Wow AAgent gets ANGRY when you call YQ a fuel surcharge
Jan 17, 2011, 5:59 pm
#61
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this could be an interesting issue for the FTC or states attorneys general to dig into. Representing this as a tax seems like it could be considered a deceptive trade practice.
DOT might have an opinion as well.
Has anyone filed a complaint with these agencies?
DOT might have an opinion as well.
Has anyone filed a complaint with these agencies?
Jan 17, 2011, 6:16 pm
#62
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To be honest, what you conceptually portray is one of the reasons YQs were created and exploited by airlines. QF and I believe BA have long used them to circumvent the 'commisionable' amount of tickets (which historically has been the base fare only). It is clever, and unfortunately the Australian courts have sided in QF's favor. Kind of along the lines of the US government now wanting it's share of the 'ancillary revenue' stream created by bag fees and such, as they are not subject to taxation in present form.
Jan 17, 2011, 7:29 pm
#63
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Dave
Jan 17, 2011, 8:33 pm
#64
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Ahhhh I was not as up to date on the QF case
One thing I do remember was the way the judge described taxes as opposed to surcharges:
From Travel Weekly:
One thing I do remember was the way the judge described taxes as opposed to surcharges:
From Travel Weekly:
“The fuel surcharge is not a tax, charge or fee imposed by governments, authorities or airport operators,” he ruled.
Last edited by denCSA; Jan 17, 2011 at 8:39 pm
Jan 17, 2011, 9:29 pm
#65
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Another example would be say...a phone bill. It clearly separately lists all the nickle and diming that they ding us at the federal, state, and local level, plus any other optional services and "fees." But at least they break it down instead of lumping it together into one single "taxes & fees." I'm sure very few people would know from the top of their head what percentage of our phone bill go to federal, state and local taxes or whether or not the phone cos are just pocketing all that extra change.
Another problem with calling it a tax: a tax would be the same for every airline on any given itinerary. So when AA tells a customer something is a tax, why bother to comparison shop? But in fact it is an airline-specific charge that varies between different carriers, so it is a deceptive practice. I don't know that this would apply as much to award tickets as it would to AA-issued (paid) tickets on carriers who do use YQ. Do those receipts say the YQ is a tax?
Jan 17, 2011, 9:37 pm
#66
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Jan 18, 2011, 1:30 am
#67
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Jan 18, 2011, 2:14 am
#68
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They may indeed keep the fuel surcharges no matter what, but at least then it will be (more) obvious to everyone (other than just people on FT) that it is just a grab for cash. I think putting anything like that out in the open gives the consumer more bargaining power. That's what I really see as the objective here.
It definitely seems more likely than not that an American court would feel similarly.
Jan 18, 2011, 5:15 am
#69
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on another note, I was working a project for GovTrip which is a travel site that certain gov agencies use to book travel
one of the things I learned was that in order to raise gov't fares between city pairs, they could always add/change the YQ.. so a $200 ow fare between city pair A & B would fluctuate with the fuel surcharge say another $60 would be added as YQ so the fare would now be $260.. evidently this is how the airlines managed their fare increases on fixed city pair prices
Jan 18, 2011, 10:04 am
#70
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The price of oil these days are so volatile and when calculated on a mass scale, the $ amt is so big these days that one can't keep up with the fluctuation in prices that occur at each market day. A 10% fluctuation between $100 and $90 is much larger in $ amt than a 10% difference back when oil used to be $20 to $18.
And whose to say the airlines aren't just taking on say an extra $1 or $2 within the YQ charge to make additional profit instead of just covering the increase in fuel costs?
Last edited by kebosabi; Jan 18, 2011 at 11:36 am
Jan 18, 2011, 10:26 am
#71
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Since I don't run my own business, I have no idea.. the above was a simplified hypothetical.. I realize you had the smiley face but its a good question.. is it?
on another note, I was working a project for GovTrip which is a travel site that certain gov agencies use to book travel
one of the things I learned was that in order to raise gov't fares between city pairs, they could always add/change the YQ.. so a $200 ow fare between city pair A & B would fluctuate with the fuel surcharge say another $60 would be added as YQ so the fare would now be $260.. evidently this is how the airlines managed their fare increases on fixed city pair prices
I know nothing about VA's tax laws, but I have to believe that a state with a sales tax would subject a "fuel surcharge" to that tax. Otherwise, a merchant could sell the item for $1.00, collect a few pennies in sales tax for the state, and then add in a $100.00 non-taxable "fuel surcharge."
Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
on another note, I was working a project for GovTrip which is a travel site that certain gov agencies use to book travel
one of the things I learned was that in order to raise gov't fares between city pairs, they could always add/change the YQ.. so a $200 ow fare between city pair A & B would fluctuate with the fuel surcharge say another $60 would be added as YQ so the fare would now be $260.. evidently this is how the airlines managed their fare increases on fixed city pair prices
Jan 18, 2011, 10:46 am
#72
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So where's the American Airlines official response to this thread? They certainly have to realize that they've generated tremendous amounts of ill-will as a result of the policy and the fee presentation to their Elite Members.'
I would really wish they would weigh-in on these types of conversations.
Wishful thinking I suppose.
I would really wish they would weigh-in on these types of conversations.
Wishful thinking I suppose.
Jan 18, 2011, 11:05 am
#73
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I bought couple mileage tickets on DL from Europe couple years ago. Online it showed $76 in taxes, but it will not book and gave me an error message. I have called and was told that "taxes" are around $300. I bought the tickets over the phone, but took a pdf of the page with $76 taxes. When my Amex bill arrived I have disputed the charge and mail Amex a printout with $76 taxes. DL did not reply to Amex at all and charges were removed.
Jan 18, 2011, 12:46 pm
#74
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Did DL take any retaliatory action as a result of your dispute? i.e. Cancelled your tickets or suspended your SkyPesos account?
Jan 18, 2011, 1:59 pm
#75
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Good point, but I doubt any airline now realistically see oil prices going back down to the point we used to see. And, at what point will we see a decrease in YQ charges? When barrel of oil goes from $100 to $90? Probably not, because in a week it might go back up to $95 again.
The price of oil these days are so volatile and when calculated on a mass scale, the $ amt is so big these days that one can't keep up with the fluctuation in prices that occur at each market day. A 10% fluctuation between $100 and $90 is much larger in $ amt than a 10% difference back when oil used to be $20 to $18.
And whose to say the airlines aren't just taking on say an extra $1 or $2 within the YQ charge to make additional profit instead of just covering the increase in fuel costs?
The price of oil these days are so volatile and when calculated on a mass scale, the $ amt is so big these days that one can't keep up with the fluctuation in prices that occur at each market day. A 10% fluctuation between $100 and $90 is much larger in $ amt than a 10% difference back when oil used to be $20 to $18.
And whose to say the airlines aren't just taking on say an extra $1 or $2 within the YQ charge to make additional profit instead of just covering the increase in fuel costs?
when airlines have to purchase fuel at market rates (e.g. like AA did when it didn't have enough cash to hedge contracts a few years back), then that is when it would become difficult unless they pegged the YQ charge weekly, monthly, quarterly, or annually, except when the market rate varied by XX% up or down, which would be a corporate decision on the change frequency.