Perhaps this explains the high level of video and software piracy on the mainland. [ducking]

I spent most of my years in Taiwan in the southern part of the island, and I speak Mandarin with a distinct "Taiwanese" accent. When I go to the mainland, the natives have little trouble detecting where I learned Chinese. But I can also affect a decent Beijing accent when appropriate. I can also really turn up the "Tawian Goyu" for dramatic effect when needed.

I agree with Taiwaned that if your goal is to immerse yourself in the language, it is easier to do in the south than in Taipei where foreigners abound, and one does not need to speak Mandarin to get by. It is tougher to get by without Mandarin in the south, though not as tough as it was 20 years ago. There are a lot more a-toh-gah's (big noses = foreigners) in the south now.

You can live in Taipei and get the same effect if you just don't hang out with the foreign crowds. They tend to gather in specific places--just avoid those places if your goal is language immersion. I spent six months in Taipei, and I managed to avoid foreigners just fine.

When I lived in So California, and would go to palces in the Chinese enclaves, they would all ask me how I learned to speak Chinese so well. They would always follow up with a self deprecating comment about how they've been in the US for 10 years, and can't learn English. Part of that is just Chinese humility--they can speak English better than they'll admit. But part of it is true in that they can easily get by in some areas of California without ever learning English. They go to Chinese supermarkets and restaurants, read Chinese newspapers, watch Chinese TV and movies and hang out with Chinese friends.

If your goal is to learn Chinese, don't make the same mistake by hanging around foreigners in Taiwan/China. Jump in the deep end and struggle through it.

The OPs original question was not to compare whether or not to base out of Hong Kong versus Taipei, but whether Taipei was a good city to spend a year in...

I would say that Taipei is a very good city to spend a year in. Taipei definitely has a chinese flavor and english is not widely widely spoken, but its not hard to get around at all.

I was making two points, one re putonghua instruction, second re whether south was better than north for studying.

Re latter, if we adopt your logic, then best place to learn would be outside of any urban setting, whether Taiwan or China. You will always find people who speak english, if you take the easy way out. My only point was in terms of best places to 'learn' - I think you're saying which is best place to 'practice'.

IMHO, learning to speak mandarin is not difficult, it's the reading and writing. Therefore, classroom instruction as well as one's own discipline to practice characters, read local papers, etc. is key.

Easy for an ABC to say.

My son is finishing his third year of Mandarin and he's getting quite good at reading and writing. However even though he has a great "ear" he struggles with oral comprehension.

The tones can be very difficult for Westerners. He can make his way through one-on-one conversations with a little back and forth to confirm his understanding. But he says listening to a native speaker at full-speed everyday conversational rate drives him crazy. For his oral comprehension tests, the teacher often reads a moderately-long passage and then the students have to write two or three paragraphs responding to what was read. This is the part of the test where he gets his lowest grades.

What I am about to write is opinion only, based on my anecdotal experience of having learned the language, and having been around a lot of other Westerners trying to learn Mandarin.

People who have some vocal musical talent seem to do much better learning to speak Chinese well. The ability to control your voice in singing seems to have a crossover benefit to learning to speak in tones.

Of all the Americans I worked with in Taiwan, there were a few that really struggled with the language. And I noticed that these same people were often really awful singers--totally tone deaf. And in general terms, the people who did exceptionally well with the language were often quite gifted, musically.

Chinese is actually a very simple language structure to learn. It has a very simple, almost exception-free grammar system--no verb tenses, gender, conjugation, etc. And there are a finite number of syllables used in the language (I think the number is something like 408 available sound combinations). So imagine if you were learning English (or any language) and only needed to learn to pronounce 408 words, and you would be able to say anything in the language.

Of course, what makes Chinese difficult for most people are the tones, extensive use of idioms, and the writing system.

In regard to reading/writing Chinese, if you are a visual learner, you will have a great advantage in learning to read and write Chinese. People are generally grouped into three main camps with regard to how they absorb information: visual, tactile and auditory. If you happen to fall into the "Visual" camp, you may find that Chinese characters are easier for you to learn than for other people. I am rather good at remembering visual patterns, and so Chinese characters came relatively easy to me--after countless hours with flashcards.

When I said my son had a good "ear" I was referring to another sort of perhaps related talent. He's an incredible mimic. His French teacher said he spoke French like a Frenchman. His friends on campus often ask him to mimic being an Aussie, Italian, Russian, etc. and ask people questions. He once talked to a Russian student while mimicking and the kid thought he was Russian! This abillity has helped him a lot with speaking and listening.


My son's teachers say his calligraphy is very good (he's said to have good, strong strokes). He has some drawing ability (cartoons mostly but also some portraits) and very nice penmanship. He also has a nearly-photographic memory. I think these traits have helped him quite a bit with reading and writing Chinese. Oh, and he spends countless hours with flashcards as well.

Missed my point...he he.

Certain languages easier to learn because no or little grammar, tenses, etc. For instance, bahasa malay/indo fits into tht group. Spoken chinese is same, except for the tones but as foreigner, you can get away with it.

A hard language to speak: eg russian because of conjugations, singular vs plural, tenses, etc. etc.

Thank you so much as that explains nearly everything to me. I have been going to Taiwan for 10 years and just cannot get the hang of the language, no matter how much I try, and the friends I have made there are glad, and even tell me so now, when I give up the Karaoke microphone after only one song, when in the early days they insisted I sing another (and another and . . . ) song.