!!
Nov 18, 2018, 1:10 pm
#51
Join Date: Feb 2018
Programs: BAEC Gold, Hilton Diamond, Bonvoy Silver
Posts: 175
Here is one controllers take on it. (In short, he says that everyone should use MAYDAY to declare an emergency and PAN-PAN for an urgent situation.)
Last edited by Infinite Possibilities; Nov 18, 2018 at 1:13 pm Reason: Added a brief summary of the linked article.
Nov 18, 2018, 1:15 pm
#52
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,074
The US teaches PAN-PAN to both pilots and controllers. So, everyone will (or should) recognize that.
Here is one controllers take on it. (In short, he says that everyone should use MAYDAY to declare an emergency and PAN-PAN for an urgent situation.)
Nov 18, 2018, 1:24 pm
#53
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: UK
Programs: BA Blue
Posts: 44
PAN calls are no longer used to declare fuel states any more.
The term 'Minimum fuel' is now used when the flight crew have committed to an airport where a change in clearance or an increase of approach time would result in landing with less thet it's planned final reserve fuel.
No priority is given but any change in clearance or increased delay will be relayed to the crew from ATC.
If at any time the crew believe that they will land with less than their planned final reserve fuel then they must declare a 'Mayday'.
Here is a video explanation of the procedure
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhSoyZgFkfo
Adj
The term 'Minimum fuel' is now used when the flight crew have committed to an airport where a change in clearance or an increase of approach time would result in landing with less thet it's planned final reserve fuel.
No priority is given but any change in clearance or increased delay will be relayed to the crew from ATC.
If at any time the crew believe that they will land with less than their planned final reserve fuel then they must declare a 'Mayday'.
Here is a video explanation of the procedure
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhSoyZgFkfo
Adj
Nov 18, 2018, 1:25 pm
#54
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: LHR/ATH
Programs: Amex Platinum, LH SEN (Gold), BA Bronze
Posts: 4,489
PAN isn't really a major issue to be concerned by ATC, it's more 'information' so doesnt mean you can call a PAN and clear all the traffic ahead of you and land when you feel like it! Running low on gas usually means diverting to another airport, which happens reasonably often in inclement weather.
It is up to the Captain (in coordination with dispatcher/flight ops) to decide how much fuel he wants, he has the final responsibility when he signs 'the sheet'. So yes, if he miscalculates, he has to divert, which is what seems to have happened here, unless there was an unmentioned mechanical failure in the plane that forced it to fly lower and burn more fuel, and force the divert in this case.
Nov 18, 2018, 1:30 pm
#56
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Around somewhere
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Posts: 714
Nov 18, 2018, 1:31 pm
#57
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: LHR/ATH
Programs: Amex Platinum, LH SEN (Gold), BA Bronze
Posts: 4,489
Is that even allowed? My brother got diverted to LGW from LHR once and the passengers were not allowed to disembark, and had to sit on the plane for 2 hours until they got in line for some more fuel and then on to LHR.
Nov 18, 2018, 1:36 pm
#58
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,349
Nov 18, 2018, 2:07 pm
#60
Join Date: Aug 2005
Programs: BA Gold, HHonors, Virgin
Posts: 766
PAN calls are no longer used to declare fuel states any more.
The term 'Minimum fuel' is now used when the flight crew have committed to an airport where a change in clearance or an increase of approach time would result in landing with less thet it's planned final reserve fuel.
No priority is given but any change in clearance or increased delay will be relayed to the crew from ATC.
If at any time the crew believe that they will land with less than their planned final reserve fuel then they must declare a 'Mayday'.
Here is a video explanation of the procedure
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhSoyZgFkfo
Adj
The term 'Minimum fuel' is now used when the flight crew have committed to an airport where a change in clearance or an increase of approach time would result in landing with less thet it's planned final reserve fuel.
No priority is given but any change in clearance or increased delay will be relayed to the crew from ATC.
If at any time the crew believe that they will land with less than their planned final reserve fuel then they must declare a 'Mayday'.
Here is a video explanation of the procedure
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhSoyZgFkfo
Adj