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AA Bump Rates; compensation for VDB / Voluntary Denied Boarding (master thread)

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Old Mar 31, 2016, 5:15 pm
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AA Bump Rates: Volunteer Compensation / Voluntary Denied Boarding

Passengers involuntarily denied boarding on AA are denied usually after calls for volunteers to accept vouchers (and occasionally variable other benefits), usually beginning at $200 or $300 but possibly going significantly higher, depending on passenger response. See more below, including AA Conditions of Carriage.

See IDB / Involuntarily Denied Boarding on AA & Compensation (master thread) for INVOLUNTARILY denied boarding.

Link to US Dept. of Transportation Aviation Consumer Protection Division's "Fly-Rights - A Consumer Guide to Air Travel" section on Overbooking

"IDB" (involuntarily denied boarding) compensation is governed in the USA by "14 CFR 250.5 - Amount of denied boarding compensation for passengers denied boarding involuntarily".

Link to CFR §250.5; as well:

14 CFR § 250.2b Carriers to request volunteers for denied boarding.
(a) In the event of an oversold flight, every carrier shall request volunteers for denied boarding before using any other boarding priority. A “volunteer” is a person who responds to the carrier's request for volunteers and who willingly accepts the carriers' offer of compensation, in any amount, in exchange for relinquishing the confirmed reserved space. Any other passenger denied boarding is considered for purposes of this part to have been denied boarding involuntarily, even if that passenger accepts the denied boarding compensation.

(b) Every carrier shall advise each passenger solicited to volunteer for denied boarding, no later than the time the carrier solicits that passenger to volunteer, whether he or she is in danger of being involuntarily denied boarding and, if so, the compensation the carrier is obligated to pay if the passenger is involuntarily denied boarding. If an insufficient number of volunteers come forward, the carrier may deny boarding to other passengers in accordance with its boarding priority rules.

14 CFR § 250.9 Written explanation of denied boarding compensation and boarding priorities, and verbal notification of denied boarding compensation.
(a) Every carrier shall furnish passengers who are denied boarding involuntarily from flights on which they hold confirmed reserved space immediately after the denied boarding occurs, a written statement explaining the terms, conditions, and limitations of denied boarding compensation, and describing the carriers' boarding priority rules and criteria. The carrier shall also furnish the statement to any person upon request at all airport ticket selling positions which are in the charge of a person employed exclusively by the carrier, or by it jointly with another person or persons, and at all boarding locations being used by the carrier.

Link to AA Conditions of Carriage, "Oversales"

In the European Union, EC261/2004 governs denied boarding compensation.

Link to EC261 / EC 261/2004 complaints and AA (master thread)

On American Airlines, you are sometimes ineligible for IDB as allowed by the USDOT:
If a flight is oversold (more passengers hold confirmed reservations than there are seats available), no one may be denied boarding against his or her will until airline personnel first ask for volunteers who will give up their reservation willingly, in exchange for compensation of the airline’s choosing. If there are not enough volunteers, other passengers may be denied boarding involuntarily in accordance with the following boarding priority of American. In such events, American will usually deny boarding based upon check-in time, but we may also consider factors such as severe hardships, fare paid, and status within the AAdvantage® program.

If you are denied boarding involuntarily, you are entitled to a payment of
‘‘denied boarding compensation’’ from the airline unless:

- You have not fully complied with the airline’s ticketing, check-in and reconfirmation requirements, or you are not acceptable for transportation under the airline’s usual rules and practices; or

- You are denied boarding because the flight is canceled; or

You are denied boarding because a smaller capacity aircraft was substituted for safety or operational reasons; or

- On a flight operated with an aircraft having 60 or fewer seats, you are denied boarding due to safety-related weight/balance restrictions that limit payload; or

- You are offered accommodations in a section of the aircraft other than specified in your ticket, at no extra charge (a passenger seated in a section for which a lower fare is charged must be given an appropriate refund); or

- The airline is able to place you on another flight or flights that are planned to reach your next stopover or final destination within one hour of the planned arrival time of your original flight.[/code]

The previous thread is http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ameri...solidated.html
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AA Bump Rates; compensation for VDB / Voluntary Denied Boarding (master thread)

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Old Aug 10, 2018, 10:58 am
  #541  
 
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Originally Posted by jjmoore
But if you sign the voucher (regardless of how you were coerced into signing it), you have relinquished your rights to additional compensation. It is going to be very difficult to dispute that. As I always advise, do not sign something unless you know exactly what you are agreeing to. Without signing the VDB document in this case, it would be IDB... period. I think legally, this is quite simple and there is no real grey area. I believe AA should still investigate the circumstances and it would be in their interests to provide a good-will gesture to this pax to prevent additional negative PR.
Well, I would assume AA could track that the posters ticket was indeed scanned, as he did board. At that point, any previous arrangement should be null. Isn't this the whole point - once you are seated, the airline cannot take you off*

*Of course in extreme situations, which this was not.
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Old Aug 10, 2018, 11:45 am
  #542  
 
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Thank you all for your replies and your input on this. I was ready to let it go but it seems I should further pursue it. I am wondering if I should write to AA using their website form or if I should send an actual letter in the mail. I also remember the first name of the person who told me that there is an issue with my ticket but I think he was not even manning that gate. I assumed that he was asked by the GA to go find me and he came onboard looking for me with a post-it in his hand. I do feel bad if he faces any disciplinary action TBH...

In any case I'll put together a letter with just facts and get it ready. Please let me know which is the most appropriate means of communicating this to AA.

Thanks again!
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Old Aug 10, 2018, 12:59 pm
  #543  
 
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Originally Posted by ngls
Thank you all for your replies and your input on this. I was ready to let it go but it seems I should further pursue it. I am wondering if I should write to AA using their website form or if I should send an actual letter in the mail. I also remember the first name of the person who told me that there is an issue with my ticket but I think he was not even manning that gate. I assumed that he was asked by the GA to go find me and he came onboard looking for me with a post-it in his hand. I do feel bad if he faces any disciplinary action TBH...

In any case I'll put together a letter with just facts and get it ready. Please let me know which is the most appropriate means of communicating this to AA.

Thanks again!
I would do it online....
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Old Aug 10, 2018, 2:44 pm
  #544  
 
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Originally Posted by jjmoore
But if you sign the voucher (regardless of how you were coerced into signing it), you have relinquished your rights to additional compensation.
No, that's not true. If you didn't have the option to remain on the plane, the airline IDBed you and owes you IDB compensation. The airline can't enforce an agreement that is contrary to the law.
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Old Aug 10, 2018, 5:23 pm
  #545  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
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Originally Posted by jjmoore
But if you sign the voucher (regardless of how you were coerced into signing it), you have relinquished your rights to additional compensation. It is going to be very difficult to dispute that. ...
All contracts require a "meeting of the minds". OP never agreed to the terms being offered, After being lied to on the plane, and arguably mislead by the ground crew, I would think one could make a strong argument that there was no agreement. Being lied to by the airline (fake 'problem with your ticket') probably chips away at their credibility in this situation.


Originally Posted by BThumme
...- once you are seated, the airline cannot take you off*

*Of course in extreme situations, which this was not.
Simply not true. That is only a policy by some airlines. They can remove anyone for any reason. If IVDB, compensation is spelled out.
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Old Aug 10, 2018, 6:46 pm
  #546  
 
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Originally Posted by Global321
All contracts require a "meeting of the minds". OP never agreed to the terms being offered, After being lied to on the plane, and arguably mislead by the ground crew, I would think one could make a strong argument that there was no agreement. Being lied to by the airline (fake 'problem with your ticket') probably chips away at their credibility in this situation.

Simply not true. That is only a policy by some airlines. They can remove anyone for any reason. If IVDB, compensation is spelled out.
I disagree 100%. The mistake was made in signing the VDB document... PERIOD. This signature is tangible proof that the agreement occurred. There is no legal recourse with that in hand. Right now, it is one person's word against another... and a signed document relinquishing responsibility in exchange for compensation. This simply cannot be overturned into an IDB, and personally, I think it would be silly and a waste of time to pursue as such.

I believe the right course of action is a straight-forward, unemotional presentation of the facts of the situation to the airline in hopes of an additional good-will gesture.

Like I have reiterated several times already, signing that document ends any possibility of an IDB.... regardless of the situation that led to it.
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Old Aug 10, 2018, 6:48 pm
  #547  
 
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Originally Posted by jordyn
No, that's not true. If you didn't have the option to remain on the plane, the airline IDBed you and owes you IDB compensation. The airline can't enforce an agreement that is contrary to the law.
Emotionally, I agree with you, but practically, based on the input from the OP, I cannot agree. The OP signed the VDB document and took the compensation, so practically, the situation was resolved by the airline without IDB compensation. All the OP had to do was disagree and not sign the document, and then file a complaint with DoT, and the airline would have been forced to pay IDB compensation.
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Old Aug 10, 2018, 6:54 pm
  #548  
 
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Originally Posted by ngls
I see where you are coming from but I am wondering if signing that VDB voucher relinquishes all future claims. Also, I told the gate agent that you never told me what my options are before you gave away my seat. She was pretty aggressive and said "You never asked!" I was like I want to make sure that I get home before noon tomorrow and then she worked out an itinerary for me which would work that (regardless if I got stuck in DCA for the whole day due to the delay). In any case, this left a sour taste in my mouth as I was pulled out of the plane and I was told that "You should go and talk to customer service since there is a problem with your ticket". In the past, when they needed my seat after boarding, they come in and say "It seems we will need your seat, are you still interested?"

Thinking now if I should write to AA as I've complained a few times lately due to their constant mess ups and I don't want to get blacklisted!
@ngls ... did you sign the document for the compensation? After re-reading your posts, this was not clear. If not, I will retract some of my previous messages and advise you to email AA asking for IDB compensation. Based on what I read, I have made the inference that you accepted the $570 in AA travel credit..... which one if true?
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Old Aug 10, 2018, 7:06 pm
  #549  
 
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Originally Posted by jjmoore
I disagree 100%. The mistake was made in signing the VDB document... PERIOD. This signature is tangible proof that the agreement occurred. There is no legal recourse with that in hand. Right now, it is one person's word against another... and a signed document relinquishing responsibility in exchange for compensation. This simply cannot be overturned into an IDB, and personally, I think it would be silly and a waste of time to pursue as such.

I believe the right course of action is a straight-forward, unemotional presentation of the facts of the situation to the airline in hopes of an additional good-will gesture.

Like I have reiterated several times already, signing that document ends any possibility of an IDB.... regardless of the situation that led to it.
Coerusion to sign an agreement under false pretenses would certainly invalidate any agreement. Safe to say 'there is a problem with your ticket' was false pretenses. At that point, OP was removed from the plane, not given any options to get home and it could be easily argued he signed the agreement under duress and false pretenses. Also grounds for declaring the agreement invalid.

Further, airlines are required by law to explain your rights when you are IVDB. I am guessing they did not do that, but do not know. (I don't think you do either.) Of course, the airline is going to argue OP was not IVDB. Up to the powers that be to decide that. If they rule OP was IVDB, and if the airline did indeed not follow the law, the agreement with the airline would be invalid and OP would be entitled to IVDB. (And yes, there are a lot of 'if's' in that statement.)

However, I do agree with you, OP's simplest path is to follow-up with AA and explain the situation. My guess is they will offer up something. Best to probably take it and move on.
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Old Aug 10, 2018, 7:12 pm
  #550  
 
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Originally Posted by jjmoore
@ngls ... did you sign the document for the compensation? After re-reading your posts, this was not clear. If not, I will retract some of my previous messages and advise you to email AA asking for IDB compensation. Based on what I read, I have made the inference that you accepted the $570 in AA travel credit..... which one if true?
Sorry if this was not clear. I DID sign the VDB document (for a $570 compensation) not thinking too much about it at that moment. On my way to the hotel, I put everything together in my mind, the old couple who volunteered (before me) and the fact that I saw them walking down the jetbridge with a younger girl very late before they closed the gate (when I was disembarking). Also, when I was being rebooked, a lady was yelling at the gate agents that "you gave away my seat" (she must have been the second overbooked passenger who didn't make it on time).

So in a nutshell, I did sign the VDB document so I am not sure if there is anything that can be done at this point.
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Old Aug 10, 2018, 7:16 pm
  #551  
 
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Originally Posted by Global321
Coerusion to sign an agreement under false pretenses would certainly invalidate any agreement. Safe to say 'there is a problem with your ticket' was false pretenses. At that point, OP was removed from the plane, not given any options to get home and it could be easily argued he signed the agreement under duress and false pretenses. Also grounds for declaring the agreement invalid.

Further, airlines are required by law to explain your rights when you are IVDB. I am guessing they did not do that, but do not know. (I don't think you do either.) Of course, the airline is going to argue OP was not IVDB. Up to the powers that be to decide that. If they rule OP was IVDB, and if the airline did indeed not follow the law, the agreement with the airline would be invalid and OP would be entitled to IVDB. (And yes, there are a lot of 'if's' in that statement.)

However, I do agree with you, OP's simplest path is to follow-up with AA and explain the situation. My guess is they will offer up something. Best to probably take it and move on.
I am certainly in agreement that the GA did not handle this correctly. Besides, once on the plane, they cannot remove you, and likely should have IDBed those pax unless presenting options and coming to an agreement with you and the other pax before standing up from the seat on the plane.

Anyway, hopefully this is a lesson to all those out there (speaking from my experiences of VDB negotiation probably 60-70 times over the years).... do NOT sign a VDB form unless you are 100% satisfied with your compensation and your protection.....

Another note to the OP @ngls ... I would certainly complain about the mx cancellation on your protection flight as well... you are probably due a good-will gesture for that mess-up as well.
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Old Aug 10, 2018, 9:31 pm
  #552  
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Originally Posted by jjmoore
But if you sign the voucher (regardless of how you were coerced into signing it), you have relinquished your rights to additional compensation. It is going to be very difficult to dispute that. As I always advise, do not sign something unless you know exactly what you are agreeing to. Without signing the VDB document in this case, it would be IDB... period. I think legally, this is quite simple and there is no real grey area. I believe AA should still investigate the circumstances and it would be in their interests to provide a good-will gesture to this pax to prevent additional negative PR.
+1, the form you sign when you volunteer to be denied boarding is a waiver excluding the airline from any claims arising for your disembarkment. This protects them from that DOT rule. One could argue that there was coercion, but that's a pretty steep hill to climb in this instance since the OP was interested in the VDB before being denied and asked to board. I personally think they will offer some sort of gesture of goodwill (miles). There really isn't anything forcing AA to "do the right thing" otherwise.
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Old Aug 18, 2018, 10:58 am
  #553  
 
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Originally Posted by uxb
+1, the form you sign when you volunteer to be denied boarding is a waiver excluding the airline from any claims arising for your disembarkment. This protects them from that DOT rule. One could argue that there was coercion, but that's a pretty steep hill to climb in this instance since the OP was interested in the VDB before being denied and asked to board. I personally think they will offer some sort of gesture of goodwill (miles). There really isn't anything forcing AA to "do the right thing" otherwise.
Sorry I'm late coming back to this, but once again the DOT is 100% clear that the airline can't modify the situation to be VDB after the fact if you weren't given a choice to stay on the plane. Since people seem to be asserting "no, signing the VDB form makes it VDB no matter what", I'll just point you at the DOT's explicit guidance on this[PDF], notably:

To be reported as a volunteer on Form 251, the passenger must be given the option to board the flight. When people are bumped involuntarily, offering compensation does not qualify them to be classified as volunteers on Form 251
Further, if someone is involuntarily denied boarding, the airline is allowed to offer a voucher but only if they first disclose that you would have been eligible for cash compensation, so the very fact that the only thing they offered was a violation of the IDB rules. The fact that AA tricked ngls into signing a form does not mean they get to ignore the DOT's very clear rules on the handling of denied boarding, and the DOT has taken airlines to task on multiple occasions for attempting to recategorize IDB events into VDB like this.
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Old Aug 18, 2018, 12:03 pm
  #554  
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Originally Posted by jordyn
Sorry I'm late coming back to this, but once again the DOT is 100% clear that the airline can't modify the situation to be VDB after the fact if you weren't given a choice to stay on the plane. Since people seem to be asserting "no, signing the VDB form makes it VDB no matter what", I'll just point you at the DOT's explicit guidance on this[PDF], notably:



Further, if someone is involuntarily denied boarding, the airline is allowed to offer a voucher but only if they first disclose that you would have been eligible for cash compensation, so the very fact that the only thing they offered was a violation of the IDB rules. The fact that AA tricked ngls into signing a form does not mean they get to ignore the DOT's very clear rules on the handling of denied boarding, and the DOT has taken airlines to task on multiple occasions for attempting to recategorize IDB events into VDB like this.
That's nice, but the time to have argued that point was BEFORE the OP signed the VDB waiver. The waiver specifically states that the person waives their right to ex post facto claims against UA. ngls is within their right to file a complaint with the DOT, but YMMV since the OP signed the form (which is what UA will give in response) and Trump. That's just my two cents and this conversation doesn't have to go any further than that because we've beaten a dead horse.
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Old Aug 18, 2018, 4:20 pm
  #555  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Originally Posted by uxb
That's nice, but the time to have argued that point was BEFORE the OP signed the VDB waiver.
Okay, if you're not even going to grapple with the language provided by the DOT about it counting as IDB even if compensation is provided, I guess you're right there's no point in having a conversation, which usually involves discussing the actual arguments the other person has made.

I'd highly encourage ngls to file a complaint with the DOT if AA doesn't provide something like IDB compensation. You can't sign a form to release AA from its obligations under the law.
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