Ex-EU: what happens if BA cancel the outbound flight?
Oct 29, 2014, 2:52 pm
#16
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Wedged somewhere between BTS and VIE ✈
Programs: Star Alliance Gold (A3 Gold), Oneworld Emerald (BA Gold), Hilton Diamond
Posts: 6,342
I think you have misunderstood positioning tactics. Back-to-back is fine usually since if your positioning flight is delayed the first leg of the exEU will be similarly delayed since the plane still has to go there and turn around. Equally going he day before is fine as you have said. However, the OP's friend was doing neither of those things so left themselves in a very precarious position.
Oct 29, 2014, 2:59 pm
#17
Ambassador, British Airways; FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Leeds, UK
Programs: BA GGL/CCR, GfL, HH Diamond
Posts: 43,383
Where do you think the inbound is going to come from? It will still need to come from LHR. They aren't going to send out an empty A319 to CPH for example just to bring the inbound passengers in. Well, it is very unlikely anyway. If you want to do same day positioning and first leg of an exEU, back-to-back is the best way - as long as you can actually do a back-to-back as a passenger at the EU airport of course.
Oct 29, 2014, 3:07 pm
#18
Join Date: Jan 2005
Programs: BA Gold, AA Lifetime Gold 1.8mm, IC Spire Ambassador, Hilton Diamond, SPG Gold et al
Posts: 4,350
Oct 29, 2014, 3:08 pm
#19
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Wedged somewhere between BTS and VIE ✈
Programs: Star Alliance Gold (A3 Gold), Oneworld Emerald (BA Gold), Hilton Diamond
Posts: 6,342
Must get some odd looks from the cabin crew sometimes though, like haven't I seen you somewhere before?! 
Oct 29, 2014, 3:13 pm
#20
Join Date: Jun 2011
Programs: BAEC Gold, HHonors Gold, Marriot Bonvoy Gold, MeliaRewards Gold, Radisson Gold
Posts: 817
It's either technically correct or it isn't. The policy to which angatol refers to isn't one which has had much airing here, so it would be interesting to know whether that has been accurately reported because it could change our common understanding.
If it is technically correct, then there are good reasons that BA could rely on to try to defend to the hilt any legal challenge to its approach. Flights are not guaranteed to operate and schedules are not guaranteed to be met, and that's all that's happened in the OP's friend's case. He didn't buy a LHR-AMS-LHR-HKG ticket, but chose instead a LHR-AMS ticket and a separate AMS-LHR-HKG ticket. What obliges BA to treat the latter in the same way as the former?
As it happens, I believe that BA has policies to deal with failed BA-BA "connections" on separate tickets (and I have had to make use of these myself), but I would personally put these into the "goodwill" category.
If it is technically correct, then there are good reasons that BA could rely on to try to defend to the hilt any legal challenge to its approach. Flights are not guaranteed to operate and schedules are not guaranteed to be met, and that's all that's happened in the OP's friend's case. He didn't buy a LHR-AMS-LHR-HKG ticket, but chose instead a LHR-AMS ticket and a separate AMS-LHR-HKG ticket. What obliges BA to treat the latter in the same way as the former?
As it happens, I believe that BA has policies to deal with failed BA-BA "connections" on separate tickets (and I have had to make use of these myself), but I would personally put these into the "goodwill" category.
I realise this is is all hypothetical, however I for one wouldn't hesitate to challenge it, legally or otherwise, if I were refused assistance (goodwill or not) in a situation where BA were operating both flights.
Irrespective of whether scheduled flights are guaranteed - I believe the legal test would come down to
1. whether the customer was reasonable in their expectation that BA would operate their advertised flight schedule, when planning their journey
2. whether it is fair or reasonable for BA to refuse that customer any and all assistance to complete their full journey on time (including allowing them to join their subsequent BA operated flight at LHR) in the event they do not operate the preceding scheduled flight.
3. whether you could directly attribute the missed connection to a failure by BA to operate a previous flight.
You'd obviously be free to suck it up if you wanted to. I definitely wouldn't.
Oct 29, 2014, 3:15 pm
#21
Ambassador, British Airways; FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Leeds, UK
Programs: BA GGL/CCR, GfL, HH Diamond
Posts: 43,383
Yes, if you want to do a back-to-back you do have at least for the positioning and first leg back to LHR, but you don't have to be HBO for the entire trip.
You could leave your bags at left luggage at LHR or at your hotel if you are overnighting after your first leg from EU-LHR before setting off next day to the US. You can then check your bags at LHR before you do your TATL. You at least need enough time to go landside when you get in to LHR after your first leg, retrieve your bag, check it in, and go back airside.
You could leave your bags at left luggage at LHR or at your hotel if you are overnighting after your first leg from EU-LHR before setting off next day to the US. You can then check your bags at LHR before you do your TATL. You at least need enough time to go landside when you get in to LHR after your first leg, retrieve your bag, check it in, and go back airside.
Oct 29, 2014, 3:18 pm
#22
Join Date: Jan 2005
Programs: BA Gold, AA Lifetime Gold 1.8mm, IC Spire Ambassador, Hilton Diamond, SPG Gold et al
Posts: 4,350
Yes, if you want to do a back-to-back you do have at least for the positioning and first leg back to LHR, but you don't have to be HBO for the entire trip.
You could leave your bags at left luggage at LHR or at your hotel if you are overnighting after your first leg from EU-LHR before setting off next day to the US. You can then check your bags at LHR before you do your TATL. You at least need enough time to go landside when you get in to LHR after your first leg, retrieve your bag, check it in, and go back airside.
You could leave your bags at left luggage at LHR or at your hotel if you are overnighting after your first leg from EU-LHR before setting off next day to the US. You can then check your bags at LHR before you do your TATL. You at least need enough time to go landside when you get in to LHR after your first leg, retrieve your bag, check it in, and go back airside.
Oct 29, 2014, 3:18 pm
#23
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: not far from MUC
Posts: 6,620
It's more that if you're travelling A-B then B-C, both booked with BA, that if BA require you to be flexible on the timing of the A-B bit, you should be able to require them to be flexible on the timing of the B-C bit
There's that clause in the conditions of carriage, isn't there? The one we all keep hoping will save us, yet somehow it never does...
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/briti...uld-apply.html
Oct 29, 2014, 3:19 pm
#24
Ambassador, British Airways; FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Leeds, UK
Programs: BA GGL/CCR, GfL, HH Diamond
Posts: 43,383
Well we'll have to agree to disagree on this. Many judges won't concern themselves with technicalities like whether all flights with the same Airline are linked under a single PNR or not - nor do they concern themselves with a companies' "policy" (the "technical" piece I referred to). They generally concern themselves with what is fair and what is reasonable.
I realise this is is all hypothetical, however I for one wouldn't hesitate to challenge it, legally or otherwise, if I were refused assistance (goodwill or not) in a situation where BA were operating both flights.
Irrespective of whether scheduled flights are guaranteed - I believe the legal test would come down to
1. whether the customer was reasonable in their expectation that BA would operate their advertised flight schedule, when planning their journey
2. whether it is fair or reasonable for BA to refuse that customer any and all assistance to complete their full journey on time (including allowing them to join their subsequent BA operated flight at LHR) in the event they do not operate the preceding scheduled flight.
3. whether you could directly attribute the missed connection to a failure by BA to operate a previous flight.
You'd obviously be free to suck it up if you wanted to. I definitely wouldn't.
I realise this is is all hypothetical, however I for one wouldn't hesitate to challenge it, legally or otherwise, if I were refused assistance (goodwill or not) in a situation where BA were operating both flights.
Irrespective of whether scheduled flights are guaranteed - I believe the legal test would come down to
1. whether the customer was reasonable in their expectation that BA would operate their advertised flight schedule, when planning their journey
2. whether it is fair or reasonable for BA to refuse that customer any and all assistance to complete their full journey on time (including allowing them to join their subsequent BA operated flight at LHR) in the event they do not operate the preceding scheduled flight.
3. whether you could directly attribute the missed connection to a failure by BA to operate a previous flight.
You'd obviously be free to suck it up if you wanted to. I definitely wouldn't.
You need to have some basis in law to challenge these things. The court is not the place to start your seminar on what you think the law should be - judges are not interested in your own thoughts of reasonableness or whether it even applies in this situation unless you have some backing in statute and/or case law. I say this as a lawyer, albeit not in the area of consumer law.
Oct 29, 2014, 3:29 pm
#25
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: LUX
Programs: BA Gold GGL, Hilton Diamond, FB Grey, Amex MR, Trop Plus Gold
Posts: 851
Obvious reply, but the advantage of living in Europe is ex-EUR fares, and the best bit, if it's cancelled, you get to go home and sleep in your own bed.
My advice is, always expect disruption and build it in, otherwise live in Europe, or don't book the ex-EUR fares. That's their nature, they're good fares ex-Europe, but likely to cause problems if you're ex-UK in irrops. Simple cost-benefit analysis over a large sample seems to return a positive though. YMMV.
My advice is, always expect disruption and build it in, otherwise live in Europe, or don't book the ex-EUR fares. That's their nature, they're good fares ex-Europe, but likely to cause problems if you're ex-UK in irrops. Simple cost-benefit analysis over a large sample seems to return a positive though. YMMV.
Oct 29, 2014, 3:32 pm
#26
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: East Berlin
Posts: 1,534
It happens - it was resolved successfully on this occasion. See here:
Asia's World City - New & Old - British Airways First Class (w/pics)
I recommend his trip reports. They are always a good read.
Palmer
Asia's World City - New & Old - British Airways First Class (w/pics)
As the lounge slowly started to receive more passengers for the first few European flights of the day, the receptionist came over to me and announced the bad news that my flight to Amsterdam had been cancelled due to ATC problems in the Netherlands. Needless to say my heart skipped more than a beat at this point. Possibly the worst thing that could happen had happened I wasnt going to be able to get to the start of my ex-EU booking, and would therefore be unable to board the flight to HKG. As it transpired, however, the receptionist wasnt sure whether AMS would be functioning properly at all today, meaning that I had a bit of negotiating power in allowing me to start the trip direct from LHR. A ticketing manager was called, and shortly a car was secured to take me from LGW to LHR, paid for by BA after a gentle reminder of my Gold status and First flight to HKG a big well done to BA for this. I cant stress enough how helpful both the manager and lounge agent were at LGW ba.com/welldone completed!
Palmer
Oct 29, 2014, 3:38 pm
#27
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: LUX
Programs: BA Gold GGL, Hilton Diamond, FB Grey, Amex MR, Trop Plus Gold
Posts: 851
2. whether it is fair or reasonable for BA to refuse that customer any and all assistance to complete their full journey on time (including allowing them to join their subsequent BA operated flight at LHR) in the event they do not operate the preceding scheduled flight.
Did the passenger present himself for check-in for the longhaul? No, job done.
Aside from residual compo for the non-operating outbound under 261, legally no leg to stand on. Anything else is purely BA goodwill.
Oct 29, 2014, 3:51 pm
#28
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London, Cape Town
Programs: BA
Posts: 39
What is the official position on rebooking a cancelled back-to-back flight ? If BA offers a new outbound which wouldn't allow a connection with the new inbound can one refuse that offer and insist on a new booking to make the new connection, even if it is a day or two later ? Or does one have to accept any offered rebooking? Even in a non ex-EU case, there are plenty of situations where an offered rebooking would be very inconvenient (e.g. arriving too late for an onward train connection).
Last edited by SoundMuppet; Oct 29, 2014 at 4:10 pm
Oct 29, 2014, 4:14 pm
#29
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,880
Wirelessly posted (iPhone 3G: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 8_0_2 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/600.1.4 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/8.0 Mobile/12A405 Safari/600.1.4)
Another thread where theory tramps all over practice and real experience (like the old joke about the economist...).
To save any of us not aspiring to a legal career, has anyone an example of actually being left high and dry by BA and having to buy a new ticket? Anyone? I can't recall any in my time on here.
Another thread where theory tramps all over practice and real experience (like the old joke about the economist...).
To save any of us not aspiring to a legal career, has anyone an example of actually being left high and dry by BA and having to buy a new ticket? Anyone? I can't recall any in my time on here.
Oct 29, 2014, 4:22 pm
#30
Join Date: Jun 2011
Programs: BAEC Gold, HHonors Gold, Marriot Bonvoy Gold, MeliaRewards Gold, Radisson Gold
Posts: 817
Where are you getting this from? Can you post a link to some consumer law that says what you have written has any basis apart from what you have come up with yourself? Do you have any law training yourself in this area?
You need to have some basis in law to challenge these things. The court is not the place to start your seminar on what you think the law should be - judges are not interested in your own thoughts of reasonableness or whether it even applies in this situation unless you have some backing in statute and/or case law. I say this as a lawyer, albeit not in the area of consumer law.
You need to have some basis in law to challenge these things. The court is not the place to start your seminar on what you think the law should be - judges are not interested in your own thoughts of reasonableness or whether it even applies in this situation unless you have some backing in statute and/or case law. I say this as a lawyer, albeit not in the area of consumer law.
And in my experience when it comes to consumer law, Judges actually ARE quite interested in what is fair and reasonable. Being pretty litigious by nature, I do have some experience in this area.
But to be honest, I couldn't be less interested in having a peeing contest with you
