Aug 31, 2015, 6:08 am
Last edit by: beltway
Changes to Amtrak Guest Rewards in 2016
Amtrak Guest Rewards (AGR) underwent numerous changes beginning on January 24, 2016. This wiki attempts to provide a summary of those changes (and Amtrak's ongoing unannounced revisions of the rules). For additional details, see the Amtrak website.
Table of Contents
Earning Status
AGR altered its expiration policy, which previously required paid travel once every 36 months. Effective August 27, 2015, any points-earning or redemption activity will reset the 36-month clock. Effective April 2019, points expire after 24 months of inactivity.
As today, AGR MasterCard cardholders' points will not expire as long as their credit card accounts are open. AGR has moved its co-branded credit card relationship to Bank of America, which now offers two different versions of the card, including one with no annual fee. All Chase AGR MasterCards were converted to Chase Freedom cards on September 30, 2015. Post-Rollout Issues/Unknowns
It remains unclear whether these are merely IT errors or unannounced program devaluations, particularly as in some cases the contradict explicitly stated terms and conditions.
Amtrak Guest Rewards (AGR) underwent numerous changes beginning on January 24, 2016. This wiki attempts to provide a summary of those changes (and Amtrak's ongoing unannounced revisions of the rules). For additional details, see the Amtrak website.
Table of Contents
Earning Status
As in the past, members earn Tier Qualifying Points (TQP) for paid travel at the rate of 2 TQP per dollar. With the 2016 changes, however, AGR has eliminated In addition, AGR now provides new class-of-service TQP bonuses: 25% for qualifying travel in Business class and 50% for qualifying travel in Acela First class. (As noted below, passengers will also earn redeemable AGR points in the same amount.)
The number of TQP required to earn status remains the same: Benefits for each status level, including the Tier Bonus on cash fares (see below), remain the same.
Earning AGR Points Redeemable for Travel- the 100 TQP minimum (so fares under $50 earn fewer TQP), and
- the Acela "select city pairs" TQP minimums for Business class (formerly 500 TQP) and First class (formerly 750 TQP); see post #83
The number of TQP required to earn status remains the same:
- Select - 5,000 TQP
- Select Plus - 10,000 TQP
- Select Executive - 20,000 TQP
Members continue to earn redeemable AGR points for paid travel (except as discussed below in this section) at the rate of 2 points per dollar, plus a new 25% point bonus for qualifying travel in Business class and 50% for qualifying travel in Acela First class. Sleeper-car tickets do not earn a bonus.
With the 2016 changes, however, AGR eliminates In addition to base points, members with status continue to earn Tier Bonus redeemable AGR points (i.e., not TQP) at the same level as in 2015: As was the case before, members do not earn points for Amtrak 7000-series Thruway services or the Canadian portion of joint Amtrak/VIA Rail Canada services.
Redeeming for TravelWith the 2016 changes, however, AGR eliminates
- the 100 point minimum (so fares under $50 earn fewer points), and
- the Acela "select city pairs" minimums for Business class (previously 500 points) and First class (previously 750 points)
- Select - 25%
- Select Plus - 50%
- Select Executive - 100%
For 2016, redemption rules have changed drastically. AGR has discontinued its fixed-point awards and zone system, transitioning instead to a revenue-based system. Under the new program, the points required for an award ticket--including multi-ride tickets and monthly passes--are, with some exceptions noted below, proportional to the cash price of the ticket.
In general, an AGR point is worth roughly 2.9 cents for non-Acela travel and 2.56 cents for Acela. (For example, 5,141 points are redeemable for a WAS-NYP regional one-way $149 ticket.) However, several new restrictions result in a lower yield for award redemptions:
Note: Reward tickets booked before 1/24/16 are subject to the new redemption policy if modified or canceled on or after that date.
Redemption options: With the 2016 changes, AGR members are able to redeem points for multi-ride tickets or monthly passes as well as standard one-way & round-trip tickets.
Sleeper-car travel: The number of points required for sleeper-car travel is calculated using the prevailing fare, which reflects the actual number of passengers occupying the room. Amtrak assesses a single accommodation charge for the room, plus one adult/child rail fare per occupant.
Auto Train travel: Members are able to redeem points for Auto Train travel using the same process as for other itineraries. Vehicle(s) are priced the same as other portions of the itinerary per standard Amtrak Auto Train policies. Priority Vehicle Offloading may not be redeemed using points.
Credit card rebate: Holders of either new Bank of America co-branded credit card (see below) receive a 5% points rebates on Amtrak award tickets. This is the same as the benefit offered by the recently discontinued Chase card.
Blackout dateseliminated: On the plus side, AGR will eliminate award redemption blackout dates and Acela time-of-day restrictions. When the 2016 changes were announced, AGR claimed that blackout dates were being eliminated. As of January 24, 2016, the AGR website still makes that claim. Unfortunately, it is a lie.
On January 24--the day the new program changes took effect--AGR Insider posted new information making clear that the blackout-date policy has not been abandoned:
Amtrak quietly added similar language to the website in early February 2016. The website also indicates that the point costs for "peak travel" dates and times may be increased in addition to any increase resulting resulting from a higher cash fare. To date, additional points costs of 50% and 100% have been observed on certain itineraries.
Under the old program rules, AGR published an advance list of blackout dates. AGR has provided no public information specifying the "peak travel dates or times" when general members are charged additional points or blacked out entirely from redeeming for travel.
Cancellation penalties: Canceling or modifying a standard ticket incurs an automatic 10% penalty. Doing so less than 24 hours in advance for non-sleeper tickets (or 14 days for sleeper-car travel) results in a "close-in" penalty of an additional 10% (i.e., a total penalty of 20%) for most travelers; however, this additional 10%/close-in penalty does not apply to Select Executive members.
No-shows result in 100% forfeiture for the missed segment, as well as cancellation and forfeiture for any later segments on the same itinerary. (As a result, it is less risky to book round-trip travel as two separate one-way tickets and, where possible, to book passengers individually rather than on a single shared ticket.)
For multiple-segment tickets, you can cancel the remainder even after travel begins. Thus, on a round-trip ticket you can cancel the return leg even if you have already begun the outbound leg.
Points & cash redemption: AGR has indicated that a points+cash redemption option will be introduced in 2016. No details are available, and it is unclear how this will work with respect to earning TQP and redeemable points.
Points ExpirationIn general, an AGR point is worth roughly 2.9 cents for non-Acela travel and 2.56 cents for Acela. (For example, 5,141 points are redeemable for a WAS-NYP regional one-way $149 ticket.) However, several new restrictions result in a lower yield for award redemptions:
- Minimum award pricing: Regardless of the cash fare, a non-Acela award ticket costs a minimum of 800 AGR points. As a result, using AGR points for such tickets with a cash price under $24 (e.g., LNC-PHL or BWI-WAS) results in lower yields.
Acela award tickets cost a minimum of 4,000 points. Using AGR points for Acela tickets costing less than $103 results in lower yields.
- No redemption for Saver awards: Per AGR's FT representative, members cannot redeem points for tickets at the least-expensive Saver rate. For instance, even if a $52 Saver WAS-NYP cash fare is available, points can be used only to purchase tickets at the equivalent of an $86 Value fare or higher (resulting in a yield of 1.75 cents/point at best).
- Peak travel dates/times: As discussed below under "Blackout Dates," Amtrak has quietly introduced a "peak travel" penalty in which certain high-demand itineraries (not published in advance) will cost 50% or even 100% more points than would normally correspond to the available cash fare.
- Most discount fares inapplicable: Under the 2016 program, AGR points are redeemable for tickets based only on the Adult or Child price, and not at the equivalent of Senior, AAA, or other discounted fares. (See post #83.)
- As was the case before, members may not redeem points for Amtrak 7000-series Thruway services or the Canadian portion of joint Amtrak/VIA Rail Canada services.
Redemption options: With the 2016 changes, AGR members are able to redeem points for multi-ride tickets or monthly passes as well as standard one-way & round-trip tickets.
Sleeper-car travel: The number of points required for sleeper-car travel is calculated using the prevailing fare, which reflects the actual number of passengers occupying the room. Amtrak assesses a single accommodation charge for the room, plus one adult/child rail fare per occupant.
Auto Train travel: Members are able to redeem points for Auto Train travel using the same process as for other itineraries. Vehicle(s) are priced the same as other portions of the itinerary per standard Amtrak Auto Train policies. Priority Vehicle Offloading may not be redeemed using points.
Credit card rebate: Holders of either new Bank of America co-branded credit card (see below) receive a 5% points rebates on Amtrak award tickets. This is the same as the benefit offered by the recently discontinued Chase card.
Blackout dates
On January 24--the day the new program changes took effect--AGR Insider posted new information making clear that the blackout-date policy has not been abandoned:
you may find limited availability on peak travel dates or times and it is possible that not every seat will be available for redemption. When redeeming points for trips during peak travel dates and times, some itineraries may be available only to our Select Plus and Select Executive members.
Under the old program rules, AGR published an advance list of blackout dates. AGR has provided no public information specifying the "peak travel dates or times" when general members are charged additional points or blacked out entirely from redeeming for travel.
Cancellation penalties: Canceling or modifying a standard ticket incurs an automatic 10% penalty. Doing so less than 24 hours in advance for non-sleeper tickets (or 14 days for sleeper-car travel) results in a "close-in" penalty of an additional 10% (i.e., a total penalty of 20%) for most travelers; however, this additional 10%/close-in penalty does not apply to Select Executive members.
No-shows result in 100% forfeiture for the missed segment, as well as cancellation and forfeiture for any later segments on the same itinerary. (As a result, it is less risky to book round-trip travel as two separate one-way tickets and, where possible, to book passengers individually rather than on a single shared ticket.)
For multiple-segment tickets, you can cancel the remainder even after travel begins. Thus, on a round-trip ticket you can cancel the return leg even if you have already begun the outbound leg.
CAUTION: The new policy is worded to imply that reservation "modification" and "cancellation" are treated differently. A "modification" ostensibly triggers a penalty only of "any fare difference returned to member," implying that changing to a more expensive fare should involve no penalty and changing to a less expensive fare should be subject to a penalty only on the refunded points difference.
Unfortunately, there are now multiple reports that there is no difference in practice: AGR is treating any change as a full cancellation and rebooking, and penalizing accordingly. This includes asking to be rebooked in a different room on the same train (at the same price), changing dates, or altering routing. It is unclear how the new policy will be applied to travel affected by service disruptions such as weather-related train cancellations.
For complete details on the 2016 change rules, including the special rules for multi-ride tickets and monthly passes, see the AGR website.Unfortunately, there are now multiple reports that there is no difference in practice: AGR is treating any change as a full cancellation and rebooking, and penalizing accordingly. This includes asking to be rebooked in a different room on the same train (at the same price), changing dates, or altering routing. It is unclear how the new policy will be applied to travel affected by service disruptions such as weather-related train cancellations.
Points & cash redemption: AGR has indicated that a points+cash redemption option will be introduced in 2016. No details are available, and it is unclear how this will work with respect to earning TQP and redeemable points.
As today, AGR MasterCard cardholders' points will not expire as long as their credit card accounts are open. AGR has moved its co-branded credit card relationship to Bank of America, which now offers two different versions of the card, including one with no annual fee. All Chase AGR MasterCards were converted to Chase Freedom cards on September 30, 2015.
- Class-of-service bonuses have been posting initially as non-TQPs, although subsequent data points suggest there is currently a delay of ~12 days in proper crediting.
- Agents have claimed that any change incurs the 10/20% penalty (up to and including asking for a changed room assignment) on the full value of the ticket, rather than just anything involving a reduction in price being penalized 10/20% on the changed portion
It remains unclear whether these are merely IT errors or unannounced program devaluations, particularly as in some cases the contradict explicitly stated terms and conditions.
Introducing the next stop for Amtrak Guest Rewards
Aug 29, 2015, 1:48 pm
#106
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South Park, CO
Programs: Tegridy Elite
Posts: 5,678
The other drawback to the cancel and modify penalty is that it is in points not dollars. For award travel I buy trip insurance that covers cancel or redeposit fees. (This can add up for a long family trip) However such insurance won't reimburse the value of points lost to point penalties like this. It would be great to perhaps have a choice between cash or points.
Aug 29, 2015, 3:04 pm
#107
Join Date: Jan 2014
Programs: Amtrak Guest Rewards (SE), Virgin America Elevate, Hyatt Gold Passport (Platinum), VIA Preference
Posts: 3,134
Something else does jump to mind that I didn't get into (what can I say, the last few days have been long): While Acela awards are cheaper on NEC-North than before (and if you do everything in the same bucket there's not much difference between the present situation and the past), the ability of one to earn status on NEC-North is substantially (and adversely) affected:
-Right now, doing 10 round-trips (20 one-ways) BOS-NYP would get you Select Plus and 20 round-trips (40 one-ways) Select Executive.
-Under Next Year's System, you get between 283 and 488 points. Of these, not all count towards status...the 25% class-of-service boner doesn't count, meaning you're looking at something like 226 to 390 TQPs. This means that you'll need between 26 and 45 one-way trips (13 and 23 round-trips) for Select Plus and 52 and 89 one-way trips (26 and 45 round-trips) for Select Executive. That is a BIG jump up.
There's also a heck of a smack on NEC-South outside of top bucket; at low bucket you go from needing 20 round-trips to 32 round-trips for Select Executive (and 10 to 16 for Select Plus).
Ah, well...at least we can safely say that everyone is getting screwed over somehow!
Edit: To piggyback on Fiero's comment, there are also a few credit cards which will reimburse various sorts of fees and I wouldn't be surprised if there's an Amex that would do so for redeposit fees...but being "billed" in points likely throttles any ability to work with that.
-Right now, doing 10 round-trips (20 one-ways) BOS-NYP would get you Select Plus and 20 round-trips (40 one-ways) Select Executive.
-Under Next Year's System, you get between 283 and 488 points. Of these, not all count towards status...the 25% class-of-service boner doesn't count, meaning you're looking at something like 226 to 390 TQPs. This means that you'll need between 26 and 45 one-way trips (13 and 23 round-trips) for Select Plus and 52 and 89 one-way trips (26 and 45 round-trips) for Select Executive. That is a BIG jump up.
There's also a heck of a smack on NEC-South outside of top bucket; at low bucket you go from needing 20 round-trips to 32 round-trips for Select Executive (and 10 to 16 for Select Plus).
Ah, well...at least we can safely say that everyone is getting screwed over somehow!
Edit: To piggyback on Fiero's comment, there are also a few credit cards which will reimburse various sorts of fees and I wouldn't be surprised if there's an Amex that would do so for redeposit fees...but being "billed" in points likely throttles any ability to work with that.
Aug 29, 2015, 3:36 pm
#108
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Twixt Lancaster & Reading, PA
Programs: Amtrak, Southwest, Choice Hotels, AAdvantage, Alaska
Posts: 46
Something else does jump to mind that I didn't get into (what can I say, the last few days have been long): While Acela awards are cheaper on NEC-North than before (and if you do everything in the same bucket there's not much difference between the present situation and the past), the ability of one to earn status on NEC-North is substantially (and adversely) affected:
-Right now, doing 10 round-trips (20 one-ways) BOS-NYP would get you Select Plus and 20 round-trips (40 one-ways) Select Executive.
-Under Next Year's System, you get between 283 and 488 points. Of these, not all count towards status...the 25% class-of-service boner doesn't count, meaning you're looking at something like 226 to 390 TQPs. This means that you'll need between 26 and 45 one-way trips (13 and 23 round-trips) for Select Plus and 52 and 89 one-way trips (26 and 45 round-trips) for Select Executive. That is a BIG jump up.
There's also a heck of a smack on NEC-South outside of top bucket; at low bucket you go from needing 20 round-trips to 32 round-trips for Select Executive (and 10 to 16 for Select Plus).
Ah, well...at least we can safely say that everyone is getting screwed over somehow!
Edit: To piggyback on Fiero's comment, there are also a few credit cards which will reimburse various sorts of fees and I wouldn't be surprised if there's an Amex that would do so for redeposit fees...but being "billed" in points likely throttles any ability to work with that.
-Right now, doing 10 round-trips (20 one-ways) BOS-NYP would get you Select Plus and 20 round-trips (40 one-ways) Select Executive.
-Under Next Year's System, you get between 283 and 488 points. Of these, not all count towards status...the 25% class-of-service boner doesn't count, meaning you're looking at something like 226 to 390 TQPs. This means that you'll need between 26 and 45 one-way trips (13 and 23 round-trips) for Select Plus and 52 and 89 one-way trips (26 and 45 round-trips) for Select Executive. That is a BIG jump up.
There's also a heck of a smack on NEC-South outside of top bucket; at low bucket you go from needing 20 round-trips to 32 round-trips for Select Executive (and 10 to 16 for Select Plus).
Ah, well...at least we can safely say that everyone is getting screwed over somehow!
Edit: To piggyback on Fiero's comment, there are also a few credit cards which will reimburse various sorts of fees and I wouldn't be surprised if there's an Amex that would do so for redeposit fees...but being "billed" in points likely throttles any ability to work with that.
I've earned about 82,000 AGR points to date, and redeemed 30,000. 2,000 was from a Samsonite partner purchase. A few hundred from an SPG hotel points transfer in Cambridge, MA in 2010. Less than 400 from an Apple partner purchase. EVERY BLESSED ONE of the remaining points I've earned was from Amtrak travel and tier bonuses. And now I get busted down by new 2016 AGR, and treated as some "redemption deadbeat" or something. It sours a relationship. I've spent over 5 years now literally and figuratively GOING OUT OF MY WAY to favor Amtrak travel, and I feel this treats me very shabbily. I feel a strong sense of betrayal, especially since my earning trips contribute essentially NADA to Amtrak's fiscal woes, due to my Pennsylvania brethren's tax contribution to lowering intrastate fares.
Shabby, Amtrak. Betrayal does not flatter you.
Last edited by VKurtB; Aug 29, 2015 at 3:45 pm
Aug 29, 2015, 3:43 pm
#109
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: PDX
Programs: DL DM, AS MVP 100K, Amtrak peon, Colbert Lifetime Platinum
Posts: 4,534
Anthony provided some examples of current edge redemption cases that will improve under the new program, ones that we know represent poor value now (unless you must travel and can't afford the cash fare, or unless you're connecting at the CHI hub as another poster noted).
To keep things in perspective, here are the revenue break-even marks at or below which sleeper redemptions would remain the same or better going forward. In other words, these are all fares at or below which I'd gladly pay cash now and save my points for a better value (especially with two pax). Won't be able to do that in the near future.
Roomette
1-zone: $434
2-zone: $579
3-zone: $1,014
Bedroom
1-zone: $724
2-zone: $1,159
3-zone: $1,739
The best charitable oddball scenario I could think of would be shorter-distance day trips that are presently a hefty 5,500 per person in coach. Example: OKJ-SLO on the Coast Starlight: Today's 11,000 for two in coach or 15,000 for a roomette, become 2,691 in coach or 5,313 for a roomette (at low non-Saver buckets). Now that is a really great improvement if you're looking to save the cash (as long as you forget the present relative value of those points, plugged into a more strategically lucrative zone-based award).
Otherwise, for most overnight trips, I'm just not seeing it.
To keep things in perspective, here are the revenue break-even marks at or below which sleeper redemptions would remain the same or better going forward. In other words, these are all fares at or below which I'd gladly pay cash now and save my points for a better value (especially with two pax). Won't be able to do that in the near future.
Roomette
1-zone: $434
2-zone: $579
3-zone: $1,014
Bedroom
1-zone: $724
2-zone: $1,159
3-zone: $1,739
The best charitable oddball scenario I could think of would be shorter-distance day trips that are presently a hefty 5,500 per person in coach. Example: OKJ-SLO on the Coast Starlight: Today's 11,000 for two in coach or 15,000 for a roomette, become 2,691 in coach or 5,313 for a roomette (at low non-Saver buckets). Now that is a really great improvement if you're looking to save the cash (as long as you forget the present relative value of those points, plugged into a more strategically lucrative zone-based award).
Otherwise, for most overnight trips, I'm just not seeing it.
Last edited by GoAmtrak; Aug 29, 2015 at 3:49 pm Reason: typo
Aug 29, 2015, 4:02 pm
#110
Join Date: Jan 2014
Programs: Amtrak Guest Rewards (SE), Virgin America Elevate, Hyatt Gold Passport (Platinum), VIA Preference
Posts: 3,134
Kurt,
I'm on my second year of Select Executive status and looking at a third. Yes, I have the credit card...but with respect to that, my understanding is that the card is a profit center for AGR (as similar cards are for about 95% of programs). I don't think I've ever done anything that would be an "abuse" of the system (I don't think breaking a redemption at DEN/ABQ counts). I've never done "loophole" trips. The number of "points run" trips I've done have largely been incidental and done in no small part to kill time (e.g. CHI-GLN when I had a long layover) or as part of a social event (e.g. at an AU Gathering). The closest I ever came, really, was trying to make good use of Acela Upgrade cards to maximize points.
Something like 90% of my points have been earned in the LD system (for the record, I've favored LD trains over Corridor ones because of the presence of good food...the ability to get a good dinner on my way home from Washington rather than being stuck in traffic is part of what sold me on Amtrak some years ago).
There's been a certain feeling of not having much to write home about in the program outside of corridors (witness my discussion of the value of the cards and/or lack thereof) except for the LD redemptions. And to be fair, I expected a modest cut-back there at some point (presumably another increase in redemption prices).
===== ===== ===== ===== =====
One serious technical question concerning the change(s):
-As I read the details of the penalties, there's only an issue of them if points are "refunded". What happens if someone is splitting a ticket? To clarify, let's assume I'm traveling WAS-CHI-LAX (to take a pretty plain example). Then I want to add someone to the WAS-CHI leg. If I "split" the ticket at CHI (so I now have two reservations and assuming that by doing so I don't end up with a lower overall cost), does that incur a partial 10% penalty?
I'm on my second year of Select Executive status and looking at a third. Yes, I have the credit card...but with respect to that, my understanding is that the card is a profit center for AGR (as similar cards are for about 95% of programs). I don't think I've ever done anything that would be an "abuse" of the system (I don't think breaking a redemption at DEN/ABQ counts). I've never done "loophole" trips. The number of "points run" trips I've done have largely been incidental and done in no small part to kill time (e.g. CHI-GLN when I had a long layover) or as part of a social event (e.g. at an AU Gathering). The closest I ever came, really, was trying to make good use of Acela Upgrade cards to maximize points.
Something like 90% of my points have been earned in the LD system (for the record, I've favored LD trains over Corridor ones because of the presence of good food...the ability to get a good dinner on my way home from Washington rather than being stuck in traffic is part of what sold me on Amtrak some years ago).
There's been a certain feeling of not having much to write home about in the program outside of corridors (witness my discussion of the value of the cards and/or lack thereof) except for the LD redemptions. And to be fair, I expected a modest cut-back there at some point (presumably another increase in redemption prices).
===== ===== ===== ===== =====
One serious technical question concerning the change(s):
-As I read the details of the penalties, there's only an issue of them if points are "refunded". What happens if someone is splitting a ticket? To clarify, let's assume I'm traveling WAS-CHI-LAX (to take a pretty plain example). Then I want to add someone to the WAS-CHI leg. If I "split" the ticket at CHI (so I now have two reservations and assuming that by doing so I don't end up with a lower overall cost), does that incur a partial 10% penalty?
Aug 29, 2015, 4:09 pm
#111
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Twixt Lancaster & Reading, PA
Programs: Amtrak, Southwest, Choice Hotels, AAdvantage, Alaska
Posts: 46
Anthony provided some examples of current edge redemption cases that will improve under the new program, ones that we know represent poor value now (unless you must travel and can't afford the cash fare, or unless you're connecting at the CHI hub as another poster noted).
To keep things in perspective, here are the revenue break-even marks at or below which sleeper redemptions would remain the same or better going forward. In other words, these are all fares at or below which I'd gladly pay cash now and save my points for a better value (especially with two pax). Won't be able to do that in the near future.
Roomette
1-zone: $434
2-zone: $579
3-zone: $1,014
Bedroom
1-zone: $724
2-zone: $1,159
3-zone: $1,739
The best charitable oddball scenario I could think of would be shorter-distance day trips that are presently a hefty 5,500 per person in coach. Example: OKJ-SLO on the Coast Starlight: Today's 11,000 for two in coach or 15,000 for a roomette, become 2,691 in coach or 5,313 for a roomette (at low non-Saver buckets). Now that is a really great improvement if you're looking to save the cash (as long as you forget the present relative value of those points, plugged into a more strategically lucrative zone-based award).
Otherwise, for most overnight trips, I'm just not seeing it.
To keep things in perspective, here are the revenue break-even marks at or below which sleeper redemptions would remain the same or better going forward. In other words, these are all fares at or below which I'd gladly pay cash now and save my points for a better value (especially with two pax). Won't be able to do that in the near future.
Roomette
1-zone: $434
2-zone: $579
3-zone: $1,014
Bedroom
1-zone: $724
2-zone: $1,159
3-zone: $1,739
The best charitable oddball scenario I could think of would be shorter-distance day trips that are presently a hefty 5,500 per person in coach. Example: OKJ-SLO on the Coast Starlight: Today's 11,000 for two in coach or 15,000 for a roomette, become 2,691 in coach or 5,313 for a roomette (at low non-Saver buckets). Now that is a really great improvement if you're looking to save the cash (as long as you forget the present relative value of those points, plugged into a more strategically lucrative zone-based award).
Otherwise, for most overnight trips, I'm just not seeing it.
But my swan song is next August's LAX-NOL bedroom on the Sunset Ltd, followed by NOL-PHL roomette on Crescent the next morning, essentially zeroing out my AGR account balance. Under these circumstances, I will feel no hesitancy to "break the bank" with such a trip, to be booked just a slight bit over two weeks from now. Under the new rules, its "use it now or lose it".
Aug 29, 2015, 4:44 pm
#112
In Memoriam
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: New York, NY, USA
Programs: HH Diamond, Amtrak Exec
Posts: 3,262
One serious technical question concerning the change(s):
-As I read the details of the penalties, there's only an issue of them if points are "refunded". What happens if someone is splitting a ticket? To clarify, let's assume I'm traveling WAS-CHI-LAX (to take a pretty plain example). Then I want to add someone to the WAS-CHI leg. If I "split" the ticket at CHI (so I now have two reservations and assuming that by doing so I don't end up with a lower overall cost), does that incur a partial 10% penalty?
-As I read the details of the penalties, there's only an issue of them if points are "refunded". What happens if someone is splitting a ticket? To clarify, let's assume I'm traveling WAS-CHI-LAX (to take a pretty plain example). Then I want to add someone to the WAS-CHI leg. If I "split" the ticket at CHI (so I now have two reservations and assuming that by doing so I don't end up with a lower overall cost), does that incur a partial 10% penalty?
However, penalty or not, there is another way to deal with such a change. Simply ask for an Open Sleeper ticket for the WAS-CHI leg from AGR. They can do that now, and I can't imagine why that would change going forward.
This would get you around the entire situation as your original PNR would not be changed.
Aug 29, 2015, 4:55 pm
#113
Join Date: Apr 2015
Programs: United Global Services, Amtrak Select Executive
Posts: 4,098
Something else does jump to mind that I didn't get into (what can I say, the last few days have been long): While Acela awards are cheaper on NEC-North than before (and if you do everything in the same bucket there's not much difference between the present situation and the past), the ability of one to earn status on NEC-North is substantially (and adversely) affected:
-Right now, doing 10 round-trips (20 one-ways) BOS-NYP would get you Select Plus and 20 round-trips (40 one-ways) Select Executive.
-Under Next Year's System, you get between 283 and 488 points. Of these, not all count towards status...the 25% class-of-service boner doesn't count, meaning you're looking at something like 226 to 390 TQPs. This means that you'll need between 26 and 45 one-way trips (13 and 23 round-trips) for Select Plus and 52 and 89 one-way trips (26 and 45 round-trips) for Select Executive. That is a BIG jump up.
There's also a heck of a smack on NEC-South outside of top bucket; at low bucket you go from needing 20 round-trips to 32 round-trips for Select Executive (and 10 to 16 for Select Plus).
Ah, well...at least we can safely say that everyone is getting screwed over somehow!
Edit: To piggyback on Fiero's comment, there are also a few credit cards which will reimburse various sorts of fees and I wouldn't be surprised if there's an Amex that would do so for redeposit fees...but being "billed" in points likely throttles any ability to work with that.
-Right now, doing 10 round-trips (20 one-ways) BOS-NYP would get you Select Plus and 20 round-trips (40 one-ways) Select Executive.
-Under Next Year's System, you get between 283 and 488 points. Of these, not all count towards status...the 25% class-of-service boner doesn't count, meaning you're looking at something like 226 to 390 TQPs. This means that you'll need between 26 and 45 one-way trips (13 and 23 round-trips) for Select Plus and 52 and 89 one-way trips (26 and 45 round-trips) for Select Executive. That is a BIG jump up.
There's also a heck of a smack on NEC-South outside of top bucket; at low bucket you go from needing 20 round-trips to 32 round-trips for Select Executive (and 10 to 16 for Select Plus).
Ah, well...at least we can safely say that everyone is getting screwed over somehow!
Edit: To piggyback on Fiero's comment, there are also a few credit cards which will reimburse various sorts of fees and I wouldn't be surprised if there's an Amex that would do so for redeposit fees...but being "billed" in points likely throttles any ability to work with that.
One way of looking at this is that NYP-BOS Acela passengers are now getting ripped off, when they used to be getting a fair deal. Another way of looking at this is that NYP-WAS Acela passengers used to be getting ripped off, and now are getting a fair deal.
Aug 29, 2015, 5:31 pm
#115
In Memoriam
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: New York, NY, USA
Programs: HH Diamond, Amtrak Exec
Posts: 3,262
As for the rules, I don't think that there are "official" rules posted yet on the AGR website. But the link below does describe some of the changes and gives you access to the points estimator that people have been talking about. Otherwise, for more info, start back on page 1 of this topic and read things again or ask more specific questions.
https://www.amtrakguestrewards.com/RideOn
Aug 29, 2015, 8:04 pm
#116
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: PDX
Posts: 469
I redid the math on some of the sleeper redemptions in the new system, given the info Anthony posted. It was worse than I thought, assuming traveling with multiple passengers. But the kicker that saver fares aren't eligible for points redemption...that is asinine! Nowhere have I seen that mentioned until reading through this thread. Its pretty bad to advertise a 2.9c point valuation, then add in later that said points cannot be used on the best fares. Just...wow.
Aug 30, 2015, 7:13 am
#117
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South Park, CO
Programs: Tegridy Elite
Posts: 5,678
I redid the math on some of the sleeper redemptions in the new system, given the info Anthony posted. It was worse than I thought, assuming traveling with multiple passengers. But the kicker that saver fares aren't eligible for points redemption...that is asinine! Nowhere have I seen that mentioned until reading through this thread. Its pretty bad to advertise a 2.9c point valuation, then add in later that said points cannot be used on the best fares. Just...wow.
Not making this crystal clear in the new AGR info is really poor. The only info is the VERY vague statement that not all fares may be eligible.
Aug 30, 2015, 8:10 am
#118
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Twixt Lancaster & Reading, PA
Programs: Amtrak, Southwest, Choice Hotels, AAdvantage, Alaska
Posts: 46
And so it goes - the deeper one looks, the bleaker it gets. Congratulations, Amtrak management. You have unwittingly adopted a tool with which your harshest Congressional critics will use to accomplish your dismantling.
Point is - with the clear exception of much of the WAS-BOS corridor, Amtrak travel is UNBELIEVABLY inconvenient and unreliable. Trust me. The Amish and flying phobics can take a system (the rest of the long distance routes, from my experience) only so far. The rest of the "fly over country" passenger list has a very high component of "one off" travelers using points earned by the more common aspects of their lives, whether that is using the NEC for work, or people using a credit card in a particular way.
Thought of another way, how many take Amtrak as a "necessity" rather than an "option", and a funky, quirky option at that? By adopting the new AGR, you are destroying the appeal of the system to the "optional" passenger, because the air option is cheaper, cleaner, quicker, less surly (yes, even with TSA thrown into the calculus), and fantastically more convenient in 99%+ of cases.
Yep, another step toward making Amtrak a NEC-only system. Keep in mind - as someone who lives near Reading, PA, the MOST DISTANT longest drive I have for an NEC destination is Boston, which I do in 6 hours. Here's the best part - because I start from where US222 crosses the PA Turnpike, the MOST CONVENIENT ROUTE to EVERY NEC major city (every one - BOS, NYP, PHL, BAL, WAS) doesn't include so much as a single foot of Interstate 95 for me!!! With a connection from the Keystone at 30th Street Station added to the mix, YOU CAN'T TOP THAT. I have no "need" for NEC service either. It's ALL optional to me. You're poisoning a long-term relationship with a customer who has been one of your biggest evangelists. Amtrak, you seem to have a death wish need to constantly prove your biggest critics correct.
Here's another future slogan you can use:
On A No-Fly List? No Problem, Amtrak Is Here For You.
Point is - with the clear exception of much of the WAS-BOS corridor, Amtrak travel is UNBELIEVABLY inconvenient and unreliable. Trust me. The Amish and flying phobics can take a system (the rest of the long distance routes, from my experience) only so far. The rest of the "fly over country" passenger list has a very high component of "one off" travelers using points earned by the more common aspects of their lives, whether that is using the NEC for work, or people using a credit card in a particular way.
Thought of another way, how many take Amtrak as a "necessity" rather than an "option", and a funky, quirky option at that? By adopting the new AGR, you are destroying the appeal of the system to the "optional" passenger, because the air option is cheaper, cleaner, quicker, less surly (yes, even with TSA thrown into the calculus), and fantastically more convenient in 99%+ of cases.
Yep, another step toward making Amtrak a NEC-only system. Keep in mind - as someone who lives near Reading, PA, the MOST DISTANT longest drive I have for an NEC destination is Boston, which I do in 6 hours. Here's the best part - because I start from where US222 crosses the PA Turnpike, the MOST CONVENIENT ROUTE to EVERY NEC major city (every one - BOS, NYP, PHL, BAL, WAS) doesn't include so much as a single foot of Interstate 95 for me!!! With a connection from the Keystone at 30th Street Station added to the mix, YOU CAN'T TOP THAT. I have no "need" for NEC service either. It's ALL optional to me. You're poisoning a long-term relationship with a customer who has been one of your biggest evangelists. Amtrak, you seem to have a death wish need to constantly prove your biggest critics correct.
Here's another future slogan you can use:
On A No-Fly List? No Problem, Amtrak Is Here For You.
Last edited by VKurtB; Aug 30, 2015 at 8:31 am
Aug 30, 2015, 8:13 am
#119
Join Date: Jan 2014
Programs: Amtrak Guest Rewards (SE), Virgin America Elevate, Hyatt Gold Passport (Platinum), VIA Preference
Posts: 3,134
The exclusion of the lowest fares is really negative. Even Southwest allows redemption on the lowest WGA fares. Similarly Delta allows redemptions using Pay With Miles on any fare.
Not making this crystal clear in the new AGR info is really poor. The only info is the VERY vague statement that not all fares may be eligible.
Not making this crystal clear in the new AGR info is really poor. The only info is the VERY vague statement that not all fares may be eligible.
Aug 30, 2015, 8:32 am
#120
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: On strike
Posts: 8,135
Agreed. It is one thing to exclude a handful of oddball promotional fares (e.g. Iowa Pacific's "bus buster" fares) or for the language to exist to permit the unforeseeability of needing to do so. However, the near-ubiquitous presence of Saver fares on the NEC means that you've basically ejected a commonly-available bucket without really bothering to disclose that.
Ugh.