Last edit by: Prospero
AA Bump Rates: Volunteer Compensation / Voluntary Denied Boarding
Passengers involuntarily denied boarding on AA are denied usually after calls for volunteers to accept vouchers (and occasionally variable other benefits), usually beginning at $200 or $300 but possibly going significantly higher, depending on passenger response. See more below, including AA Conditions of Carriage.
See IDB / Involuntarily Denied Boarding on AA & Compensation (master thread) for INVOLUNTARILY denied boarding.
Link to US Dept. of Transportation Aviation Consumer Protection Division's "Fly-Rights - A Consumer Guide to Air Travel" section on Overbooking
"IDB" (involuntarily denied boarding) compensation is governed in the USA by "14 CFR 250.5 - Amount of denied boarding compensation for passengers denied boarding involuntarily".
Link to CFR §250.5; as well:
14 CFR § 250.2b Carriers to request volunteers for denied boarding.
(a) In the event of an oversold flight, every carrier shall request volunteers for denied boarding before using any other boarding priority. A “volunteer” is a person who responds to the carrier's request for volunteers and who willingly accepts the carriers' offer of compensation, in any amount, in exchange for relinquishing the confirmed reserved space. Any other passenger denied boarding is considered for purposes of this part to have been denied boarding involuntarily, even if that passenger accepts the denied boarding compensation.
(b) Every carrier shall advise each passenger solicited to volunteer for denied boarding, no later than the time the carrier solicits that passenger to volunteer, whether he or she is in danger of being involuntarily denied boarding and, if so, the compensation the carrier is obligated to pay if the passenger is involuntarily denied boarding. If an insufficient number of volunteers come forward, the carrier may deny boarding to other passengers in accordance with its boarding priority rules.
14 CFR § 250.9 Written explanation of denied boarding compensation and boarding priorities, and verbal notification of denied boarding compensation.
(a) Every carrier shall furnish passengers who are denied boarding involuntarily from flights on which they hold confirmed reserved space immediately after the denied boarding occurs, a written statement explaining the terms, conditions, and limitations of denied boarding compensation, and describing the carriers' boarding priority rules and criteria. The carrier shall also furnish the statement to any person upon request at all airport ticket selling positions which are in the charge of a person employed exclusively by the carrier, or by it jointly with another person or persons, and at all boarding locations being used by the carrier.
Link to AA Conditions of Carriage, "Oversales"
In the European Union, EC261/2004 governs denied boarding compensation.
Link to EC261 / EC 261/2004 complaints and AA (master thread)
On American Airlines, you are sometimes ineligible for IDB as allowed by the USDOT:
If a flight is oversold (more passengers hold confirmed reservations than there are seats available), no one may be denied boarding against his or her will until airline personnel first ask for volunteers who will give up their reservation willingly, in exchange for compensation of the airline’s choosing. If there are not enough volunteers, other passengers may be denied boarding involuntarily in accordance with the following boarding priority of American. In such events, American will usually deny boarding based upon check-in time, but we may also consider factors such as severe hardships, fare paid, and status within the AAdvantage® program.
If you are denied boarding involuntarily, you are entitled to a payment of
‘‘denied boarding compensation’’ from the airline unless:
- You have not fully complied with the airline’s ticketing, check-in and reconfirmation requirements, or you are not acceptable for transportation under the airline’s usual rules and practices; or
- You are denied boarding because the flight is canceled; or
You are denied boarding because a smaller capacity aircraft was substituted for safety or operational reasons; or
- On a flight operated with an aircraft having 60 or fewer seats, you are denied boarding due to safety-related weight/balance restrictions that limit payload; or
- You are offered accommodations in a section of the aircraft other than specified in your ticket, at no extra charge (a passenger seated in a section for which a lower fare is charged must be given an appropriate refund); or
- The airline is able to place you on another flight or flights that are planned to reach your next stopover or final destination within one hour of the planned arrival time of your original flight.[/code]
The previous thread is http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ameri...solidated.html
Passengers involuntarily denied boarding on AA are denied usually after calls for volunteers to accept vouchers (and occasionally variable other benefits), usually beginning at $200 or $300 but possibly going significantly higher, depending on passenger response. See more below, including AA Conditions of Carriage.
See IDB / Involuntarily Denied Boarding on AA & Compensation (master thread) for INVOLUNTARILY denied boarding.
Link to US Dept. of Transportation Aviation Consumer Protection Division's "Fly-Rights - A Consumer Guide to Air Travel" section on Overbooking
"IDB" (involuntarily denied boarding) compensation is governed in the USA by "14 CFR 250.5 - Amount of denied boarding compensation for passengers denied boarding involuntarily".
Link to CFR §250.5; as well:
14 CFR § 250.2b Carriers to request volunteers for denied boarding.
(a) In the event of an oversold flight, every carrier shall request volunteers for denied boarding before using any other boarding priority. A “volunteer” is a person who responds to the carrier's request for volunteers and who willingly accepts the carriers' offer of compensation, in any amount, in exchange for relinquishing the confirmed reserved space. Any other passenger denied boarding is considered for purposes of this part to have been denied boarding involuntarily, even if that passenger accepts the denied boarding compensation.
(b) Every carrier shall advise each passenger solicited to volunteer for denied boarding, no later than the time the carrier solicits that passenger to volunteer, whether he or she is in danger of being involuntarily denied boarding and, if so, the compensation the carrier is obligated to pay if the passenger is involuntarily denied boarding. If an insufficient number of volunteers come forward, the carrier may deny boarding to other passengers in accordance with its boarding priority rules.
14 CFR § 250.9 Written explanation of denied boarding compensation and boarding priorities, and verbal notification of denied boarding compensation.
(a) Every carrier shall furnish passengers who are denied boarding involuntarily from flights on which they hold confirmed reserved space immediately after the denied boarding occurs, a written statement explaining the terms, conditions, and limitations of denied boarding compensation, and describing the carriers' boarding priority rules and criteria. The carrier shall also furnish the statement to any person upon request at all airport ticket selling positions which are in the charge of a person employed exclusively by the carrier, or by it jointly with another person or persons, and at all boarding locations being used by the carrier.
Link to AA Conditions of Carriage, "Oversales"
In the European Union, EC261/2004 governs denied boarding compensation.
Link to EC261 / EC 261/2004 complaints and AA (master thread)
On American Airlines, you are sometimes ineligible for IDB as allowed by the USDOT:
If a flight is oversold (more passengers hold confirmed reservations than there are seats available), no one may be denied boarding against his or her will until airline personnel first ask for volunteers who will give up their reservation willingly, in exchange for compensation of the airline’s choosing. If there are not enough volunteers, other passengers may be denied boarding involuntarily in accordance with the following boarding priority of American. In such events, American will usually deny boarding based upon check-in time, but we may also consider factors such as severe hardships, fare paid, and status within the AAdvantage® program.
If you are denied boarding involuntarily, you are entitled to a payment of
‘‘denied boarding compensation’’ from the airline unless:
- You have not fully complied with the airline’s ticketing, check-in and reconfirmation requirements, or you are not acceptable for transportation under the airline’s usual rules and practices; or
- You are denied boarding because the flight is canceled; or
You are denied boarding because a smaller capacity aircraft was substituted for safety or operational reasons; or
- On a flight operated with an aircraft having 60 or fewer seats, you are denied boarding due to safety-related weight/balance restrictions that limit payload; or
- You are offered accommodations in a section of the aircraft other than specified in your ticket, at no extra charge (a passenger seated in a section for which a lower fare is charged must be given an appropriate refund); or
- The airline is able to place you on another flight or flights that are planned to reach your next stopover or final destination within one hour of the planned arrival time of your original flight.[/code]
The previous thread is http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ameri...solidated.html
AA Bump Rates; compensation for VDB / Voluntary Denied Boarding (master thread)
#541
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: DTW/MBS
Programs: UA 1K, HHonors Diamond, Hyatt Globalist, Formerly Starbucks Gold
Posts: 3,525
But if you sign the voucher (regardless of how you were coerced into signing it), you have relinquished your rights to additional compensation. It is going to be very difficult to dispute that. As I always advise, do not sign something unless you know exactly what you are agreeing to. Without signing the VDB document in this case, it would be IDB... period. I think legally, this is quite simple and there is no real grey area. I believe AA should still investigate the circumstances and it would be in their interests to provide a good-will gesture to this pax to prevent additional negative PR.
*Of course in extreme situations, which this was not.
#542
Join Date: May 2009
Location: SMF
Programs: AA EXP
Posts: 77
Thank you all for your replies and your input on this. I was ready to let it go but it seems I should further pursue it. I am wondering if I should write to AA using their website form or if I should send an actual letter in the mail. I also remember the first name of the person who told me that there is an issue with my ticket but I think he was not even manning that gate. I assumed that he was asked by the GA to go find me and he came onboard looking for me with a post-it in his hand. I do feel bad if he faces any disciplinary action TBH...
In any case I'll put together a letter with just facts and get it ready. Please let me know which is the most appropriate means of communicating this to AA.
Thanks again!
In any case I'll put together a letter with just facts and get it ready. Please let me know which is the most appropriate means of communicating this to AA.
Thanks again!
#543
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: LBB
Programs: UA 1K 1MM ★G | Marriott LTT | Hilton ♦ | Hertz PC | Global Entry TSA Pre ✓
Posts: 2,820
Thank you all for your replies and your input on this. I was ready to let it go but it seems I should further pursue it. I am wondering if I should write to AA using their website form or if I should send an actual letter in the mail. I also remember the first name of the person who told me that there is an issue with my ticket but I think he was not even manning that gate. I assumed that he was asked by the GA to go find me and he came onboard looking for me with a post-it in his hand. I do feel bad if he faces any disciplinary action TBH...
In any case I'll put together a letter with just facts and get it ready. Please let me know which is the most appropriate means of communicating this to AA.
Thanks again!
In any case I'll put together a letter with just facts and get it ready. Please let me know which is the most appropriate means of communicating this to AA.
Thanks again!
#544
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 3,698
No, that's not true. If you didn't have the option to remain on the plane, the airline IDBed you and owes you IDB compensation. The airline can't enforce an agreement that is contrary to the law.
#545
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Global
Posts: 5,998
Simply not true. That is only a policy by some airlines. They can remove anyone for any reason. If IVDB, compensation is spelled out.
#546
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: LBB
Programs: UA 1K 1MM ★G | Marriott LTT | Hilton ♦ | Hertz PC | Global Entry TSA Pre ✓
Posts: 2,820
All contracts require a "meeting of the minds". OP never agreed to the terms being offered, After being lied to on the plane, and arguably mislead by the ground crew, I would think one could make a strong argument that there was no agreement. Being lied to by the airline (fake 'problem with your ticket') probably chips away at their credibility in this situation.
Simply not true. That is only a policy by some airlines. They can remove anyone for any reason. If IVDB, compensation is spelled out.
Simply not true. That is only a policy by some airlines. They can remove anyone for any reason. If IVDB, compensation is spelled out.
I believe the right course of action is a straight-forward, unemotional presentation of the facts of the situation to the airline in hopes of an additional good-will gesture.
Like I have reiterated several times already, signing that document ends any possibility of an IDB.... regardless of the situation that led to it.
#547
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: LBB
Programs: UA 1K 1MM ★G | Marriott LTT | Hilton ♦ | Hertz PC | Global Entry TSA Pre ✓
Posts: 2,820
Emotionally, I agree with you, but practically, based on the input from the OP, I cannot agree. The OP signed the VDB document and took the compensation, so practically, the situation was resolved by the airline without IDB compensation. All the OP had to do was disagree and not sign the document, and then file a complaint with DoT, and the airline would have been forced to pay IDB compensation.
#548
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: LBB
Programs: UA 1K 1MM ★G | Marriott LTT | Hilton ♦ | Hertz PC | Global Entry TSA Pre ✓
Posts: 2,820
I see where you are coming from but I am wondering if signing that VDB voucher relinquishes all future claims. Also, I told the gate agent that you never told me what my options are before you gave away my seat. She was pretty aggressive and said "You never asked!" I was like I want to make sure that I get home before noon tomorrow and then she worked out an itinerary for me which would work that (regardless if I got stuck in DCA for the whole day due to the delay). In any case, this left a sour taste in my mouth as I was pulled out of the plane and I was told that "You should go and talk to customer service since there is a problem with your ticket". In the past, when they needed my seat after boarding, they come in and say "It seems we will need your seat, are you still interested?"
Thinking now if I should write to AA as I've complained a few times lately due to their constant mess ups and I don't want to get blacklisted!
Thinking now if I should write to AA as I've complained a few times lately due to their constant mess ups and I don't want to get blacklisted!
#549
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Global
Posts: 5,998
I disagree 100%. The mistake was made in signing the VDB document... PERIOD. This signature is tangible proof that the agreement occurred. There is no legal recourse with that in hand. Right now, it is one person's word against another... and a signed document relinquishing responsibility in exchange for compensation. This simply cannot be overturned into an IDB, and personally, I think it would be silly and a waste of time to pursue as such.
I believe the right course of action is a straight-forward, unemotional presentation of the facts of the situation to the airline in hopes of an additional good-will gesture.
Like I have reiterated several times already, signing that document ends any possibility of an IDB.... regardless of the situation that led to it.
I believe the right course of action is a straight-forward, unemotional presentation of the facts of the situation to the airline in hopes of an additional good-will gesture.
Like I have reiterated several times already, signing that document ends any possibility of an IDB.... regardless of the situation that led to it.
Further, airlines are required by law to explain your rights when you are IVDB. I am guessing they did not do that, but do not know. (I don't think you do either.) Of course, the airline is going to argue OP was not IVDB. Up to the powers that be to decide that. If they rule OP was IVDB, and if the airline did indeed not follow the law, the agreement with the airline would be invalid and OP would be entitled to IVDB. (And yes, there are a lot of 'if's' in that statement.)
However, I do agree with you, OP's simplest path is to follow-up with AA and explain the situation. My guess is they will offer up something. Best to probably take it and move on.
#550
Join Date: May 2009
Location: SMF
Programs: AA EXP
Posts: 77
@ngls ... did you sign the document for the compensation? After re-reading your posts, this was not clear. If not, I will retract some of my previous messages and advise you to email AA asking for IDB compensation. Based on what I read, I have made the inference that you accepted the $570 in AA travel credit..... which one if true?
So in a nutshell, I did sign the VDB document so I am not sure if there is anything that can be done at this point.
#551
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: LBB
Programs: UA 1K 1MM ★G | Marriott LTT | Hilton ♦ | Hertz PC | Global Entry TSA Pre ✓
Posts: 2,820
Coerusion to sign an agreement under false pretenses would certainly invalidate any agreement. Safe to say 'there is a problem with your ticket' was false pretenses. At that point, OP was removed from the plane, not given any options to get home and it could be easily argued he signed the agreement under duress and false pretenses. Also grounds for declaring the agreement invalid.
Further, airlines are required by law to explain your rights when you are IVDB. I am guessing they did not do that, but do not know. (I don't think you do either.) Of course, the airline is going to argue OP was not IVDB. Up to the powers that be to decide that. If they rule OP was IVDB, and if the airline did indeed not follow the law, the agreement with the airline would be invalid and OP would be entitled to IVDB. (And yes, there are a lot of 'if's' in that statement.)
However, I do agree with you, OP's simplest path is to follow-up with AA and explain the situation. My guess is they will offer up something. Best to probably take it and move on.
Further, airlines are required by law to explain your rights when you are IVDB. I am guessing they did not do that, but do not know. (I don't think you do either.) Of course, the airline is going to argue OP was not IVDB. Up to the powers that be to decide that. If they rule OP was IVDB, and if the airline did indeed not follow the law, the agreement with the airline would be invalid and OP would be entitled to IVDB. (And yes, there are a lot of 'if's' in that statement.)
However, I do agree with you, OP's simplest path is to follow-up with AA and explain the situation. My guess is they will offer up something. Best to probably take it and move on.
Anyway, hopefully this is a lesson to all those out there (speaking from my experiences of VDB negotiation probably 60-70 times over the years).... do NOT sign a VDB form unless you are 100% satisfied with your compensation and your protection.....
Another note to the OP @ngls ... I would certainly complain about the mx cancellation on your protection flight as well... you are probably due a good-will gesture for that mess-up as well.
#552
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: JFK, DCA, BUR, YVR
Programs: AC, AS, BA, DL, HH (D), MR (T/LTP), UA (*S), UScAAre (PLT/1,87MM), WN
Posts: 5,207
But if you sign the voucher (regardless of how you were coerced into signing it), you have relinquished your rights to additional compensation. It is going to be very difficult to dispute that. As I always advise, do not sign something unless you know exactly what you are agreeing to. Without signing the VDB document in this case, it would be IDB... period. I think legally, this is quite simple and there is no real grey area. I believe AA should still investigate the circumstances and it would be in their interests to provide a good-will gesture to this pax to prevent additional negative PR.
#553
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 3,698
+1, the form you sign when you volunteer to be denied boarding is a waiver excluding the airline from any claims arising for your disembarkment. This protects them from that DOT rule. One could argue that there was coercion, but that's a pretty steep hill to climb in this instance since the OP was interested in the VDB before being denied and asked to board. I personally think they will offer some sort of gesture of goodwill (miles). There really isn't anything forcing AA to "do the right thing" otherwise.
To be reported as a volunteer on Form 251, the passenger must be given the option to board the flight. When people are bumped involuntarily, offering compensation does not qualify them to be classified as volunteers on Form 251
#554
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: JFK, DCA, BUR, YVR
Programs: AC, AS, BA, DL, HH (D), MR (T/LTP), UA (*S), UScAAre (PLT/1,87MM), WN
Posts: 5,207
Sorry I'm late coming back to this, but once again the DOT is 100% clear that the airline can't modify the situation to be VDB after the fact if you weren't given a choice to stay on the plane. Since people seem to be asserting "no, signing the VDB form makes it VDB no matter what", I'll just point you at the DOT's explicit guidance on this[PDF], notably:
Further, if someone is involuntarily denied boarding, the airline is allowed to offer a voucher but only if they first disclose that you would have been eligible for cash compensation, so the very fact that the only thing they offered was a violation of the IDB rules. The fact that AA tricked ngls into signing a form does not mean they get to ignore the DOT's very clear rules on the handling of denied boarding, and the DOT has taken airlines to task on multiple occasions for attempting to recategorize IDB events into VDB like this.
Further, if someone is involuntarily denied boarding, the airline is allowed to offer a voucher but only if they first disclose that you would have been eligible for cash compensation, so the very fact that the only thing they offered was a violation of the IDB rules. The fact that AA tricked ngls into signing a form does not mean they get to ignore the DOT's very clear rules on the handling of denied boarding, and the DOT has taken airlines to task on multiple occasions for attempting to recategorize IDB events into VDB like this.
#555
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 3,698
I'd highly encourage ngls to file a complaint with the DOT if AA doesn't provide something like IDB compensation. You can't sign a form to release AA from its obligations under the law.