uk1

I don't need to back it up. It is the "law"!

dobba

As you're wrong??

uk1

Why don't we continue the debate about who is right or wrong after you have done a bit of basic googling on the current consumer laws with respect to unfair terms and conditions in consumer contracts ...

dobba

My feeling is that just telling someone to go to court as its unfair, isnt particualrly helpful and may create more misery during a difficult time.

A touch more useful information to assist the OP or anyone in a similar situation might be appropriate.

"It's unfair" and "its the law" doesn't on its own seem to make a compelling case.

uk1

You need to re- read what I actually said will happen, and need to acquaint yourself better with her rights.

She will not need to go to court.

dobba

I'm not debating. I'd just like some to backup their assertions to help all on the board especially the OP.

wyvern

To penhill57: my commiserations. I hope that you can achieve a suitable outcome from BA.

In my view, BA would have a fairer, more customer-friendly, better programme if they provided for transfer of avios in such circumstances in the T&Cs.

BA's T&Cs say that this is not possible, and therefore may be deemed to be unfair. Some posters on this board are minded to accept the T&Cs, others view them in the light of current consumer law.

BA choose to not do so make the transfer of such miles possible, and must be aware they are opening themselves to legal challenge on the basis of an unfair contract. As others have said, it may well be that a court will find that the miles had value of some kind, and were owned by the account holder, and are assignable on the account holder's death.

I think that once BA is aware of pending court action, an offer may be made to transfer the points, possibly complete with a confidentiality clause. The bean counters will have worked out that transferring the points only in such cases is more cost-effective for BA than doing it for all.

IAN-UK

You could be living in a self-imposed T&C straightjacket.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that BA is very ready to compromise on this: though it's unclear whether this is preternatural generosity, or an unwillingness to face down a formal challenge.

SteveF

Just out of interest, how do Amex handle the same situation with regard to ownership of MR points?

uk1

Why?

SteveF

Why? Because MR points held in an Amex account (often where the surviving partner is a supplementary card holder) were also earned using jointly owned money. I would assume that the same rules should apply to both sets of points.

Alan Smith

I think it's unfair as I judge it to be so.

I don't agree with BA's point of view that they "own" the points. So there is no right to transfer in event of death. I believe that for lots of reasons.

Whether you, I or anyone on this board believe it to be fair or unfair is actually irrelevant. As all that needs to be done is convince BA of the fact that there is a magistrate (if in Northern Ireland) or Judge that may see this who also believe that the T&Cs are unfair. I'm pretty sure there will be, as they tend to be people like you and I.

callum9999

You couldn't possibly know what will happen, and the legal term "unfair" does not mean "if any random person doesn't like it then it's illegal". There is nothing inherently unfair in assigning avios to an individual and not allowing them to be transferred to other people. It's a bit callous and rather stupid in the OP's scenario, but I can't see how it's unfair. Though Alan Smith above is quite right in that Judges are people too and I've seen many cases where they've ruled in the publics favour because they believe it's the "right thing" to do as opposed to there being any clear legal basis, so they could well do the same on something like this.

While I'd hope you're right and the threat of legal action alone is enough to make BA change their mind, you dictating that your definition of fair is correct and someone elses is wrong is nothing more than arrogance.

mjh0

IANAL, but I suspect that the condition that Avios don't become the "property" of the natural person who accrues the points but remain the property of BA is deliberately done.

This will avoid Avios being considered some sort of taxable benefit, and/or part of a disagreement between an employee who has accrued Avios while on business travel and their employer.

I seem to recall that there was some sort of discussion or case several years ago about whether it's the employer or employee who "owns" FFP points, and whether they were some sort of taxable benefit if accrued on business travel, and this showed it's actually neither, but the airline - and it's only the natural person that can benefit from them (either themselves directly, through points sharing - e.g. household accounts, or through "sponsored" upgrades or awards).

I dare say SWIAL will be along shortly to tell me I'm talking rubbish, but that's my recollection of it.

Sorry to hear of the OP's loss. Having what feels like a wrangle can't make it seem any easier, either.

Mike

KevinTheB

There was something scheduled on this topic on Radio4 this morning, but unfortunately I arrived at my destination before it came on.