Feeling p1ssed at KUL
Jun 30, 2016, 12:39 pm
#211
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http://www.iftta.org/news/cjeu-clari...ing-air-travel
"In a recently published judgement, the European Court of Justice has clarfied the rules applying to downgrading of air passagners according to Reg. (EC) No 261/2004. The court held that where a passenger is downgraded on a flight, the price to be taken into account in determining the reimbursement for the passenger affected is the price of the flight on which he was downgraded unless that price is not indicated on the ticket entitling him to transport on that flight, in which case it must be based on the part of the price of the ticket corresponding to the quotient resulting from the distance of that flight and the total distance which the passenger is entitled to travel.
The reimbursement solely relates to the price of the flight itself, thus excluding taxes and charges indicated on the ticket, as long as neither the requirement to pay those taxes and charges nor their amount depends on the class for which that ticket has been purchased."
"In a recently published judgement, the European Court of Justice has clarfied the rules applying to downgrading of air passagners according to Reg. (EC) No 261/2004. The court held that where a passenger is downgraded on a flight, the price to be taken into account in determining the reimbursement for the passenger affected is the price of the flight on which he was downgraded unless that price is not indicated on the ticket entitling him to transport on that flight, in which case it must be based on the part of the price of the ticket corresponding to the quotient resulting from the distance of that flight and the total distance which the passenger is entitled to travel.
The reimbursement solely relates to the price of the flight itself, thus excluding taxes and charges indicated on the ticket, as long as neither the requirement to pay those taxes and charges nor their amount depends on the class for which that ticket has been purchased."
Jun 30, 2016, 12:39 pm
#212
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So, if I understand that correctly - no refund on taxes if downgraded from F to J for example, as they're the same for both classes. But if downgraded from J to Y, where taxes are lower, then that would be grounds for a refund of the difference?
If so, then it seems logical enough.
If so, then it seems logical enough.
Jun 30, 2016, 12:42 pm
#213
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The material you quote seems to refer too fare components, so that one would look at the fare construction on the receipt, and for the mileage ratios use only the segments that are part of the same fare component as the downgraded segment in the calculation.
Jun 30, 2016, 12:48 pm
#214
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As this is the case, the EU Commission have recently issued a document which helps to clear up any uncertainty. On page 19, paragraph D, of the below link it states the refund is due on the flight the passenger has been downgraded on:
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/themes...16)3502_en.pdf
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/themes...16)3502_en.pdf
Jun 30, 2016, 1:02 pm
#215
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The new case, for which I will need to alter the main EC261 case, is to be found here, and I quote the two names it is known by to assist searching. Steef Mennens v Emirates Direktion für Deutschland, Meenens versus Emirates.
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...CJ0255&from=EN
It is disappointing from a passenger perspective, it's more or less the tightest ruling possible. The thing to watch - on longhaul - is the difference in carrier surcharges between cabins, and also APD. It will apply to this case.
Jun 30, 2016, 4:41 pm
#217
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Do BA fuel surcharges typically vary between F and J?
I suppose interesting side effect of the judgement is the trade-off between taking a downgrade and saying you'll wait for the next available flight with your class of booking available. Maybe, just to be a PITA, I'll tell airline X I'll pass on the shorthaul downgrade that I'll only get compensated £30 for, and they can delay me and pay me delay compensation instead (if I'm right in assuming that I'd still be entitled to this as the offer was not comparable to what was booked - I await a possible educational reply...)
I suppose interesting side effect of the judgement is the trade-off between taking a downgrade and saying you'll wait for the next available flight with your class of booking available. Maybe, just to be a PITA, I'll tell airline X I'll pass on the shorthaul downgrade that I'll only get compensated £30 for, and they can delay me and pay me delay compensation instead (if I'm right in assuming that I'd still be entitled to this as the offer was not comparable to what was booked - I await a possible educational reply...)
Jun 30, 2016, 4:45 pm
#218
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Jun 30, 2016, 5:03 pm
#219
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Hmm. So the latest judgement seems to be all about "reimbursement" until Para 26 where suddenly its saying Art10 is about "compensation". 
Article 10 of the Regulation says its aiming to re-imburse.
Hopefully someone will be along and de-mistify
This takes me back to the days where my work involved 'clarifications'; a word which took on a similar reverse meaning to 'enhancement' on this board.
Article 10 of the Regulation says its aiming to re-imburse.
Hopefully someone will be along and de-mistify
This takes me back to the days where my work involved 'clarifications'; a word which took on a similar reverse meaning to 'enhancement' on this board.
Jul 1, 2016, 1:55 am
#220
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Thanks for that but if my claim was started before 22nd June should I be compensated by the rules in place at the time of my claim? The only reason I haven't had the taxes refunded is because BA have taken over a month to deal with my complaint - probably because they were waiting for this ruling.
Did they ever previously agree to refund taxes and fees to you?
Jul 1, 2016, 2:09 am
#221
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The rules haven't changed, they've just been clarified and as such technically the guidance applies retrospectively as clarification of the original intent of the regulation.
Jul 1, 2016, 3:43 am
#222
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Just skimmed through this thread.
So this new EU "guidance", by using the word "charges" as well as taxes, effectively means airlines don't have to refund any of the cash component on an Avios booking?
So this new EU "guidance", by using the word "charges" as well as taxes, effectively means airlines don't have to refund any of the cash component on an Avios booking?
Jul 1, 2016, 3:47 am
#223
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Jul 1, 2016, 4:10 am
#224
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The large and arbitrary nature of surcharges on BA would mean I would still include these in a court claim, though obviously with a less than 100% (but more than 0%!) chance of this being allowed by a judge.
Jul 1, 2016, 4:17 am
#225
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If the 'charges' were excluded from the reimbursement calculation there would be nothigng to stop an airline increasing them but reducing the base fare.