Wow AAgent gets ANGRY when you call YQ a fuel surcharge
Jan 18, 2011, 2:08 pm
#76
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: RBKC
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Posts: 3,851
Jan 18, 2011, 2:17 pm
#77
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NYC
Programs: AA ex-Plat
Posts: 425
So where's the American Airlines official response to this thread? They certainly have to realize that they've generated tremendous amounts of ill-will as a result of the policy and the fee presentation to their Elite Members.'
I would really wish they would weigh-in on these types of conversations.
Wishful thinking I suppose.
I would really wish they would weigh-in on these types of conversations.
Wishful thinking I suppose.
what the former see from the get-go as a huge program devaluation and major nuissance, the latter will likely only see a huge price difference when using BA for an award ticket to london or somewhere in europe, vs using IB for the same ticket because it resulted in a "cheaper" out-of-pocket award ticket -- or never see it at all because they don't know they can even redeem AA miles on other carriers. and let's face it, most people who are on FT are more savvy than joe traveler, whether it be for earning or burning miles.
while someone calling up AA to redeem miles may complain about out-of-pocket costs for a "free" ticket, they don't likely know what all those extra charges or taxes are for -- they just accept that if they want to go A to B via C on BA it's $XX dollars, but if they make a carrier change to go A to B via D on IB, then it cuts the out-of-pocket to 25% of the cost of taking BA.
AA may have seen this as an issue that didn't really need to be addressed since the number of people it would upset was so small -- i'm just guessing here, but i would say the percentage of elites vs. regular AA fliers is small, and the percentage of elites on FT vs. regular AA filers is even smaller.
Jan 18, 2011, 2:21 pm
#78
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NYC
Programs: AA ex-Plat
Posts: 425
me either -- but it would certainly be easier to enter data points for a few certain routes and not have to touch them for a year vs. updating a few datapoints daily or weekly or with more frequency.
does anyone with backend experience know how YQs are entered into the database? or, for example, in order to update a YQ for a certain fare/route -- how that process works?
does anyone with backend experience know how YQs are entered into the database? or, for example, in order to update a YQ for a certain fare/route -- how that process works?
Jan 18, 2011, 2:27 pm
#79
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: LAX
Programs: AA EXP 1.5MM, Asiana Club Silver, KE Morning Calm, Hyatt Platinum, Amtrak Select
Posts: 7,161
right, but YQ could be kept constant for say one fiscal year by any particular airline that hedges their fuel contracts (or for the length of the contract, whether shorter or longer than a fiscal year). this solves the problem of trying to tie the YQ to a contantly moving market rate.
Maybe BA doesn't hedge their fuels. In either case AA has no say on how BA runs its business. If BA says we're slapping YQs on all awards even for partners and if you don't like it sucks to be you, then AA has no other choice but to agree or otherwise lose a valuable partner.
So AA needs to make a decision: suck up the cost out of their own pocket or to pass on the YQ charge to the prospective AAdvantage member trying to claim awards on BA.
AA chose the latter so there's a certain degree of responsibility on AA for making this decision, which is to come more clean with the YQ charges slapped on by BA. Hiding the YQ charge within the "tax & other fees" and having CSRs claim it as "tax" is highly suspect which can lead to expensive litigation and bad PR investigations.
Moreso true for the average joe traveler who has been saving up his/her AA miles for a "free ticket" to Europe find out with a sticker shock that they now have to pay hundreds of dollars in "taxes." AA could also be more open about it's responsibility by clearly noting a disclaimer onto the award page.
Right now there's not much clarity on this on either it's Partner Awards page or on AA's BA page. A simple disclaimer on that page under "Using AAdvantage Miles" that says "AAdvantage members redeeming award tickets on BA are subject to additional airport taxes and fuel surcharges" could also save them a lot of trouble. Same with any other potential AA partner that decides to levy fuel charges...my bet being on JAL.
Any attorney here willing to offer some insight on this matter? I'm sure AA who reads this board would love to hear/read on an attorney's take on this.
Last edited by kebosabi; Jan 18, 2011 at 2:51 pm
Jan 18, 2011, 3:23 pm
#80
Join Date: Jan 2007
Programs: PC Pl, UA 1K, CC Gl
Posts: 2,235
I have disputed it after the flights and they did not touch my skypesos. If they would feel they are right they should reply to Amex when I disputed it. Silence, in this case
, is a sign of weakness of their position to charge me $300 "taxes" per ticket when their own website shows $76.
Jan 18, 2011, 3:40 pm
#81
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NYC
Programs: AA ex-Plat
Posts: 425
Maybe BA doesn't hedge their fuels. In either case AA has no say on how BA runs its business. If BA says we're slapping YQs on all awards even for partners and if you don't like it sucks to be you, then AA has no other choice but to agree or otherwise lose a valuable partner.
So AA needs to make a decision: suck up the cost out of their own pocket or to pass on the YQ charge to the prospective AAdvantage member trying to claim awards on BA.
AA chose the latter so there's a certain degree of responsibility on AA for making this decision, which is to come more clean with the YQ charges slapped on by BA. Hiding the YQ charge within the "tax & other fees" and having CSRs claim it as "tax" is highly suspect which can lead to expensive litigation and bad PR investigations.
Moreso true for the average joe traveler who has been saving up his/her AA miles for a "free ticket" to Europe find out with a sticker shock that they now have to pay hundreds of dollars in "taxes." AA could also be more open about it's responsibility by clearly noting a disclaimer onto the award page.
So AA needs to make a decision: suck up the cost out of their own pocket or to pass on the YQ charge to the prospective AAdvantage member trying to claim awards on BA.
AA chose the latter so there's a certain degree of responsibility on AA for making this decision, which is to come more clean with the YQ charges slapped on by BA. Hiding the YQ charge within the "tax & other fees" and having CSRs claim it as "tax" is highly suspect which can lead to expensive litigation and bad PR investigations.
Moreso true for the average joe traveler who has been saving up his/her AA miles for a "free ticket" to Europe find out with a sticker shock that they now have to pay hundreds of dollars in "taxes." AA could also be more open about it's responsibility by clearly noting a disclaimer onto the award page.
but getting back to the part about AA having no say in how BA runs their business ... i think the JBV indicates that the partners now have more of a say. if BA said that they needed the charge to help them remain profitable (or lose less money), AA can then choose whether to pass that along or not, as well as implementing a reciprocal charge for BA members redeeming on AA. as much as i would like AA to suck up the cost for AA members redeeming on BA, i doubt my elite status with AA would be very useful to me in a few years or less.
i doubt that AA would have invented this fee out of thin air (as much as they would like extra revenue streams) without BA having first said that it was implementing the charge to begin with. it may not be BA directing AA's business, but it certainly influenced AA to start charging/pass along this fee.
while i'm not saying that AA's placement of the fee/tax/surcharge was the correct one or even legal, i have no doubt their legal department reviewed where it was put and any potential future legal costs for putting it where they did -- sort of like car companies weighing paying out claims on a car's faulty brakes, or doing a recall to fix it -- whichever one results in a smaller bill is what wins if the difference is significant (including negative press/goodwill of the company, etc.).
Jan 18, 2011, 3:54 pm
#82
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,702
Time to send a letter to AA officially asking if this is a tax and copy DOT.
If nothing else, just to stir things in never never land
If nothing else, just to stir things in never never land
Jan 18, 2011, 4:09 pm
#83
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Posts: 7,161
The US card companies putting themselves in a dead end as more Americans complaining about not being able to use their credit cards abroad as everyone else has switched to EMV chip & PIN systems for example. All these years they've resisted the change to move to EMV citing costs, now they're all scrambling like ducks to do so.
Last edited by kebosabi; Jan 18, 2011 at 4:21 pm
Jan 18, 2011, 4:17 pm
#84
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Omnibus response from a recent JD grad (and a thorn in the side of Corporate America)
The complainant -
The respondant (read: my two cents) -
Of the $500,-+ assessed, would it be fair to say that $250,- was fare difference and the other $250,- was YQ? I find it hard to believe that a TCON flight on BA would have a $500,- YQ unless you were flying BA to some other far off destination like Israel. Even then, I don't think they charge double YQ.
I'll admit that YQ sucks, but there is one way to avoid YQ: Don't fly BA! IMHO, any airline that charges $250,- YQ on top of the fare is not worthy of my business. Their excessive YQ on paid and award tickets was the main reason I cashed out my BAEC account. I believe if enough people stopped flying BA for the same reason, then they would be forced to drop YQ or go bankrupt. Besides, BA isn't the picture of financial health today.
In re wiretapping -
+1
+1
I realise that interstate calling is an 1§8 matter (thus FCC), but who cares?
-1
+5 (You win)
In re YQ vs XT -
+ 2, well said!
I am pretty sure I was charged YQ on an award ticket that I made through AA. It was for a r/t BA flights BRU > LHR. I can ask them how much of my "taxes and fees" were YQ, but I would guess that $75,- or $100,- of the $145,40 I paid was in fact YQ.
In re solutions -
I'm
. Isn't there an EU reg that already prevents the airlines from tacking on separate charges not included in the price of the ticket, and that these charges must be clearly stated at the time of booking? If I were the OP, I'd complain to the Air Transport Users Council (auc.uk.org), but I am not sure if they will accept a complaint from non-UK citizens/residents.
I filed a complaint against BA with the NYS Consumer Protection Board for another matter, and they forwarded it to the FAA, and then the complaint was never heard from again. It is pretty hard to persist against BA. The best option is to take them to civil court if the offence is that egregious.
+5, "Good answer. I like the way you think. I'm gonna be watching you."
I was just on with an AA international award agent. I had to move a date (on a BA flight) which resulted in ~ $500 in extra charges. I had to complain and she kept saying "it is taxes we didn't charge before, now we have to charge these taxes".
I'd try to explain these aren't taxes, they are fuel surcharges and she'd get very very mad. She ranted about how these don't result in any extra income to American Airlines.... I again tried to correct her but wow she got MAD.
In business it is usually illegal to call something a "tax" when it is not a genuine tax. Isn't there a lawyer on this board who is looking for some extra work?
Wouldn't take more than a couple recorded phone calls to make your case
I'd try to explain these aren't taxes, they are fuel surcharges and she'd get very very mad. She ranted about how these don't result in any extra income to American Airlines.... I again tried to correct her but wow she got MAD.
In business it is usually illegal to call something a "tax" when it is not a genuine tax. Isn't there a lawyer on this board who is looking for some extra work?
Wouldn't take more than a couple recorded phone calls to make your case
Of the $500,-+ assessed, would it be fair to say that $250,- was fare difference and the other $250,- was YQ? I find it hard to believe that a TCON flight on BA would have a $500,- YQ unless you were flying BA to some other far off destination like Israel. Even then, I don't think they charge double YQ.
I'll admit that YQ sucks, but there is one way to avoid YQ: Don't fly BA! IMHO, any airline that charges $250,- YQ on top of the fare is not worthy of my business. Their excessive YQ on paid and award tickets was the main reason I cashed out my BAEC account. I believe if enough people stopped flying BA for the same reason, then they would be forced to drop YQ or go bankrupt. Besides, BA isn't the picture of financial health today.
In re wiretapping -
Not only that, since AAs' call prompt advises that your call may be recorded you are explicitly allowed to tape your conversation with the agent.
* AA customers are advised on our call prompt that their call may be recorded for quality assurance.
Should a customer request to tape-record your conversation, you must allow them to do so.
* AA customers are advised on our call prompt that their call may be recorded for quality assurance.
Should a customer request to tape-record your conversation, you must allow them to do so.
A little OT - and I sure do not claim to be an expert here - but where I live, it is also single-party consent - as long as both parties are within the jurisdiction of the state law enabling this - that is within my home state. Calls where one of the parties is outside of my state are governed, as I understand it, by the FCC, which I believe still requires an upfront announcement or a tone-warning signal at proper intervals. That would be true of any interstate call. Just sayin - and could well be proven wrong.
-1
In re YQ vs XT -
Need to fault you here. AA (and BA) are in the wrong here, from a customer's point of view. The idiots in the executive office at both respective carriers do not interface with us 'rift-raft,' therefore in a consumer-oriented culture we have the right and obligation to stand up for ourselves, collectively. While it is NOT okay to abuse or argue with customer-facing agents, the fact is they are the entry point to AA/BA for us.
Look at it objectively from a historical standpoint; Large companies have always listened to customer feedback provided from their own employees (my company does it too). Many companies have rescinded PR and policy 'mistakes' as a result (take UA's CR1 removal and economy TATL BOB disasters as perfect evidence of this). Don't be afraid, speak up [NICELY]!
Look at it objectively from a historical standpoint; Large companies have always listened to customer feedback provided from their own employees (my company does it too). Many companies have rescinded PR and policy 'mistakes' as a result (take UA's CR1 removal and economy TATL BOB disasters as perfect evidence of this). Don't be afraid, speak up [NICELY]!
In re solutions -
I'm
. Isn't there an EU reg that already prevents the airlines from tacking on separate charges not included in the price of the ticket, and that these charges must be clearly stated at the time of booking? If I were the OP, I'd complain to the Air Transport Users Council (auc.uk.org), but I am not sure if they will accept a complaint from non-UK citizens/residents.I bought couple mileage tickets on DL from Europe couple years ago. Online it showed $76 in taxes, but it will not book and gave me an error message. I have called and was told that "taxes" are around $300. I bought the tickets over the phone, but took a pdf of the page with $76 taxes. When my Amex bill arrived I have disputed the charge and mail Amex a printout with $76 taxes. DL did not reply to Amex at all and charges were removed.
Jan 18, 2011, 10:08 pm
#85
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NYC
Programs: AA ex-Plat
Posts: 425
I dunno, you'd be surprised how many companies don't think of something as the thought never crossed their mind.
The US card companies putting themselves in a dead end as more Americans complaining about not being able to use their credit cards abroad as everyone else has switched to EMV chip & PIN systems for example. All these years they've resisted the change to move to EMV citing costs, now they're all scrambling like ducks to do so.
The US card companies putting themselves in a dead end as more Americans complaining about not being able to use their credit cards abroad as everyone else has switched to EMV chip & PIN systems for example. All these years they've resisted the change to move to EMV citing costs, now they're all scrambling like ducks to do so.
Jan 19, 2011, 4:03 pm
#86
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: DFW
Programs: AS, BA, AA
Posts: 3,670
In re solutions -
I'm. Isn't there an EU reg that already prevents the airlines from tacking on separate charges not included in the price of the ticket, and that these charges must be clearly stated at the time of booking? If I were the OP, I'd complain to the Air Transport Users Council (auc.uk.org), but I am not sure if they will accept a complaint from non-UK citizens/residents.
I filed a complaint against BA with the NYS Consumer Protection Board for another matter, and they forwarded it to the FAA, and then the complaint was never heard from again. It is pretty hard to persist against BA. The best option is to take them to civil court if the offence is that egregious.
I'm
. Isn't there an EU reg that already prevents the airlines from tacking on separate charges not included in the price of the ticket, and that these charges must be clearly stated at the time of booking? If I were the OP, I'd complain to the Air Transport Users Council (auc.uk.org), but I am not sure if they will accept a complaint from non-UK citizens/residents.I filed a complaint against BA with the NYS Consumer Protection Board for another matter, and they forwarded it to the FAA, and then the complaint was never heard from again. It is pretty hard to persist against BA. The best option is to take them to civil court if the offence is that egregious.
http://www.travellaw.com/page/dot-fu...vertising-rule
Sounds like you could make it really expensive (to the tune of $27,500 per day) if an air carrier is misrepresenting a Fuel Surcharge as a tax. May not apply specifically to the OP's complaint, since it refers to advertising instead of billing, but... check it out.
Some excerpts:
49 U.S.C. § 41712.
Price advertising.
The Board considers any advertising or solicitation by a direct air carrier, indirect air carrier, or an agent of either, for passenger air transportation, a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground accommodations), or a tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that states a price for such air transportation, tour, or tour component to be an unfair or deceptive practice, unless the price stated is the entire price to be paid by the customer to the air carrier, or agent, for such air transportation, tour, or tour component.
...
While the Department of Transportation requires that the total price to be paid by the consumer must be reflected in the quoted fare, governmentally imposed or approved taxes and fees may be excluded from the quoted fare if proper disclosures are provided. These disclosures must be comprehensive and should give consumers a clear picture of the total cost of the air ticket. Fees which are not imposed by the government (e.g. Fuel Surcharges or Service Fees) must be included in all advertised fares.
Penalties for Violations:
The law provides for a maximum of $27,500 in civil penalties per day while the violation is ongoing. There is a small business exception built into the law to reduce fines, but it has out-of-date requirements that are often exceeded in this modern era. When a violation has been outstanding for weeks or even months, these penalties accumulate and violators are often faced with hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars in potential fines.
...
Over the past year, there has been a crackdown on violations of the Full Fare Advertising rule which has resulted in numerous consent orders against air carriers and their agents. The spike in oil prices in 2008 to just under $150 a barrel caused many carriers and agents to implement fuel surcharges. Many carriers and agents passed along these surcharges to consumers improperly which resulted in a wave of consent orders carrying substantial fines.
Price advertising.
The Board considers any advertising or solicitation by a direct air carrier, indirect air carrier, or an agent of either, for passenger air transportation, a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground accommodations), or a tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that states a price for such air transportation, tour, or tour component to be an unfair or deceptive practice, unless the price stated is the entire price to be paid by the customer to the air carrier, or agent, for such air transportation, tour, or tour component.
...
While the Department of Transportation requires that the total price to be paid by the consumer must be reflected in the quoted fare, governmentally imposed or approved taxes and fees may be excluded from the quoted fare if proper disclosures are provided. These disclosures must be comprehensive and should give consumers a clear picture of the total cost of the air ticket. Fees which are not imposed by the government (e.g. Fuel Surcharges or Service Fees) must be included in all advertised fares.
Penalties for Violations:
The law provides for a maximum of $27,500 in civil penalties per day while the violation is ongoing. There is a small business exception built into the law to reduce fines, but it has out-of-date requirements that are often exceeded in this modern era. When a violation has been outstanding for weeks or even months, these penalties accumulate and violators are often faced with hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars in potential fines.
...
Over the past year, there has been a crackdown on violations of the Full Fare Advertising rule which has resulted in numerous consent orders against air carriers and their agents. The spike in oil prices in 2008 to just under $150 a barrel caused many carriers and agents to implement fuel surcharges. Many carriers and agents passed along these surcharges to consumers improperly which resulted in a wave of consent orders carrying substantial fines.
Jan 19, 2011, 4:20 pm
#87
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: JFK, DCA, BUR, YVR
Programs: AC, AS, BA, DL, HH (D), MR (T/LTP), UA (*S), UScAAre (PLT/1,87MM), WN
Posts: 5,207
Here is an interesting website:
http://www.travellaw.com/page/dot-fu...vertising-rule
Sounds like you could make it really expensive (to the tune of $27,500 per day) if an air carrier is misrepresenting a Fuel Surcharge as a tax. May not apply specifically to the OP's complaint, since it refers to advertising instead of billing, but... check it out.
Some excerpts:
http://www.travellaw.com/page/dot-fu...vertising-rule
Sounds like you could make it really expensive (to the tune of $27,500 per day) if an air carrier is misrepresenting a Fuel Surcharge as a tax. May not apply specifically to the OP's complaint, since it refers to advertising instead of billing, but... check it out.
Some excerpts:
Jan 19, 2011, 5:25 pm
#88
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: DFW
Programs: AS, BA, AA
Posts: 3,670
Nice cite. I am having trouble getting BA to comply with the compensation scheme for cancelled flights, so I'll hammer them on YQ and start a riot! However, filing a complaint with the DOT won't allow the OP to see any comp. A civil fine is something that the government gets back in order to buy expensive plumbing for the Pentagon. I wish our Congress passed rules similar to those enacted within the EU in order to make the airlines more accountable to us.
Jan 19, 2011, 5:56 pm
#89
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: LAX
Programs: AA EXP 1.5MM, Asiana Club Silver, KE Morning Calm, Hyatt Platinum, Amtrak Select
Posts: 7,161
27k per day would be nothing to BA. They can be fined for however long they wish and just pass that fine along to the consumers. I'm sure more than 500 people fly between the US and UK everyday on BA, they can easily divide 27k by 500 and tack on extra $54 to every person and call it a "fee."
Jan 19, 2011, 8:43 pm
#90
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New Orleans (MSY)
Programs: AA EXP, IHG PLT, Hilton Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Amtrak, WN
Posts: 2,617
Don't you mean "AAngry?"