DC closing : Summary of questions to be answered
Sep 29, 2012, 6:42 am
#31
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: BHD/DUB
Programs: BA Gold, TK*G, EI Elite
Posts: 7,622
If you're going to use T&C's to argue with them....
12. Variation
- bmi expressly reserves the right in its absolute discretion to withdraw, cancel, vary in any way or change at any time without notice any service or benefit previously offered or expressed or provided to Diamond Club members, or the Terms & Conditions upon which the same are so offered or provided and will not be liable for any resulting loss or damage howsoever occasioned
Sep 29, 2012, 8:40 am
#33
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: PMI
Programs: BA,LH,CX,EK SPG,IC mainly and a few others
Posts: 1,862
So is your MBNA registered outside the UK? Does that mean MBNA allows you to keep your card if you move outside of the UK? It's probably a use case BA haven't thought about as I don't believe their BA Amex allows you to keep the card if moving overseas.
I think you'll be ok just changing your diamond club address and leaving MBNA as is. I don't think diamond club checks the name and address matches on both accounts.
I think you'll be ok just changing your diamond club address and leaving MBNA as is. I don't think diamond club checks the name and address matches on both accounts.
The problem is only when you try to switch cards (as I did when I tried to switch to Amex/ Visa combination)- you need to be a UK resident to apply for the card(s).
I have a good credit history and excellent credit limit (MBNA cardholder since 99, switched to Bmi branded card in2002, more than 30 k credit limit which is handy when booking long haul flights for family), so it will be a shame to let it go.
Sep 29, 2012, 8:46 am
#34
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: SIN
Programs: SQ, UA, Delta, BMI(RIP), Marriott Lifetime Titanium, Hilton Diamond (Thanks Amex) Hyatt Discov
Posts: 1,942
I am sure BMI/BA lawyers will find some fine print somewhere which allows you to take away those miles for award tickets cancelled post 31 Dec 2012, but do you think it is morally defensible?
You will have cases where TG or SQ or TK changes its schedules, and connections on BMI award bookings are impossible to make. The operating carrier has no obligation to find alternative flights, and I will be forced to cancel the ticket. And you tell me that although you will give me back my cash plus taxes ( less the 25 GBP cancellation charges - pl confirm ) you wont refund me the miles, even in Avios, and even in case The ticket cancellation is forced on me although I am more than willing to travel as per the original itinerary??
Sep 29, 2012, 9:01 am
#35
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London
Programs: Mucci. Nothing else matters.
Posts: 38,644
Just trying to think through the options here: Won't the ticketing carrier remain obliged to get you from origin to destination somehow?
Sep 29, 2012, 9:40 am
#36
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: UK oop north
Programs: BMI Diamond Club RIP,BAEC Silver
Posts: 1,692
As I said on the Involuntary changes thead
" I'm quite disappointed that they aren't acknowledging involuntary schedule changes in the Q&A nor have they evidently come up with an organised way to deal with changes by each star carrier by now.Is there yet a clear publicly stated alternative to advising us that the only option in the event of a schedule change is to cancel? "
FTer's have struggled to get BMI and * carriers to take responsibility for changes and we've helped each other sometimes get a resolution. I feel very sorry for the majority with future award tickets who lack the knowledge to attempt a resolution short of cancelling. There has been no consistency nor acceptance of resonsibility to fulfil the contract by the ticketing carrier BMI.
Nicci I wonder whether you would like to comment?
" I'm quite disappointed that they aren't acknowledging involuntary schedule changes in the Q&A nor have they evidently come up with an organised way to deal with changes by each star carrier by now.Is there yet a clear publicly stated alternative to advising us that the only option in the event of a schedule change is to cancel? "
FTer's have struggled to get BMI and * carriers to take responsibility for changes and we've helped each other sometimes get a resolution. I feel very sorry for the majority with future award tickets who lack the knowledge to attempt a resolution short of cancelling. There has been no consistency nor acceptance of resonsibility to fulfil the contract by the ticketing carrier BMI.
Nicci I wonder whether you would like to comment?
Sep 29, 2012, 9:58 am
#37
Community Director
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Norwich, UK
Programs: A3*G, BA Gold, BD Gold (in memoriam), IHG Diamond Ambassador
Posts: 8,477
It does strike me that, not for the first time, FT'ers have thought through some fairly obvious implications of the announcement rather better than those in power at the airlines. (Nicci, I'm sure you're excused any blame that results from this!)
My questions, which will continue to apply to UK members under the current arrangements:
Will BA guarantee that both DC and the miles transfer to Avios remain open until all award flights booked until 27th October are flown so that any destination miles refunds are not lost, or at least allow a direct refund into Avios?
What future arrangements apply to the Amex Plus card now that two of the major benefits associated with the £85 annual fee - status miles (can no longer be earned under the T&C's) and Lounge Access vouchers (only valid for BD-coded flights, which will no longer exist) - are no longer of any use? Will the double miles continue for bookings made on ba.com for BA flights?
My questions, which will continue to apply to UK members under the current arrangements:
Will BA guarantee that both DC and the miles transfer to Avios remain open until all award flights booked until 27th October are flown so that any destination miles refunds are not lost, or at least allow a direct refund into Avios?
What future arrangements apply to the Amex Plus card now that two of the major benefits associated with the £85 annual fee - status miles (can no longer be earned under the T&C's) and Lounge Access vouchers (only valid for BD-coded flights, which will no longer exist) - are no longer of any use? Will the double miles continue for bookings made on ba.com for BA flights?
Sep 29, 2012, 10:17 am
#38
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: UK
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Unfortunately we can't change the ticket stock - the only way to do that would be to cancel and then re-book through the Executive Club. However, I am not advising this as a general rule as availability is not guaranteed and I would hate to see anyone cancel and not be able to re-book
Nicci
Nicci
I booked the flights as BD*G with Y miles for C, so 40000. It's 50000 on BA. Plus, BA's C Avios availability to BEY is really terrible...
I assume there is no way to 'waitlist' like BD used to do? (When it would very likely clear in a few days)
Thanks Nicci
Sep 29, 2012, 10:27 am
#39
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Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: London, UK and Southern France
Posts: 18,364
That said, at least for EU-originating flights at any rate, the passenger has a right to a refund under Reg 261/2004 if there is a cancellation. I very much doubt that a "refund" that would result in loss of the miles would be 261/2004-compliant.
To be honest, I can't quite see what the problem would be with a refund in avios currency from BA's perspective. I can see that there might be administration costs as there would probably have to be handled manually but they are unlikely to get gazillions of cancellations post December 2012, are they, so we are talking relatively small numbers here.
Given that it is very far from clear that the position taken by dc regarding cancelled reservations is legally sound, not least from a UCTR perspective, I think that interventions by CR to avoid a loss of miles by means of ex-gratia avios payment magically corresponding to the cancelled dc miles would be a sensible move to make.
Sep 29, 2012, 10:45 am
#40
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: CNF
Programs: Priority Club, TAM Fidelidade, BAEC, Marriott Rewards
Posts: 2,184
If you have award flights, I suggest simply "moving" to the UK in case you need to cancel. It's not like they are going to send some physical items, so the address doesn't matter.
Sep 29, 2012, 12:42 pm
#41
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: DUB - Ireland
Programs: EI-GCE, BD-G, BA-G, A3*G, TK*G, FB-G, HH-G, Hyatt-Dia
Posts: 8,527
By co-incidence, I had lunch today with a British QC and I asked him about his potential advices - his reading of this matter was that this position was not sustainable and would be viewed as unfair. The basis for this was that a contract for travel was already in place with expressed T&Cs and that any remedy would be required on a like-for-like basis. To deprive a member of the miles used in payment - in the event of a rebooking not being possible (and that was a whole other debate) - would leave them in a grievously diminished position and that a transfer to BA miles would be seen as equitable as an alternative.
He also said that Section 12 of bmi's DC T&Cs would in no way be upheld in the matter of a previously issued ticket.
Mention of EU261/04 brought some amusement, given airline's complete wish to avoid any substantial precedent being set, but ultimately his advice was that the plight of the passenger would find favour with the courts.
My own take is that tickets are all issued with, give or take, one year's validity, the issue is temporally bound one and that the bmi (read BA) should, in the interests of fairness to those who have earned bmi's loyalty, simply allow refunds to a bmi account (where no redemption is possible) and onward transfer to BA.
Ham-fistedly shutting down most of the rest of the world and effectively rendering us a second-class citizens compared with those in the UK is morally repugnant, it makes for poor business sense, given the easy solutions available.
I appreciate that bmi wishes to wipe as much DC liability from the books by year end, but surely introducing a rule to allow miles to expire after say, 1 month, would be an equally effective way of doing this, without hurting those whose require refunds as promised at the time of booking - and duly forming part, an enforceable part, of the contract? The financial burden on BAEC by allowing a very small number of refund-and-transfer cases to proceed must surely be financially negligible.
And those in Oceania get a free ride through circumstance? Seriously?
A room full of 4 year olds could have thought this through better.
Sep 29, 2012, 12:57 pm
#42
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Germany
Programs: LH FTL, BA Bronze
Posts: 831
That is the only prudent thing for those non-UK members with award travel next year to do.
By co-incidence, I had lunch today with a British QC and I asked him about his potential advices - his reading of this matter was that this position was not sustainable and would be viewed as unfair. The basis for this was that a contract for travel was already in place with expressed T&Cs and that any remedy would be required on a like-for-like basis. To deprive a member of the miles used in payment - in the event of a rebooking not being possible (and that was a whole other debate) - would leave them in a grievously diminished position and that a transfer to BA miles would be seen as equitable as an alternative.
He also said that Section 12 of bmi's DC T&Cs would in no way be upheld in the matter of a previously issued ticket.
Mention of EU261/04 brought some amusement, given airline's complete wish to avoid any substantial precedent being set, but ultimately his advice was that the plight of the passenger would find favour with the courts.
My own take is that tickets are all issued with, give or take, one year's validity, the issue is temporally bound one and that the bmi (read BA) should, in the interests of fairness to those who have earned bmi's loyalty, simply allow refunds to a bmi account (where no redemption is possible) and onward transfer to BA.
Ham-fistedly shutting down most of the rest of the world and effectively rendering us a second-class citizens compared with those in the UK is morally repugnant, it makes for poor business sense, given the easy solutions available.
I appreciate that bmi wishes to wipe as much DC liability from the books by year end, but surely introducing a rule to allow miles to expire after say, 1 month, would be an equally effective way of doing this, without hurting those whose require refunds as promised at the time of booking - and duly forming part, an enforceable part, of the contract? The financial burden on BAEC by allowing a very small number of refund-and-transfer cases to proceed must surely be financially negligible.
And those in Oceania get a free ride through circumstance? Seriously?
A room full of 4 year olds could have thought this through better.
By co-incidence, I had lunch today with a British QC and I asked him about his potential advices - his reading of this matter was that this position was not sustainable and would be viewed as unfair. The basis for this was that a contract for travel was already in place with expressed T&Cs and that any remedy would be required on a like-for-like basis. To deprive a member of the miles used in payment - in the event of a rebooking not being possible (and that was a whole other debate) - would leave them in a grievously diminished position and that a transfer to BA miles would be seen as equitable as an alternative.
He also said that Section 12 of bmi's DC T&Cs would in no way be upheld in the matter of a previously issued ticket.
Mention of EU261/04 brought some amusement, given airline's complete wish to avoid any substantial precedent being set, but ultimately his advice was that the plight of the passenger would find favour with the courts.
My own take is that tickets are all issued with, give or take, one year's validity, the issue is temporally bound one and that the bmi (read BA) should, in the interests of fairness to those who have earned bmi's loyalty, simply allow refunds to a bmi account (where no redemption is possible) and onward transfer to BA.
Ham-fistedly shutting down most of the rest of the world and effectively rendering us a second-class citizens compared with those in the UK is morally repugnant, it makes for poor business sense, given the easy solutions available.
I appreciate that bmi wishes to wipe as much DC liability from the books by year end, but surely introducing a rule to allow miles to expire after say, 1 month, would be an equally effective way of doing this, without hurting those whose require refunds as promised at the time of booking - and duly forming part, an enforceable part, of the contract? The financial burden on BAEC by allowing a very small number of refund-and-transfer cases to proceed must surely be financially negligible.
And those in Oceania get a free ride through circumstance? Seriously?
A room full of 4 year olds could have thought this through better.
Sep 29, 2012, 1:49 pm
#43
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: London, UK and Southern France
Posts: 18,364
Glad to hear that I am not the only one thinking that BA/dc's position on this is rather dubious legally-speaking.
Sep 29, 2012, 7:41 pm
#44
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Northern Italian Lakes
Programs: BA, *A, Hertz Goldstar, Mucci wannabee, Waitrose, safari Oleg
Posts: 1,545
I agree.
That said, at least for EU-originating flights at any rate, the passenger has a right to a refund under Reg 261/2004 if there is a cancellation. I very much doubt that a "refund" that would result in loss of the miles would be 261/2004-compliant.
To be honest, I can't quite see what the problem would be with a refund in avios currency from BA's perspective. I can see that there might be administration costs as there would probably have to be handled manually but they are unlikely to get gazillions of cancellations post December 2012, are they, so we are talking relatively small numbers here.
Given that it is very far from clear that the position taken by dc regarding cancelled reservations is legally sound, not least from a UCTR perspective, I think that interventions by CR to avoid a loss of miles by means of ex-gratia avios payment magically corresponding to the cancelled dc miles would be a sensible move to make.
That said, at least for EU-originating flights at any rate, the passenger has a right to a refund under Reg 261/2004 if there is a cancellation. I very much doubt that a "refund" that would result in loss of the miles would be 261/2004-compliant.
To be honest, I can't quite see what the problem would be with a refund in avios currency from BA's perspective. I can see that there might be administration costs as there would probably have to be handled manually but they are unlikely to get gazillions of cancellations post December 2012, are they, so we are talking relatively small numbers here.
Given that it is very far from clear that the position taken by dc regarding cancelled reservations is legally sound, not least from a UCTR perspective, I think that interventions by CR to avoid a loss of miles by means of ex-gratia avios payment magically corresponding to the cancelled dc miles would be a sensible move to make.
I pity any Blue Diamond Club member who without fault of their own, gets into this kind of problem. Gold and Silver DC members at least got offered a status transfer to BAEC. Blue members got pretty much nothing other than a destinations mileage transfer. So if they then have problems that force involuntary cancellation this is really unfair on them. Quite apart that as so many of us are not even receiving emails on these things from BMI/IAG/BA, quite a few people may not even know until they land in a problem and there will be nothing that they can refer to that says everyone will be fairly treated. And by then I wonder if the BMI legal entity within which any obligations are contained, will have been extinguished by IAG/BA. A statement of a fair and consistent process that will be applied would help a lot right now.
Last edited by h15t0r1an; Sep 29, 2012 at 7:52 pm Reason: my own bold and underline of key phrases in quote from earlier poster
Sep 29, 2012, 9:19 pm
#45
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: BOS/EAP
Programs: UA 1K, MR LTT, HH Dia, Amex Plat
Posts: 32,063
As I said on the Involuntary changes thead
" I'm quite disappointed that they aren't acknowledging involuntary schedule changes in the Q&A nor have they evidently come up with an organised way to deal with changes by each star carrier by now.Is there yet a clear publicly stated alternative to advising us that the only option in the event of a schedule change is to cancel? "
FTer's have struggled to get BMI and * carriers to take responsibility for changes and we've helped each other sometimes get a resolution. I feel very sorry for the majority with future award tickets who lack the knowledge to attempt a resolution short of cancelling. There has been no consistency nor acceptance of resonsibility to fulfil the contract by the ticketing carrier BMI.
Nicci I wonder whether you would like to comment?
" I'm quite disappointed that they aren't acknowledging involuntary schedule changes in the Q&A nor have they evidently come up with an organised way to deal with changes by each star carrier by now.Is there yet a clear publicly stated alternative to advising us that the only option in the event of a schedule change is to cancel? "
FTer's have struggled to get BMI and * carriers to take responsibility for changes and we've helped each other sometimes get a resolution. I feel very sorry for the majority with future award tickets who lack the knowledge to attempt a resolution short of cancelling. There has been no consistency nor acceptance of resonsibility to fulfil the contract by the ticketing carrier BMI.
Nicci I wonder whether you would like to comment?
My last BMI award ticket is on 1/1/13 with LX from ZRH to BOS and I don't foresee any issues.