I get it might be off and not-able-to-answer question but...

Thinking of booking VIE-CDG-BOG (AF) and BOG(CTG)-AMS-VIE in January in Y.

I can survive the red eye to Europe in Y since the flight would be rather empty and I am not keen to pay J outright as it is expensive for my liking.

But I would like to upgrade to J on CDG-BOG flight with either miles or cash.

I remember someone saying you can upgrade using miles to higher class right after booking your Y ticket. Is it the same amount on AF and KL from Y to J or AF has a bit different pricing since there is Y+ cabin offered too?

Are there flat miles rates of upgrades available now to destinations not so busy?
Is it cheaper to book KL Y and upgrade to J than on AF from Y to J beacause of Y+ present?

I don't know about how long haul KLM works for upgrades (I'm usually an AF flyer), but to go from Y to J on a long-haul AF flight is a two-class upgrade. If there is availability, you will see an upgrade for W and J at their respective rates.

There are no flat rates since a couple years ago, but depending on the destination the redemption rates aren't too shabby.

No , its not the same , its dynamic and depends on a lot of factors

No , amounts of miles and/or cash required is sometimes as crazy as usual , and keep in mind that service is reduced compare to normal times , therefore the amount they will ask might not be worthy

Not possible to answer , both Air france and KLM are separate companies that value their flights at different prices

It depends on many factors (such as load factor , price you paid , status , booking class , period of the year , etc ... this is not publicly disclosed by AF/KLM but some are pretty obvious) . In the end , two persons on the same flight sitting in Y might receive different offers

In general i havent seen or heard about any upgrades on AF from Y to J which was more than 900 euros for longhaul flights , but its just my experience , others might tell you something different

So if price difference at purchase is over 1000 euros then you better wait for checkin, afterwards you can also report on the offer you received here and ask for feedback if its good or not

Also one more thing to mention , by prices are dynamic , i really mean it , cause i have seen examples of long haul flights upgrades when between H-30 (checkin open) and H-6 prices went down by 100/150 euros

If you book Y , then take a look during online checkin , and also at the airport go to AF counters and ask for a quote

Maybe I'm off-topic and misunderstood what other posters have written above, but while I agree that award pricing (in miles) are dynamic for outright purchase of award tickets as well as for upgrade at check-in (OLCI or at the counter), my experience is that you can upgrade in advance (if availabilities in certain fare classes), and the price in that case is fixed. I did it not later than a couple of weeks ago. I just call the Platinum Service Line and they take care of that (you can also call Flying Blue directly).

Some data points on the JFK-CDG route, since this is the route that I am traveling:

From Premium Eco to Business:

If booked in A, you need availability in O, and the cost is fixed and is 30,000 miles (see screenshots).

If booked in S, you need availability in O, and the cost is fixed and is 25,000 miles.

If booked in W, and if you are FB Elite, you need availability in O or in Z, and the cost is fixed and is 22,500 miles.



From Economy to Business:

If availability in O, if booked in U, the cost is 25,000.

Those are the data points I have a direct experience with, since I was the one who did the upgrade.

I cannot comment on the other routes however.

Cheers,
Vinny



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No , you are not off topic , however your case might be specific

So you are flying this route quite often and everytime you made inquiries for upgrades ?? Since when and how often (more or less) ??

On every occasion amount asked was the same ?? And if so , was it requested always through the same channel ????

have you compared with other pax on the same route (jfk-cdg) and/or journey ?? If yes any differences ???

next time please try to get informations about upgrades from various channels (OLCI at various time before boarding close, at AF counters , over platinum line , etc ..... then if you notice some differences let us know . Same if you travel with a co-pax , especially if not on same booking , please ask him/her/they to do the same effort

anyway it is nteresting , thanks for feedback , will be worth to check i think

I've always done upgrades simply online in managing the résa (so not OLCI but well before the travel dates) and I do notice that the upgrade offers are variable and aren't always there. For instance, for my upcoming AMS - IAD itinerary there is nothing offered.

Furthermore, I've seen offers fluctuate: for example my econ ticket from IAD to CDG had an offer to W that was 30k but then increased to 40k a week later.

To answer to all your questions:

• Yes, I am based in NY/NJ and when flying Air France, always book Premium Economy (A, S or W) for both business ($2,000 is the maximum budget my company allows me for a transatlantic) or pleasure, with the hope each time that I can upgrade in advance for the fixed amount of miles (22,500 miles, 25,000 miles or 30,000 miles – it used to be even cheaper but they increased the rates last year), or a reasonable offer at OLCI (mix of cash & miles).
• I do it twice a year, always by calling the PSL. The PSL agent confirmed to me the upgrade in advance follows a chart of fixed rates. It doesn't seem to be limited to the NY-CDG route the way the agent explained to me. I always experienced the same rate every time, except when they increased the rates last year.
• This year, the PSL agent was a bit difficult and would not touch/upgrade in advance my Premium Economy booking because it was issued with a POS = USA, so she told me to call FB in North America (Canada Call Center). I did so, but only after I got confirmation of the number of miles and putting a note in my file. I upgraded my husband & I (from A to O). It was complex because we both had an infant seating on our lap each, so you needed to remove the infants, upgrade for 30,000 miles each, then re-add the infants, and charge the 10% upgrade fee in cash corresponding to the infants (around $40 each infant). The agent quoted me 60,000 miles each (total 120,000 miles), to which I objected and told him to look up the upgrade chart, and that it was only 30,000 miles per person, 60,000 miles total one-way, and that the PSL confirmed it to me. After having put on hold, the FB Canada agent confirmed me the rate and processed my upgrade. I received two emails (see screenshot) confirming each that 30,000 miles were deducted from my account.
• I have not asked around me to people who fly the same route whether they got charged the same rate for upgrading but I have no reason to believe it would be different. The PSL clearly mentioned the rates for upgrade in advance, assuming availabilities, are fixed and predetermined from a chart.
• as for the various rates of upgrades (in advance, OLCI, at the airport counter), I already reported my experience. See links below. I am 100% positive that upgrade at check-in (whether OLCI on the app/website or at the airport) with the various combos cash+miles are dynamic (AF looks at how many seats in Business they have, regardless of the fare class, and determines how much they charge for the offers), while the upgrades in advance are fixed rates, but subject to availability/yield management.

Hope this clarifies.

https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/31866203-post946.html (started from Post #936)

https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/31781010-post34.html

https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/31459288-post5.html

https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/31144236-post9.html

Cheers,
vinnyc


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Hi Vinnyc

thanks a lot for your detailed answers

i have few questions regarding statements you made

what is the DoD ? day of departure ? and how they are offered ? through app or counters ? What is the MMB ??

So the mail with offers usually is sent to you at H-56 ? On every occasions or randomly ?

I think you could (if you want of course) ask if not a big deal , but again its up to you .

The main problem i have , while i believe what you claim , i want to verify if these upgrades in advance always/often match the offers at OLCI and/or counters (more or less) , and if all of these are the same for everybody , cause i've witnessed cases where me and colleagues on AFKL flights received different offers at OLCI (or no mail offer at all for some)

In your case these upgrades are good for reasons you explained (business trips + miles gained per flight + platinum bonus + miles gained with FB amex) , the typical cases which i want to see are basic/cheap Y to J from various type of paxs with different profiles

Ok so this is the new lesson of the day for me , cause i thought upgrades in advance became dynamic too , so this require more feedback and tests from forum's members

Anyway i would like to thank you again for your time , its valuable and i will keep these upgrades in advance in mind , i just got platinum so i will be able to use the PSL line and ask for quotes , so i will be able to compare at different stages of the process

So this is how I understand things work (I may be totally wrong, so other FTers will gladly correct me...

At any point in time, you can book with your FB miles every ticket in any class (except La Première, onmy for FB Elite members), as long as they are offered to be sold at public fares. The price in miles depends and is directly correlated to the price in cash (i.e. the fare class: if there are Z fares sold in Business for a given POS – Point of Sale – the price in miles will be cheaper than if there were only C fares). That is the principle of dynamic pricing: there is an equivalency between a mile and its cash value.


Up until H-56, the capacity on a given flight is strictly controlled by the Yield Management, which dictates how many seats in each of the fare classes are released to be sold. In particular, if you are looking to book an outright business class award seat or upgrade into a business class seat (from whichever class), you will need to have availabilities in the precious "O" fare class.
In that case, and assuming there are availabilities (fare classes) in the cabin you wish to upgrade to, you just need to call Flying Blue, or the Platinum Service Line (which can handle basic FB-related matters). The "Upgrade in Advance" is subject to a fixed rate chart (in miles), depending on the fare class you upgrade from and the fare class you upgrade to, and obviously, the route (zone of origin and zone of destination).
For JFK <-> CDG/ORY, I already provided some data points that I experience first hand.


Starting from H-56, the control by the Yield Management is relaxed a bit, and although the YM still dictates how many seats are to ne released in any fare class, they will start to release some inventory in Premium Economy, Business and La Première available for upgrade. The more unsold seats, the more inventory will be released for upgrades. (At that point, there is still overlap potentially for release of award fares, and in particular, if the O is released and available, you can still "upgrade in advance".)

When this happens, it is the Marketing team has some latitude to offer upgrades via targeted email offers with a link, or directly through the "MMB" ("Manage My Booking") section on the AF section or on the app. Those who receive those offers are chosen by the Marketing team based on subjective criteria that I am not privy of: passengers who might get hooked on the business class product if they get a taste of it etc...). The offer is always exclusively in miles and the rationale for the amount is largely unknown (mix of dynamic pricing + subjective considerations of the targeted passenger).


At H-30 (check-in opening), the Yield Management is almost no longer in control of the capacity, it is mainly under the control of the airport. When you check in online via the AF website or on your phone, if there are any remaining Business Class seats available (that have either not been sold, used for upgrade in advance, nor used by targeted offers through the MMB), then they are offered at that point on a first come first served basis. The offer is quoted as a 5 choices: 100% miles – 0 cash, 100% cash – 0 miles, and three variations in-between. If all offers have been accepted by people who checked in ahead of you, you're screwed.

This is why I would recommend to continually check your reservation between H-56 and H-30, and then check-in online as early as you can.



In one of the examples I provided earlier, I offered a round trip ticket to a friend, which I paid for, in dirty cheap economy. I wanted however to treat him further with an upgrade. Considering the flight duration, it was more worthy to upgrade on the VDG-> JFK outbound flight. So I called the PSL to inquire about availabilities in Premium Economy. The PSL Agent told me there was a better deal, because the O was available, and after checking her award upgrade chart, quoted me 25,000 miles to upgrade from U to O. I, of course, jumped on the opportunity (to be honest, I was really surprised it cost the same to upgrade from Eco/U to O as from Prem Eco/S to O).



Congratulations on achieving Platinum status! You can then call the PSL and ask for yourself about the upgrade award chart.

Cheers,
vinnyc

Congratulations :) :tu:

Sure i will for my next AF longhaul trip .

thanks , no big deal , just cause of letfover xps from 2018 + some long haul trips + plus a lot of corporate trips combined with my procrastination which always helped me avoid Star Alliance and IHG

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My goal was just to keep gold cause i was happy with it , and maybe take a look at RJ's royal club but then $**t happened ..... and i found myself still flying skyteam

Now i have again so much xps left after threshold , that in addition to all trips i rescheduled for 2021, i won't need any additional plans to keep platinum

I even considered to do an extra effort for a "mattress run" to ALL gold status , as i was really close to it than planned due to the fast track sprint offer . Taking into account the rollover policy for 2021 + sheer amount of vouchers i had from their hotels , it is good occasion to get cheap/easy status

If you want to get XP now is a good time to do it, since they offer double XP until end of year. If you're flying from Düsseldorf, sometimes you can get a cheap BC to CDG via Schiphol. That's 4 hops each worth 30XP.

Availability of O class is a mess. Since it is also a revenue booking class, there are cases where FB cannot access O inventory although such inventory is accessible if you book a normal revenue ticket in "promo business". Also this revenue inventory seems to be available using skymiles whereas it is not available to FB members. So which O inventory counts for upgrades in advance? the one available to FB or the one available to general sales? I am pretty sure nobody knows until the system accepts to reissue the ticket in the upgraded class.

In the past, upgrade from S to O was 60% of one way eco award, so 15k for US-Europe and 24k for Europe-Asia. It seems they have increased the rates, I wish they would publish this info. However looking at U to O, it seems that the old rates are still valid, so a good deal would be to find origin destination with cheap full flex B fares to upgrade to business for few miles and keep the ticket flexibility.

We need an "insider"... My understanding is that for the fare classes that are "hybrid" (in the sense that they can be either revenue or award in different cabins), the agent can see the difference.

For example, when you are booked in the highest Premium Eco fare class (the "W"), and provided that you are a FB Elite, you can tap into the "Z"-fare inventory to upgrade to Business, in addition to the "O" fare. Naively, I checked on ExpertFlyer and when I saw availabilities in "Z", I called the PSL to request fir an "upgrade in advance". However the agent told me there were no availabilities, to which I replied that I saw 2 openings in Z. The agent told me there is a difference between the "Z" public heavily discounted
Business fare and the "Z" for upgrade.

I inferred from that comment that somehow they can see something that we cannot, and therefore distinguish the various fare classes.

Cheers,
vinnyc

Why do a mattress run for ALL gold if you can get that status (ALL gold) by buying the IBIS business card (90€).