ricohitman

"never have been earned..." That's such a terrible misconception of what's happening.

Dave Noble

seems to be spot on in relation to the card bonuses that shouldn't have been earned

Has anyone that directly received an invitation to apply for a card and met all conditions ( such as not having other cards etc ) , reported having action taken?

Seems to be that there was a belief that once the points were transferred to AA that they were then in the clear

CodeAdam10

Clearly, your sources have incomplete or false information as you don’t seem to be properly aware of the wide spectrum of individuals caught up in this. I’m not sure what DPs you have at your disposal to not only draw a hardline conclusion of “miles that should never have been earned”, but to also be adamant with total certainty that _everyone_ affected by this is guilty by default.

joe_miami

He didn’t make either of those claims.

sleuth

They didn’t “earn” anything. They purposely set up fake accounts in order to generate mailers that did not contain the 24 month language. You seriously want those of us who played by the SUB rules to feel sorry for those that didn’t, don’t you?

Dave Noble

Paragraph 2 - post 401

"I certainly appreciate why AA may feel someone with 10...15...20 SUBs in one year is not someone they want as a customer. Fine. That part is understandable and perhaps even respectable for a for-profit business to decide to protect themselves from further loss.

And I’ll assume that majority of the people playing this game at that level knew as much as well. They probably expected getting permanently canned by Citi sooner or later."

Seems to be pretty conclusive that most people knew that what they were doing was wrong ( or at least you are saying so )
If what they were doing was wrong, then it doesn't seem an unreasonable inferrence that they should not have been receiving the rewards for doing so
If they should not have been receiving the rewards, then taking them back seems perfectly reasonable

It just seems that there was a belief that once the miles were credited to AA, that somehow they were safe and that the card company could not get them back


Is there any person who has not been trying to screw the system caught up in this and unable to get it resolved. I would suspect that card company would work to fix the issue for a genuine customer

stephem

From a legal theory standpoint, there are different types of damages with different motivations. Since AA is judge, jury and executioner, they can pick their own theory on damages. I’d say here there is a bit of “scare the ... out of people” in their decision to cancel all awards and lock accounts, a bit of a punative and deterrent model wrapped in one. And to answer your question, no, there is no reasonable boundary here, you're all at AAs mercy. I presume there are some formerly “living large” folks stranded half way around the world this holiday season. But what i really want to learn is how many bloggers get shut down in this...

GUWonder

I would be interested in reading about that stuff too, but in terms of first-hand accounts from
the commercial miles and points bloggers.

I would have to assume that some of the card-pushing bloggers who covered the way to push the limits of this kind of thing are amongst those who had practiced what they preached at least in this regard. But maybe most of them got into the game early enough that they lost interest in doing it for themselves and stopped doing it back far enough in time that they have so far escaped AA’s scopes?

Global321

AFAIK I have not exploited a single program rule. I am sure there are a lot of FTers out there that are rule followers just like me.

I have no idea if the folks that have had their accounts closed have followed the rules or not, or "exploited a program rule or two or three or hundred".

Yes, I 100% complain about rules and policies, but in the end, I follow them. Why? I don't want my account closed/forfeited.

CodeAdam10

And that right there is the problem. You are using a blanket statement and seem to firmly believe (for whatever reasons) that every single individual caught up in this mess set up fake accounts and used fake mailers and that’s that. Again I’m not sure what sources people have here to use such definitive tone in their opinions on something so raw. It’s astonishing.

I would like to think anyone who has been in the frequent flyer communities and credit card m&p game (whether within the rules, or otherwise) would at least sympathize with the way this has been handled. It’s not about feeling sorry for them, but it’s also not about laughing at others misery. I have tried rationalizing upthread and elsewhere that this sort of overreaching behavior can be applied to ANY gray-area, and that the vast majority here probably have taken advantage of something gray at one point or another (aside from Dave Noble, of course), but even making that comparison didn’t sink in for some.

While I’m not surprised with some laughing at those caught up in this, that’s their prerogative, I’m a bit surprised at the lack of consensus that this could have been handled much differently (with the same end result of getting rid of extreme churners).


Look, my beef remains with the way this was phased out and how it’s being handled. But these are opinions of random bystanders and to AA - they are meaningless. I have shared my viewpoint and I appreciate that not all will see this (or anything else) in the same light. But whenever a person or an entity uses a blanket one-size-fits-all approach, there is collateral damage and some who didn’t do what is being perceived get caught up in it all with no recourse because it’s a one way hurricane running its course irrespective of what’s in it’s path.

Unfortunately it is my opinion that Citi won’t do anything. It’s evident looking at the way this has transpired, but I’d love to see otherwise. Only time will tell, but by then it will be too late for it to be anything meaningful for those who needed quicker intervention (re cancelled travels).

—

Thanks all. I’m done here.

OssianBlue

The application screen allowed all information to be modified up to and including the frequent flyer number of applicant.

Four corners.

CodeAdam10

lol, oh really?

I didn’t care to thoroughly look at your post history but just on the first couple pages:

- Here you are participating in CX “mistake fare”. Actually not only participating, but trying to find DPs to ‘skip’ the final leg. You have been quite active in this thread.

[Premium Fare Gone]: CX: Vietnam to North America from $674 (J) and $1100 (F)

[Premium Fare Gone]: CX: Vietnam to North America from $674 (J) and $1100 (F)

Yes I’m aware the fare was ‘honored’ by CX. Yet it was a mistake fare, wasn’t meant to be live. Shame on all who booked it right? Even bigger shame on those who booked it multiple times. And then those who want to find ways to skip the last leg. Wow.

...perhaps AA should lock and nuke all those who participated in this “mistake fare” and then credited the flights to AA in order to earn cheap AA status? Certainly sounds like exploiting. Why should AA allow this practice to continue!? AA program doesn’t offer OW reciprocal earning opportunities so passengers can exploit mistake In’tl fares and credit to AA. Hmm.

...

Oh looksie here. You’re indirectly advocating that someone could edit a LEGAL immigration document with fake info with a smiley face? Please tell me this isn’t so. This is definitely not allowed and sounds more severe than multiple SUBs.

[Premium Fare Gone]: CX: Vietnam to North America from $674 (J) and $1100 (F)

...

Anyway. I’m not picking on you. Just merely trying to point out there’s no one truly ‘innocent’ here.

richarddd

The theme of many posts is that just because you can get away with something doesn't make it right.

The reply is that Citi and AA, by allowing this behavior, blessed it, so should not complain at this stage. The counter is that people engaging in the activity must have known it was exploitative. Then, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Discussion usually goes in circles from there.

gmt4

Most importantly -for years- going way back there was no legalese (fine print, T&Cs, etc) that prevented the transfer of the mailers, nor was there any language that limited the bonuses. That did change, but for a long time there were no limits. Even after, there were targeted offers that didn't contain language.

I said it in the thread in the Citi forum and I'll say it here- Citi and AA knowingly allowed this to happen and wantonly profited off of consumer card churning. Literally every other card issuer had clamped down on SUBs over the past 3-4 years. There was absolutely no way Citi and AA had no idea about what was going on. The step by step playbook was completely public. We all know every card issuer and airline cruises these internet blogs & sites. Anyone who acts surprised or claims they didn't know about churning (Citi, AA, and especially bloggers and twitter clowns) is completely full of it.

GUWonder

If AA were more into the game of giving individual warnings first and do so without taking punitive action of any sort against individuals, then a lot of this hoopla probably wouldn't exist. But AA chose a different course than that, and so now we have this situation over a bunch of account shut-downs for what may have been previously at least somewhat tolerated or ignored behavior that seemed to cause AA no indigestion for quite some time and then some.

Something has changed to cause AA to at least somewhat change course. I am curious to know what has changed for AA so that it felt like this was the time and way to do this now, and I am curious to know if that change has to do with the relationship between AA and Citi on a level that goes above and beyond an issue of a group of AA accounts being shut-down for Citi-card-churning-related reasons.