MiamiAirport Formerly NY George

AA believes their contract enables them to close accounts at will determined by their criteria. Agreeing with some of these posters on FT won’t get their miles and/or account back. If one feels wrong they can always consult legal counsel. But obviously AA’s Legal Counsel doesn’t see a big possibility of a successful legal suit.

DWFI

Unfortunately it is relatively difficult to sue an airline as most tort law is on a state level, and airlines are effectively exempt from state law.

I think that for AA to ban people who made AAdv accounts for pets is reasonable. To ban folks who churned a bonus on their own account multiple times is, in my mind, absurd. AA can and should build the technology to stop this, instead of going after opportunists who exploit an AA-created loophole.

It's the same way as if I were to go to Best Buy and buy a TV. If the TV rings up for half of what it should, it's not my obligation to tell them about the problem so they can charge me more. I did exactly what they wanted me to - I purchased the TV at the terms that they offered to me (just as AA wants the customer to sign up for the credit card). End of story. If AA doesn't want people getting additional sign-up bonuses, then don't issue them!

Often1

Can't imagine why AA would spend shareholders' money to prevent a practice which is so easily dealt with, e.g., by zapping the churners' accounts.

All those blenders & gerbils with cards likely knew better than their owners, but don't speak English.

stc

I'd be very upset if people targeted IN THEIR NAME DIRECTLY who opened multiple accounts got shut down. Maybe there are some of them. But, I get the feeling that the people who got shut down are the ones who used MAILERS ADDRESSED TO OTHERS. Now, maybe I'm being naive here. And if the stuff really hits the fan, it will be the final straw in sending me from AA where I am spending money to maintain status for some silly reason back to DL where I have lifetime Gold. Really the only reason I'm still with AA is I find the BA flights from BOS to LHR more convenient.

stephem

Bingo, we have a winner. At least nobody on these threads, or the reddit before we were excluded from that, has suggested they were getting ~9 (or maybe double) SUBs per year with SUBs directed to them specifically. What they all seem to be implying by the little they will say is that they were generating SUB links through some activity that involved another name/account (maybe a real family member, maybe a pet, maybe a blender...) and then utilizing the link/code from that “other person’s” SUB offer to in fact get another new card issued in their own name. Apparently, neither Citi nor AA had a technical control to prevent this.

I have mistakenly had my wife sign up for an AA card that I thought she hadn’t had before and then spent the minimum spend and found out she didn’t qualify for the bonus (again). My limited experience is that SUB offers directed to a real person who has already gotten said bonus within some recent window of time is that they wont get another one, there is in fact a technical control there.

I’d be extremely interested in hearing a data point that included only solicitations to the specific FF account that is now shut down. I doubt there are any, because I think technical controls prevented anything like the kinds of numbers were have seen here.

So let’s cut to the chase, the real question is whether past use by a shut down account holder of SUB links or codes generated by virtue of creation of an AAdvantage account under a name other than the shutdown account holder is something AA feels empowered under its terms to crack down on. You may not like the answer, but short of suing, that’s the answer.

BTW, for all the bluster of suing, I haven't seen any moves by anyone yet. And the more I think about that the more I would ask a shut down account holder do you have any idea what sorts of questions you will be asked in your deposition and how widely permissive discovery into YOU is going to be? You may not think you are a scammer, but there is nothing prohibiting discovery into your life of MS/churning, and I doubt the average juror will see any of this as just “exploiting loopholes” or “normal conduct” like you do.

percysmith

Someone who threatened https://www.elliott.org/airline-prob...f-your-flight/

if it was Citi, they can be sued (5X TYP). But this is AA

VegasGambler

That's incorrect. Citi has the ability to control this; they choose not to for some (not all) mailers.

That's also incorrect. The only thing that controlled whether someone would get the bonus was whether they met the terms written on the mailer (if any). The rules were different for different offers for the same card. People who met the conditions got the bonus; people who didn't didn't. Some offers allowed you to get the bonus if you had gotten one recently, some didn't.

The key is, Citi had the ability to prevent you from getting a bonus if you had already gotten one; they intentionally chose not to for some offers. They also had the ability to limit a mailer to only be used by the addressee; they intentionally chose not to for some mailers. They only made these decisions for some (not all) offers.

This went on for many years with the full knowledge of Citi. This was not an accident on their part -- they created and enforced different rules for different offers. This was clear in their marketing materials -- rather than being copied and pasted, different offers had different terms written on them.

Visconti

In America, one can sue for anything and basically for any reason. Not a lawyer, but even they disagree all the time at the highest levels, so, as a matter of practice, I'd even take what they have to say with grain of salt. As with every profession, there are really dumb lawyers too.

What's the bare minimum cost of litigation? $15 - $20K for filing the complaint, service and showing up for AA's request to dismiss? Tack on another $50K if it goes to a short trial with the discovery process? So, minimum $10K retainer just to start? I suppose, for some emotional satisfaction, churners with about 3 Million + miles may consider this course. So, any churner with less than a few million can either: 1) lose money and sue for emotional satisfaction; 2) small claims where AA will simply contract any local lawyer to show up with mounds of evidence showing umpteen duplicate apps; or, 3) hope and pray for a class action (nothing is impossible, but good luck on this one). Even for a class action and assuming the Hail Mary is successful, it's a few pennies in the jar, but, at least there's some emotional satisfaction in the transfer of wealth from AA shareholders to a few lawyers?

Finally, even if one had 10 Million miles, if ever it had been possible to churn to that extent, anyone with resources or any kind of professional reputation on which he relies upon really want a public complaint, trial and discovery that sheds sunlights on any of these activities? Not making any judgements on anyone else, but, even I as a perk abuser would think twice before doing business with any of those who referred themselves in that Amex thing.

VegasGambler

You can file a DOT complaint for free. Going to court without doing so first seems foolish. If the DOT rules in your favor, you win, at no cost to you and minimal effort

If the DOT rules against you, you can file in small claims court for a minimal fee. The DOT even has instructions and tips on their site about how to do it! The problem that you mention (the case not being worth pursuing due to high costs relative to the value of the claim) is exactly why small claims court exists.

Visconti

Sure.

While I have no personal or any experience with DOT, SRO complaints in even the most highly regulated industries rarely meet with success. You receive them, in house counsel drafts a reply rejecting it, and you wait for the complaint, which in 99% of cases are never filed. Small claims is an avenue, but AA's not going to really care about this. They'll just hire some local lawyer on a contract rate and handle them all in cookie cutter fashion where this lawyer will just show up with the mounds of evidence (say, the 5 - 10 duplicate Apps) that will sure look like "perk abuse."

Just as with lawyers, you have dumb Judges too, who often have to be often guided by really smart lawyers on how to apply a law/statue, but you'll be without that in small claims. So, the hopes will be pinned on what the Judge deems (assuming he's even going to ignore Federal preemption arguments) "reasonable" behavior, which, unless he's a FF miles perk abuser himself/herself, will find little reason to have beyond 2 of the same card.

VegasGambler

In California they can only be represented by an attorney if they are deemed mentally incompetent. I'm not sure how that applies to a corporation.

Global321

Pretty much agree.

Interesting if one were to sue Citi instead. After all, Citi approved the account knowing you had x other accounts. There are a lot of traps there for Citi and the person suing:
1. Plaintiff claims I did not know there was a limit. Citi says you should have known. Plaintiff says... then why did you Citi give me the miles.
2. Plaintiff claims I did not know there was a limit. Citi says you should have known. Plaintiff says... then why did you keep send me mailers/offers.
3. Citi would certainly argue that your miles are subject to you following the AA rules. However, Citi would have a hard time showing a specific rule you violated but would probably cite your responsibility to follow AA rules.
4. Citi would certainly argue that they DID award you the miles and that is where their obligation ends.

I could see a judge ruling either way against Citi. (AA would cite Ginsburg and probably win easily.) It could simply come down to whether that judge has felt burned by big banks or big airlines. (There would be enough evidence to rule either way in small claims court.) Of course, small claims cases are generally not considered precedent-setting so a win or loss in one court would not likely be carried over to another court.

beachfan

In California, the attorney must be an employee of the company being sued , cannot hire outside counsel

Global321

deleted

Visconti

No experience with small claims personally, though I wouldn't hesitate to file one. And, had a major SE Asian Airline insisted that I exceeded the 24 hour cancellation period when I in fact hadn't (this occurred soon enough where I still had the emails and time stamps), I would have filed and threatened them with doing so.

So, in CA, what's the limit? $10K? Depending on the amount, AA will just 1) settle & blacklist plaintiff from the rewards program, or 2) station an in house council in CA. I'd probably just settle, purge and move onwards and fix my core business.