Jul 6, 2013, 5:58 pm
Last edit by: JDiver
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OZ 214 ICN-SFO (reg no HL-7742), a 2006 Boeing 777-200ER with P&W PW4090 engines; flew ICN - KIX - ICN immediately prior (not as OZ 214). 291 passengers and 16 crew on board. 3 people dead, 48 seriously injured, 132 less so.
Aircraft landed short on approach (VFR weather, ILS out of service, PAPI working) impacting the seawall delimiting runway 28L with main landing gear and then the tail 11:28 PDT, careering down the runway to a stop and ensuing fire. The empennage and both engines separated from the fuselage, and fire from an oil drip in engine no. 2 burnt a significant part of the upper forward fuselage.
Runway 28L / 10R was closed until 1700 PDT 12 July; all SFO runways are open.
Here is a Link to the Flightaware track. (6 Jul 2013).
Link to original BBC article; Link to BBC photo show
Update: 08 July 2013
Summary of NTSB press conference
Update: 09 July 2013
SF Gate summary of NTSB press conference
Update: 10 July 2013
NBC video and summary of NTSB press conference
Update: 11 July 2013
San Jose Mercury summary of final NTSB press conference
PLEASE NOTE: Due to the sensitive nature of an aircraft crash, Senior Moderators ask that posts be made keeping the surviving passengers, crewmembers and their families in mind. Posts that do not comply with TOS (off-topic and dilatory posts, OMNI, conspiracies, inflammatory, etc.) will be summarily deleted.
OZ 214 ICN-SFO (reg no HL-7742), a 2006 Boeing 777-200ER with P&W PW4090 engines; flew ICN - KIX - ICN immediately prior (not as OZ 214). 291 passengers and 16 crew on board. 3 people dead, 48 seriously injured, 132 less so.
Aircraft landed short on approach (VFR weather, ILS out of service, PAPI working) impacting the seawall delimiting runway 28L with main landing gear and then the tail 11:28 PDT, careering down the runway to a stop and ensuing fire. The empennage and both engines separated from the fuselage, and fire from an oil drip in engine no. 2 burnt a significant part of the upper forward fuselage.
Runway 28L / 10R was closed until 1700 PDT 12 July; all SFO runways are open.
Here is a Link to the Flightaware track. (6 Jul 2013).
Link to original BBC article; Link to BBC photo show
Update: 08 July 2013
Summary of NTSB press conference
Update: 09 July 2013
SF Gate summary of NTSB press conference
Update: 10 July 2013
NBC video and summary of NTSB press conference
Update: 11 July 2013
San Jose Mercury summary of final NTSB press conference
PLEASE NOTE: Due to the sensitive nature of an aircraft crash, Senior Moderators ask that posts be made keeping the surviving passengers, crewmembers and their families in mind. Posts that do not comply with TOS (off-topic and dilatory posts, OMNI, conspiracies, inflammatory, etc.) will be summarily deleted.
Asiana Airline OZ214 777 crash at SFO (6 Jul 2013)
Jul 8, 2013, 3:47 pm
#1531
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I believe it is:
Apparently in the 777, it is possible to disengage the autopilot and have the autothrottle "on" but disengaged by selecting Flight Level CHange in the Flight Management Computer. This creates a situation where the computer is telling the pilot to nose up to get back on glideslope, but the thrust never changes.
Apparently in the 777, it is possible to disengage the autopilot and have the autothrottle "on" but disengaged by selecting Flight Level CHange in the Flight Management Computer. This creates a situation where the computer is telling the pilot to nose up to get back on glideslope, but the thrust never changes.
Jul 8, 2013, 3:53 pm
#1532
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I believe it is:
Apparently in the 777, it is possible to disengage the autopilot and have the autothrottle "on" but disengaged by selecting Flight Level CHange in the Flight Management Computer. This creates a situation where the computer is telling the pilot to nose up to get back on glideslope, but the thrust never changes.
Apparently in the 777, it is possible to disengage the autopilot and have the autothrottle "on" but disengaged by selecting Flight Level CHange in the Flight Management Computer. This creates a situation where the computer is telling the pilot to nose up to get back on glideslope, but the thrust never changes.
We will wait for further analysis.
Jul 8, 2013, 3:59 pm
#1533
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Looks like it was SkyWest 6389, operating as United Express from Colorado Springs, CO. It did a go-around at 600 feet and diverted to San Jose.
Last edited by makfan; Jul 8, 2013 at 4:13 pm
Jul 8, 2013, 4:04 pm
#1534
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Jul 8, 2013, 4:06 pm
#1535
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However, by selecting Flight Level CHange (a high-altitude-only mode) in the flight computer on approach, it puts the A/T into HOLD and it is possible to then turn off the A/P without disengaging the A/T. BUT, since selecting FLCH put the A/T into HOLD, the A/T will not keep speed or sound the normal low-speed warnings.
Meaning, a pilot can pull up to get back on glideslope (thinking the A/T will automatically increase thrust), but the throttles will not move, leading to a loss of speed and sinking further below glideslope until either the A/T is brought out of HOLD, the pilot manually moves the thrust levers, or the plane crashes.
That appears to be what happened here.
warning: IANA777P.
Jul 8, 2013, 4:18 pm
#1537
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Yes, but wouldn't the experienced pilot have looked or assisted him to make sure the information was entered correctly?
Other airlines have had literally YEARS of these 777-200s with the same FMC and same pilots entering information in and never had a problem before.
So I am wondering if this was the first time a novice 777 Pilot was able to pilot or entered in the wrong information to the FMC or if the experienced pilot was at fault for not assisting the novice to make sure the information was entered correctly.
Apparently others have confirmed this hypothesis via flight simulator and if the black boxes confirm this data, then it looks like this is a very likely account of what happened barring any other new information.
Other airlines have had literally YEARS of these 777-200s with the same FMC and same pilots entering information in and never had a problem before.
So I am wondering if this was the first time a novice 777 Pilot was able to pilot or entered in the wrong information to the FMC or if the experienced pilot was at fault for not assisting the novice to make sure the information was entered correctly.
Apparently others have confirmed this hypothesis via flight simulator and if the black boxes confirm this data, then it looks like this is a very likely account of what happened barring any other new information.
Jul 8, 2013, 4:22 pm
#1538
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Yes, but wouldn't the experienced pilot have looked or assisted him to make sure the information was entered correctly?
Other airlines have had literally YEARS of these 777-200s with the same FMC and same pilots entering information in and never had a problem before.
So I am wondering if this was the first time a novice 777 Pilot was able to pilot or entered in the wrong information to the FMC or if the experienced pilot was at fault for not assisting the novice to make sure the information was entered correctly.
Other airlines have had literally YEARS of these 777-200s with the same FMC and same pilots entering information in and never had a problem before.
So I am wondering if this was the first time a novice 777 Pilot was able to pilot or entered in the wrong information to the FMC or if the experienced pilot was at fault for not assisting the novice to make sure the information was entered correctly.
Jul 8, 2013, 4:30 pm
#1540
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They interviewed the pilots today so they might even know already. The pilots might have been able to explain precisely what happened. Tomorrows NTSB press conference will be well worth watching (any Debbie Hersman press conference is worth watching IMO. It's a master class in crisis management and command of the press, if you've not seen to previous two I recommend it).
Jul 8, 2013, 4:30 pm
#1541
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Nobody has weighed in yet, so: altitude usually means (above) MSL (Mean Sea Level) or AMSL; Mean Sea Level is the average sea level, basically. Other altitude definitions you may see used could include AGL - Above Ground Level. An adjusted (for atmospheric pressure and temperature) usual analogue aircraft altimeter would indicate mean sea level is displaying the indicated altitude.
There are several other "altitude" definitions and types used and other uses - radar altimeters use AGL, etc. Wikipedia article here. Yeah, pilots have to learn these things...
And yes, AMS shows a minus figure: Field elevation: -11 ft/-3 m MSL.
Just to reiterate, it is being reported that "three seconds before it struck the ground Saturday, the speed of Asiana Airlines Flight 214, a Boeing 777, was 103 knots — the lowest measured by its data recorders, and far below the target speed of 137 knots, says National Transportation Board Chairman Deborah Hersman." NPR (The "stick-shaker" warning was indicating a stall, a condition in which the aircraft experiences insufficient lift to actually remain in level flight.)
There are several other "altitude" definitions and types used and other uses - radar altimeters use AGL, etc. Wikipedia article here. Yeah, pilots have to learn these things...
And yes, AMS shows a minus figure: Field elevation: -11 ft/-3 m MSL.
Just to reiterate, it is being reported that "three seconds before it struck the ground Saturday, the speed of Asiana Airlines Flight 214, a Boeing 777, was 103 knots — the lowest measured by its data recorders, and far below the target speed of 137 knots, says National Transportation Board Chairman Deborah Hersman." NPR (The "stick-shaker" warning was indicating a stall, a condition in which the aircraft experiences insufficient lift to actually remain in level flight.)
(From a non-pilot here):
What does altitude mean? Above local ground level (at SFO)? Above mean sea level?
If the crew had adjusted their altimeter for landing, would it show altitude above actual terrain (sea)? ground level at SFO? some other standard?
And at such low altitudes, from what point on the aircraft body it measured might be important. Would this be the lowest part of the fuselage? Wheel level?
What does altitude mean? Above local ground level (at SFO)? Above mean sea level?
If the crew had adjusted their altimeter for landing, would it show altitude above actual terrain (sea)? ground level at SFO? some other standard?
And at such low altitudes, from what point on the aircraft body it measured might be important. Would this be the lowest part of the fuselage? Wheel level?
Last edited by JDiver; Jul 8, 2013 at 4:36 pm
Jul 8, 2013, 4:30 pm
#1542
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Jul 8, 2013, 4:35 pm
#1543
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Again, I Am Not A 777 Pilot. However, from what I gather selecting FLCH for an approach is a big No-No for experienced Boeing pilots. Transitioning Airbus pilots (like the left-seater in this case) can make that mistake; however, it is readily picked up with a good instrument scan, an alert pilot, and understanding that the Pilots have to Fly The D*** Plane instead of trusting the computer to be error-free.
Last edited by warthog1984; Jul 8, 2013 at 5:03 pm
Jul 8, 2013, 4:38 pm
#1545
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In the clip from NBC that a commenter contributed above - which for me was Matt Lauer's interview of Ms. Hersman rather than the people getting off the plane - I said to the screen: "Matt, remember that old saying about swordfighting with Zorro? Shake your head." And cool as a cucumber.