OZtrav

Facts: I have a flight from YYZ-BKK via HKG with Cathay (booked using Alaska miles). Cathay reduced the frequency on YYZ-HKG so my flight has been cancelled and the next available flight on CX is 4 days later than my original flight (which does not work for me).

CX's CoC:

2.1 GENERAL 2.1.1 Except as provided in Articles 2.4 and 2.5, these Conditions of Carriage apply to all flights operated by us or on flights on other Carriers for which you have been ticketed with us to the extent that there is no conflict between these Conditions of Carriage and the terms and conditions of other Carriers, and in any case where we have a legal liability to you in relation to your flight.

2.4 OVERRIDING LAW These Conditions of Carriage are applicable unless they are inconsistent with our Tariffs or applicable law in which event such Tariffs or laws shall prevail.

10.2.2 Except as otherwise provided by the Conventions or other law (where applicable), if we cancel your flight, make a significant change to the schedule, no longer fly to your Stopover or final destination or make you miss your Connecting Flight (on which you have a confirmed reservation), we shall, at your option, either: 24 (a) carry you on our next available flight if space is available without additional charge. Where necessary, the validity of your Ticket will also be extended; or (b) re-route you on one of our flights at no additional charge. If the fare, and charges for the revised routing are lower than what you have paid, we shall refund the difference; or (c) or refund your Ticket in accordance with Article 11.2.


Canadian air passenger protection regulations:Cancellation

11 (4) In the case of a cancellation, the carrier must

• (a) provide passengers with the information set out in section 13;
  
• (b) if a passenger is informed of the cancellation less than 12 hours before the departure time that is indicated on their original ticket, provide the standard of treatment set out in section 14; and
  
• (c) provide alternate travel arrangements or a refund, in the manner set out in section 17.
  
  
  Alternate arrangements — within carrier’s control
  
• 17 (1) If paragraph 11(3)(c), (4)(c) or (5)(c) or 12(2)(c), (3)(c) or (4)(c) applies to a carrier, it must provide the following alternate travel arrangements free of charge to ensure that passengers complete their itinerary as soon as feasible:
  
  • (a) in the case of a large carrier,
    
    • (i) a confirmed reservation for the next available flight that is operated by the original carrier, or a carrier with which the original carrier has a commercial agreement, is travelling on any reasonable air route from the airport at which the passenger is located to the destination that is indicated on the passenger’s original ticket and departs within nine hours of the departure time that is indicated on that original ticket,
      
    • (ii) a confirmed reservation for a flight that is operated by any carrier and is travelling on any reasonable air route from the airport at which the passenger is located to the destination that is indicated on the passenger’s original ticket and departs within 48 hours of the departure time that is indicated on that original ticket if the carrier cannot provide a confirmed reservation that complies with subparagraph (i), or
      
    • (iii) transportation to another airport that is within a reasonable distance of the airport at which the passenger is located and a confirmed reservation for a flight that is operated by any carrier and is travelling on any reasonable air route from that other airport to the destination that is indicated on the passenger’s original ticket, if the carrier cannot provide a confirmed reservation that complies with subparagraphs (i) or (ii); and
      
  • (b) in the case of a small carrier, a confirmed reservation for the next available flight that is operated by the original carrier, or a carrier with which the original carrier has a commercial agreement, and is travelling on any reasonable air route from the airport at which the passenger is located to the destination that is indicated on the passenger’s original ticket.
    

Question: Can I be rerouted by another carrier? Based on the many discussions here, CX would either put me on their next available flight or just offer a refund with no other options (which is in line with their CoC).

There are flights by TK and EK that day, and KE the next day. I am hoping AS could at least put me on the KE flights (as it is a partner of Alaska, though I don't see any award availability).

ernestnywang

You will need to contact AS, and this question belongs to the AS forum.

stevendorechester

Both Cathay and AS are jointly responsible under Canadian law. You are legally entitled to be rebooked on the next available flight on either airline, or on any airline if they can' t get you out within nine hours. Cathay is breaking the law by not opening up space on their next flight and so is AS. The only problem is that both airlines will bounce you around until you give up, as unfortunately the CTA has not started issuing $ 25000 dollar fines for this behavior.

Keep in mind the COC is irrelevant here.

One suggestion talking from experience is if you live near an airport served by Cathay is to go to the ticket counter with a copy of the rules and politely remind them that they need to respect the law. I went through this with a friend last week and managed to get him rebooked from an AA award ticket to an Air Canada flight in revenue J to to a schedule change. Showed the agent the law, the agents call her ticketing desk and one hour later my friend was rebooked.

You will most likely get nowhere calling, especially a foreign call center [...] who will not differ from the script and couldn' t care less about Canadian laws. Your only other option is to purchase a ticket and sue them in SCC.

Here's to hoping you get the flights you want and that our government finally get airlines to respect our laws. Most airlines are well aware what they need to do, they have simply decided not to.

sxc

Moving this to the Alaska Airlines forum as it will be Alaska that you will need to work with to fix this.

sxc
Cathay Pacific Moderator

eponymous_coward

“We’ll put you on the very next Alaska flight out of Toronto to Bangkok. Since we serve neither city nor have any plans to, you might be waiting a while.”

(click, dial tone)

Going to be kind of hard to pound the AS counter and wave some laws you printed out at an airport they don’t actually serve, as well. Closest location AS serves would be Detroit DTW. Getting across the border before things open up might be a nuisance.



Call up AS and chat. It doesn’t help that you are originating in a city where they have zero service. Do you have ANY flexibility, or did you make completely inflexible plans during a pandemic whilst relying on an airline (CX) for those plans that has been cancelling service for months on end? Did you not consider this might happen?

AndyKehn

This is always the risk of booking flight on airline using partner's miles. Sure you get a good deal out of it (in this case 50k for CX J) but when it comes to cancellation/service disruption/schedule change, you are on your own. Alaska can't magically force CX or KE to open availability, and since CX no longer flies to YYZ your best bet is to ask them to accommodate you from ORD/JFK/BOS etc and reposition on your own. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Good luck citing these useless laws to anyone who cares to listen.

OZtrav

Too bad no one cares about Canada's useless laws.

CX still flies to YYZ; it does not seem to currently fly to ORD and BOS, though.

OZtrav

Well I originally booked this prior to the pandemic and had to reschedule multiple times already.

And it looks like Thailand and Bangkok are going to be open and I am hoping to finally visit family, so I would really like to take the trip. But losing 4 days in a 2-week trip is difficult to swallow (especially when nearly 2 of those days are spent in the air).

I could have booked KE in the first place when they had availability months ago, but I didn't think CX would reduce frequency from 3x daily to 1x weekly (I expected 4-5x weekly and thought I would be covered). Of course KE now has no availability around the dates I want.

Certainly there is an option to cancel or further defer the trip, but if I wanted to do that, I would not have come here to ask a question.

jrl767

it’s unfortunate — but unsurprising — that OP’s plans/desired travel dates have been (and continue to be) hosed up, but travel has been anything but normal for the past 20 or so months

if I was in this situation, I’d pick an originating city that looks like it will continue to see a reasonable amount of CX service (JFK? LAX? SFO?) and figure out how to position — paid or award, both still probably fully refundable — to that airport

stevendorechester

They do care if the flight leaves from Canada. Exactly a week ago I helped a friend at an airport counter getting AA to rebook him from an award ticket on AA to a full revenue J flight on Air Canada. This was for a flight leaving a week later, not day of IROPs. All by showing the counter agent a copy of the law.

The law will also be less useless when passengers start rebooking themselves and then ( or their travel insurance) suing airlines in Canadian courts for damages they incure.

stevendorechester

I agree here that it might be hard but by making them aware of the law ( as well as the operating carrier) both airlines might be able to find a solution. Another solution would be for either CX or AS to rebook in full revenue class on OW partners, or last OP could simply purchase a revenue ticket and sue in SCC court. Since both airlines are responsible you only have to get one to pay up.

AndyKehn

No one is going to sue anyone. Your hypothetical is just that, a hypothetical with 0 basis of reality. You keyboard warrior types always threaten to sue and provide 0 useful advice to anyone. I highly doubt your AA example is even real. The fact is bookings made with another airline's miles is highly speculative. It's a gamble in most cases. You can get amazing value out of it (CX J and F using Alaska miles) but you also must have flexibility and be able to adapt at moments notice. Citing these useless laws and asking internet strangers for a miracle wont do OP any good.

Aliquot

The law is the law, and airlines generally follow the law. I too have had success invoking this law when my original iternary was made impossible when AS extended the suspension of service from my origin city. AS rebooked me on AC.

stevendorechester

My AA example is quite real. Was at Yul Airport last week having a ticket issued thanks to a paper voucher. Friend of mine needed help with his AA ticket so we both went together. Got his ticket reissued thanks to the info on a pamphlet all airlines in Canada are required to make avail to passengers.

As for suing I agree with you that most don't sue for two reasons: most don't know their rights while the ones that do usually work it out with the airline.

I've sued one airline...for them trying to charge me to upgrade my seat back to my original paid cabin after being downgraded. Was ignored by the airline at first but eventually got my money a short while after they got the summons.

eponymous_coward

This is probably the way to do this if OP doesn't want to get into contentious "give me what I want, a plane trip from Toronto on the EXACT date I want or I'll sue" territory.

AS doesn't have service from YYZ so it's not like they can put them on their own planes. Closest if you want to eliminate positioning flights is DTW. DTW-SEA-XXX-YYY-BKK is a reasonable ask IMO (if a pretty brutal routing). Might be able to use KE, JL, SQ, what have you. Depending on if/when AS gets off their posterior and allows mixed OW awards and OP's travel dates, it could be VERY feasible (say, AA to NRT and JL to BKK).

More like "are you going to insist on AS transporting you out of a city they have zero service in and where they either have to beg partners for space or buy you a ticket on the exact dates and times you scheduled travel for"? In other words, how flexible can you be around this? Zero? A little? Some?

Certainly go ahead and ask about KE out of YYZ but KE is under zero obligation to open up award inventory for AS just because they asked nicely.

As mentioned this IS a potential consequence of using airline miles where the carrier has zero service out of your city. IMO if you have very fixed plans doing mileage tickets on a carrier that doesn't even serve your city during a pandemic is asking for trouble like this. We're going on 20 months and reduced service shouldn't be a surprise any more.

CX is going to go "not our problem, we're in a pandemic and besides it's not our ticket". This is why the post was moved here. This is AS's ticket. OP's beef, as it is, is with AS because they are in need of service on a particular day in a particular city that AS has no way of providing without asking partners for help, or bellying up for a cash ticket.

Telling them "hey, go pay cash for a ticket or I will and I'll sue" is, well, a strategy.