AA award flight cancelled due to schedule change
#76
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: WAS
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Dazza's complaint will be publicly-docketed on regulations.gov, as all formal DOT complaints are (after processing and review by DOT administrative staff). Dave, I expect that you'll enjoy reading that when it becomes available -- and it sounds like it may answer some of your questions.
#77
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Agree.
AA and BA (and others) are running an antitrust-exempt joint operation over the atlantic that was approved based on their claims that it would be "metal neutral" (their wording). Their asking for a "tax" for an involuntary change of flights within the "metral neutral" alliance is a violation of what they said they would do if the DOT approved their joint business. If AA wants to modify the terms of what it promised the DOT it would do under the JBA, then it should reapply for the antitrust exemption.
AA and BA (and others) are running an antitrust-exempt joint operation over the atlantic that was approved based on their claims that it would be "metal neutral" (their wording). Their asking for a "tax" for an involuntary change of flights within the "metral neutral" alliance is a violation of what they said they would do if the DOT approved their joint business. If AA wants to modify the terms of what it promised the DOT it would do under the JBA, then it should reapply for the antitrust exemption.
AA provided an involuntary rerouting onto AA flights. The OP wants to voluntarily change to the BA flights
If AA had just rebooked the OP on BA, I would def agree that there would be no grounds to charge the surcharges
#78
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Bellevue, WA - AA EXP 3MM
Posts: 2,756
Notably, in DOT briefing, AA argued that "Having always been told of the total purchase price before the time of sale, [a passenger] cannot assert he was ever deceived by American in purchasing revenue or award transportation." (That's from AA's April 19, 2013 Answeron pages 8-9.) Dave, do you agree with AA's argument?
#79
Join Date: May 2006
Location: BOS
Programs: AA MM Gold, HH Gold, SPG Gold, DL Gold
Posts: 74
The big thing I see is that the person did not pay the additional sum based on this information ( and still has not paid the extra ) nor is now unaware that it is a surcharge
Yes, I agree that it is a breach of regulation in what the agent did
I do not agree that this then gives the passenger now the right to make the change without paying it
If the passenger had paid the surcharge based on it being called a tax and was now complaining to DOT to get the misrepresented sum refunded, that would be quite different surely
Yes, I agree that it is a breach of regulation in what the agent did
I do not agree that this then gives the passenger now the right to make the change without paying it
If the passenger had paid the surcharge based on it being called a tax and was now complaining to DOT to get the misrepresented sum refunded, that would be quite different surely
If I call back right this minute and ask what the current status of my ticket is I strongly suspect I will be told that there are additional taxes to be paid if I want to travel on the BA flight that my parents were ticketed on.
#80
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Bellevue, WA - AA EXP 3MM
Posts: 2,756
Dazza's post this morning indicates that he just filed his DOT complaint today. Usually DOT staff take 1-2 business days to process and post a newly-filed complaint.
#81
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Bellevue, WA - AA EXP 3MM
Posts: 2,756
I disagree with your suggestion that AA was free to propose a single option (10+ hours different from what Dazza had booked, ticketed, and confirmed!) and was free to withhold another option much closer to Dazza's original itinerary. Each of the above-listed authorities is broadly on point.
Dave, in your view, when AA withdrew from (say) DEL, was AA within its rights to require a passenger to choose between either 1) cancellation of a passenger's ticketed confirmed AAdvantage redemption, or 2) payment of additional surcharges associated with the BA segment LHR-DEL?
Here too, I claim that the above-listed authorities disallow AA from requiring additional payment from passengers in this circumstance. So far as I know, no one filed a formal DOT complaint on this subject, and when I raised this AA argued that I didn't have standing to present problems I did not suffer personaly. So I think we don't know DOT's view.
#82
Join Date: May 2006
Location: BOS
Programs: AA MM Gold, HH Gold, SPG Gold, DL Gold
Posts: 74
AA said that their joint venture would allow metal neutrality for award flights, which by my reckoning should imply a like for like exchange on either carriers metal!
#83
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Dave, in your view, when AA withdrew from (say) DEL, was AA within its rights to require a passenger to choose between either 1) cancellation of a passenger's ticketed confirmed AAdvantage redemption, or 2) payment of additional surcharges associated with the BA segment LHR-DEL?
Same with DEL , if a passenger was booked on the flight, then yes, AA should rebook the passenger. If the passenger prefers another routing, that wouldn't make AA obligated to provide it without taxes/charges being paid
Originally Posted by dazza189
Surely it's involuntary if it's not like for like? Forcing an overnight in ORD where I am responsible for any hotel charges?
#84
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What is the legal definition of "metal neutrality"? Surely there must be one given that the AA detractors so love to fling that term about. I'm not asking for your pet definition of what it means, by the way.
#85
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Deleted
Last edited by hillrider; Mar 3, 2014 at 9:26 am Reason: My original response veered this thread further off-topic (thanks rjlon!)
#86
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Sorry, that doesn't answer my question. Surely you have a definition readily available.
#87
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Bellevue, WA - AA EXP 3MM
Posts: 2,756
You're proposing a particular vision of how schedule changes could work: Carrier offers a flight, cancels it (or changes schedule significantly), then carrier picks exactly one option which customer must accept (or else receive an involuntary refund of the entire amount paid). That's an interesting approach, and I guess some airlines might try that and some regulators might allow that. But that's not the approach AA has chosen. AA's schedule change page says passengers who have a 91 minute or greater schedule change "may select an alternate flight on a oneworld AA*, if original inventory is not available may book next lowest available inventory, same cabin, up to and including B inventory." Allowing that T (award coach) is not available on the AA* flight BOS-LHR, this text indicates that Dazza should be permitted to book in the lowest available bucket on the AA*(BA) BOS-LHR service.
Having made this promise, in writing, on a public web page available to the entire Internet and of course predictably easily found using Google, shouldn't AA be bound by this promise? On what theory does AA get to make this promise, but then disavow this promise when a passenger seeks to avail himself of this provision?
I spoke with passengers who told me AA offered only routings on partners that require fuel surcharges, and AA offered no routings that did not entail a fuel surcharge. Such passengers were unable to reach their ticketed confirmed destination unless they provided additional payment to AA.
#88
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Bellevue, WA - AA EXP 3MM
Posts: 2,756
So far as I know, the document does not offer an affirmative definition of the term. Browsing through it, I was most struck by the statement of (supposed) benefit of metal neutrality on document page 11 (PDF page 17) (emphasis added):
Antitrust immunity alone does not ensure that an alliance will be effective, as each carrier still has an economic incentive to maximize its own revenue. Within oneworld, this is particularly true with regard to American’s relationships with British Airways and Iberia (less so with regard to Finnair and Royal Jordanian because American does not fly to Helsinki or Amman). It is only the closer cooperation through a joint venture based on metal neutrality – an indifference as to which airline actually carries the customer – that will maximize the consumer benefits that immunized alliances make possible. This is because metal neutrality removes each carrier’s incentive to act opportunistically in ways that inure to the short-term financial benefit of one carrier, but which reduce the efficiency and consumer benefits delivered by the alliance.
#89
Join Date: May 2006
Location: BOS
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I also thought that the EU rules protected any passenger flying into or out of Europe regardless of the nationality of the carrier (happy to expose my ignorance on that particular rule)
#90
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Yes I have. On the date in question there is literally no way to achieve such a routing. The ONLY way to go from BOS-LHR in the same day, on that particular day is on the BA flight. They no longer offer the AA metal flights from BOS-LHR and they cancelled the only possible routing through any other hub that they serve after agreeing to do so.
AA is covered by regulation from EU-USA , since all carriers are covered there
For USA-EU, only community carriers ( basically EU carriers ) are covered by regulation
If you were booked on a BA flight and that flight was impacted, then you would have been covered?