Feeling p1ssed at KUL
May 25, 2016, 12:23 pm
#31
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As a general FYI (in case this happens to me in the future), would I be within my rights to say that I don't accept the downgrade and there are two seats on [XX airline] departing in 1h and that I require you to book me onto that flight? Or can they make you wait for the next BA flight? Or just downgrade you and say tough lucky, claim the compensation?
I once had the station manager try to downgrade me HKG-LHR and I refused and said I'd move to F on CX if they wanted to rebook me. He backed off so I'm wondering whether that was a legitimate right or whether he just thought he'd find someone else who'd put up less of fuss.
I once had the station manager try to downgrade me HKG-LHR and I refused and said I'd move to F on CX if they wanted to rebook me. He backed off so I'm wondering whether that was a legitimate right or whether he just thought he'd find someone else who'd put up less of fuss.
You cannot "require" anything.
If BA values you or the staff are well-trained, they will laugh behind your back. Otherwise, in your face. You are neither entitled to be rerouted on another carrier or even another BA flight. However, it is possible that BA might bargain with you for such a reroute in lieu of EC 261/2004 compensation, and there are many who would willingly do so, particularly on routes where there is minimal delay. Rerouting onto another carrier will be harder than onto another BA service (or a JV such as AA).
On a broader note, there may well be individuals of great commercial value to BA. But, they are trumped by large commercial enterprises who generate multi-millions / year in revenue. Similarly, in many countries, government officials can bring a great deal of pressure to bear for their creature comforts and there is little to be done about it.
May 25, 2016, 12:32 pm
#33
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Begin Rant ...
On return F flight for wife's birthday. Couldnt OLCI so went to The check in desk at KUL to be told we are now in J. Original explanation was that flight overbooked and we are on a redemption flight so we are downgraded. During further conversations the duty manager changed his story several times. Broken seats and various other problems wee raised.
Really annoyed because the reason for going to KUL was the 789 F experience, because it was a treat for my wife and because the KUL staff repeatedly lied to us.
On return F flight for wife's birthday. Couldnt OLCI so went to The check in desk at KUL to be told we are now in J. Original explanation was that flight overbooked and we are on a redemption flight so we are downgraded. During further conversations the duty manager changed his story several times. Broken seats and various other problems wee raised.
Really annoyed because the reason for going to KUL was the 789 F experience, because it was a treat for my wife and because the KUL staff repeatedly lied to us.
is bang on the money - but I do not think that this was overbooked other than at the out station then they took control of the flight. I have seen this happen in various parts of the world - Africa mainly but not exclusively. It is a very serious accusation, but it happens. If someone has rolled up and flashed cash around then the weakest link will be those who have not paid cash (I know that's not true but I can imagine the way that their minds work).
I cannot tell if you have flown or not yet so this advice may be be spurious - I
would take this up with the CSD on board and show him your paperwork. This needs to be logged everywhere. Show him your original seat assignments, crew loathe this sort of thing.
I am wondering "aloud" whether BA and other carriers are getting more passengers because people are leary about using MH? I do not know but I looked in ExpertFlyer and both airlines seem remarkably full in F for some reason. I'd be spitting tacks if I were you. I am not defending BA but I think that some hanky-panky has gone on and they've picked on the wrong customer.
May 25, 2016, 12:36 pm
#34
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EU 261 makes no reference to how the fare was paid for.
It states 'the price of the ticket ' in Article 10 (downgrades).
It is clear that the price of the ticket was xxx avios plus £yyy cash. And the reimbursement is 75% of both.
Nor does the regulation make any distinction between a cash fare and a redemption and different treatment depending on which was used. The regulation applies equally to both.
It states 'the price of the ticket ' in Article 10 (downgrades).
It is clear that the price of the ticket was xxx avios plus £yyy cash. And the reimbursement is 75% of both.
Nor does the regulation make any distinction between a cash fare and a redemption and different treatment depending on which was used. The regulation applies equally to both.
May 25, 2016, 12:50 pm
#35
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My dad had a similar issue many years ago where he was on a miles ticket in shorthaul coming back from our holiday early. He was connecting to a Longhaul in F (though not on the same ticket) and he (a GCH) was going to be bumped due to the flight being oversold. He said that whilst it might be possible to take the later flight and probably make his other flight he wasn't about to do so. He asked why he\d been picked and it appeared to be because he was on a miles ticket. Unhappy with this news he spoke to the station manager and explained the situation. His seat was reinstated shortly afterwards and he made the F flight.
I'm not surprised that the OP is pissed and in his place I would be too.
I'm not surprised that the OP is pissed and in his place I would be too.
May 25, 2016, 1:01 pm
#36
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I am rather surprised the OP was not offered an alternative carrier, unless, as has been suggested, something nefarious was afoot.
FWIW I flew LHR-KUL-LHR last weekend on MH in F on the MH3/4, both A380, on Avios, and my first trip on MH. It was 100% full in all cabins on the way out on Saturday, with two opups in the 8 F seats.
On the way back on Sunday it was about 30% full in Y, 85% in J and.... 12.5% full in F. Yes, I was their only F pax for 13.5 hours. The downside is that they only loaded the one caviar as they knew there was only one pax. No seconds for me!
Not wishing to rub it in, but best of all, there were flowers in both F and J latrines.
I was not expecting much from seeing the frequent comments about MH cutbacks, but I was very pleasantly surprised by the whole experience, including the product itself and the crews. While it's no SQ or CX, I significantly preferred it to an LHR-SIN-LHR trip on BA in F on an A380 three weeks earlier.
I apologise for my brief transgression, I know it's frowned upon to compare other carriers' F here on the BA forum.
FWIW I flew LHR-KUL-LHR last weekend on MH in F on the MH3/4, both A380, on Avios, and my first trip on MH. It was 100% full in all cabins on the way out on Saturday, with two opups in the 8 F seats.
On the way back on Sunday it was about 30% full in Y, 85% in J and.... 12.5% full in F. Yes, I was their only F pax for 13.5 hours. The downside is that they only loaded the one caviar as they knew there was only one pax. No seconds for me!
Not wishing to rub it in, but best of all, there were flowers in both F and J latrines.
I was not expecting much from seeing the frequent comments about MH cutbacks, but I was very pleasantly surprised by the whole experience, including the product itself and the crews. While it's no SQ or CX, I significantly preferred it to an LHR-SIN-LHR trip on BA in F on an A380 three weeks earlier.
I apologise for my brief transgression, I know it's frowned upon to compare other carriers' F here on the BA forum.
May 25, 2016, 1:02 pm
#37
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I find it extraordinary that a GCH and a GGL would be bumped, irrespective of how you bought your tickets.
Understand that the local station manager is put in a very difficult situation when the cabin is overbooked but surely there must be guidelines about the order in which downgrading of passengers is managed?
!
Understand that the local station manager is put in a very difficult situation when the cabin is overbooked but surely there must be guidelines about the order in which downgrading of passengers is managed?
!
May 25, 2016, 1:13 pm
#38
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May 25, 2016, 1:14 pm
#39
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But what can the ground staff do if the route is full? They clearly are not empowered to endorse over to MAS or Singapore, and that'd put them at risk of losing an F customer for life!
With regards to the fare paid, I suspect it was the most important factor in the downgrade. The 75% is based on what you paid, not the $0 fare. So (depending on Amex vouchers / day of week etc), two F returns could cost 560,000 Avios + £ 1,017 in fees. If I didn't get suitable apologies from BA, I would be submitting a claim for 75% of this cost based on my EU261 rates and, because you can't claim for Avios, the cost of purchasing the equivalent - i.e. about £5000 all-in.
This is much less than BA would be paying out otherwise, and it seems from other reports they've been targeting passengers on error fares & 2-4-1 vouchers before touching others.
With regards to the fare paid, I suspect it was the most important factor in the downgrade. The 75% is based on what you paid, not the $0 fare. So (depending on Amex vouchers / day of week etc), two F returns could cost 560,000 Avios + £ 1,017 in fees. If I didn't get suitable apologies from BA, I would be submitting a claim for 75% of this cost based on my EU261 rates and, because you can't claim for Avios, the cost of purchasing the equivalent - i.e. about £5000 all-in.
This is much less than BA would be paying out otherwise, and it seems from other reports they've been targeting passengers on error fares & 2-4-1 vouchers before touching others.
BTW, many airline award tickets (I don't know about BA) are marked as non-endorsable so that they cannot (easily) be rebooked onto other carriers, sometimes even including JV/codeshare partners as well as fellow alliance members.
ADDED: Another pragmatic reason for picking the OP might have been that they needed to downgrade two passengers so they looked for two people traveling together so as to avoid breaking up a family or group and also to avoid dealing with two single passengers rather than just one couple. Of course, this violates BA rules, but it might seem logical to staff at an outstation.
Last edited by MSPeconomist; May 25, 2016 at 1:20 pm
May 25, 2016, 1:19 pm
#40
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How do they calculate the EU261 compensation if a 241 was used?
Potentially 75% of 119000 Avios (off peak, or 140000 Avios peak) + 75% of 2xinbound fees could be only 89,250 Avios+£287.
I can't see how you can give 75% of a 241 or value it, unless BA match the 89,250 Avios, but would they be required to do that in law?
Potentially 75% of 119000 Avios (off peak, or 140000 Avios peak) + 75% of 2xinbound fees could be only 89,250 Avios+£287.
I can't see how you can give 75% of a 241 or value it, unless BA match the 89,250 Avios, but would they be required to do that in law?
May 25, 2016, 1:32 pm
#41
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I don't know how a court would find, but what you suggest is certainly one argument that has considerable merit and one I would certainly aim to advance.
May 25, 2016, 1:40 pm
#43
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Im booked F return to KUL in December, returning early January.
Ive used a Joker+Amex+GUF2+Avios...Despite being GGL and my wife a GCH, I imagine we'll be quite a way down the line - high CIV or not.
Expect a potential DYKWIA story in January 2017!
Ive used a Joker+Amex+GUF2+Avios...Despite being GGL and my wife a GCH, I imagine we'll be quite a way down the line - high CIV or not.
Expect a potential DYKWIA story in January 2017!
May 25, 2016, 2:08 pm
#44
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Hi All
My first post (a long time lurker - think that's the phrase), but this thread prompted me finally to join in.
I recently travelled on a 2 for 1 on the KUL route in F. I was travelling with an old friend on our annual trip to watch rugby somewhere (Singapore this time). All went well on the way out. Back from KUL, we checked in without problem (1K and 2K), but on boarding were told by a rather belligerent gate manager that 2K was broken and my friend was downgraded. Much consternation at the gate as you can imagine, but my friend is a good soul and accepted the downgrade (and the £500 too). When I went to my seat I was surprised to see a Malaysian lady sitting in 2K which was not broken. I explained the situation and my surprise to the FA who was non-plussed - the flight crew had seen my friend on their original manifest in 2K and then saw a whole load of moves and wondered what was going on. Yes 2A was broken, but not 2K. She called over the CSM who was equally confused. There were empty seats in First so he didn't understand what was going on either. The CSM went to find my friend and put him in 1E - all solved, plus £500. The flight crew were excellent in sorting this out and for the rest of the flight, but like the OP I am completely at a loss as to what was going on with the local KUL team. All very strange...
My first post (a long time lurker - think that's the phrase), but this thread prompted me finally to join in.
I recently travelled on a 2 for 1 on the KUL route in F. I was travelling with an old friend on our annual trip to watch rugby somewhere (Singapore this time). All went well on the way out. Back from KUL, we checked in without problem (1K and 2K), but on boarding were told by a rather belligerent gate manager that 2K was broken and my friend was downgraded. Much consternation at the gate as you can imagine, but my friend is a good soul and accepted the downgrade (and the £500 too). When I went to my seat I was surprised to see a Malaysian lady sitting in 2K which was not broken. I explained the situation and my surprise to the FA who was non-plussed - the flight crew had seen my friend on their original manifest in 2K and then saw a whole load of moves and wondered what was going on. Yes 2A was broken, but not 2K. She called over the CSM who was equally confused. There were empty seats in First so he didn't understand what was going on either. The CSM went to find my friend and put him in 1E - all solved, plus £500. The flight crew were excellent in sorting this out and for the rest of the flight, but like the OP I am completely at a loss as to what was going on with the local KUL team. All very strange...
Last edited by Surreyboy; May 25, 2016 at 2:14 pm
May 25, 2016, 2:17 pm
#45
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Hi All
My first post (a long time lurker - think that's the phrase), but this thread prompted me finally to join in.
I recently travelled on a 2 for 1 on the KUL route in F. I was travelling with an old friend on our annual trip to watch rugby somewhere (Singapore this time). All went well on the way out. Back from KUL, we checked in without problem (1K and 2K), but on boarding were told by a rather belligerent gate manager that 2K was broken and my friend was downgraded. Much consternation at the gate as you can imagine, but my friend is a good soul and accepted the downgrade (and the £500 too). When I went to my seat I was surprised to see a Malaysian lady sitting in 2K which was not broken. I explained the situation and my surprise to the FA who was non-plussed - the flight crew had seen my friend on their original manifest in 2K and then saw a whole load of moves and wondered what was going on. Yes 2A was broken, but not 2K. She called over the CSM who was equally confused. There were empty seats in First so he didn't understand what was going on either. The CSM went to find my friend and put him in 1E - all solved, plus £500. The flight crew were excellent in sorting this out and for the rest of the flight, but like the OP I am completely at a loss as to what was going on with the local KUL team. All very strange...
My first post (a long time lurker - think that's the phrase), but this thread prompted me finally to join in.
I recently travelled on a 2 for 1 on the KUL route in F. I was travelling with an old friend on our annual trip to watch rugby somewhere (Singapore this time). All went well on the way out. Back from KUL, we checked in without problem (1K and 2K), but on boarding were told by a rather belligerent gate manager that 2K was broken and my friend was downgraded. Much consternation at the gate as you can imagine, but my friend is a good soul and accepted the downgrade (and the £500 too). When I went to my seat I was surprised to see a Malaysian lady sitting in 2K which was not broken. I explained the situation and my surprise to the FA who was non-plussed - the flight crew had seen my friend on their original manifest in 2K and then saw a whole load of moves and wondered what was going on. Yes 2A was broken, but not 2K. She called over the CSM who was equally confused. There were empty seats in First so he didn't understand what was going on either. The CSM went to find my friend and put him in 1E - all solved, plus £500. The flight crew were excellent in sorting this out and for the rest of the flight, but like the OP I am completely at a loss as to what was going on with the local KUL team. All very strange...
Some fascinating context you've added here. Yes, all very strange! It would be very interesting to know what really went on both in your case and the OP's.