New policy for paid and miles upgrades (AF/KL) - sept 2017
 

An important information has been posted today in AF/KL travel agents portal regarding upgrade policy on AF and KL flights (paid with cash and/or miles). There are some points that are totally unclear to me in the French text (the English translation is mine, so pardon me if some parts are hard to understand, because I don't understand it either in French). For instance : what is an "anti-dilution level" ? :confused: and don't ask me what is the "Oscar interface" !

TRANSLATION:

AFKL: new conditions for upgrading
Air France (AF) and KLM (KL) introduce a new policy for paid upgrades. Its main characteristics are:
- A price based on the number of seats available in the cabin for which the passenger wishes to be upgraded, irrespective of whether the cabin for which the ticket was issued is overbooked or not.
- Flying Blue members have more flexibility depending on the number of Miles and cash they wish to use to purchase their upgrade.
- More user-friendly sales tools thanks to the Oscar interface.
- Passengers can purchase online upgrades for the La Première cabin on AF flights.

Prices
The new rates include 5 levels, based on the number of seats available in the cabin for which the passenger wishes to upgrade, and an anti-dilution level.
Passengers can choose from the following five payment options in cash and / or miles:
-100% cash
-100% Miles
-50% cash / 50% Miles
-75% cash / 25% Miles
-25% cash / 75% Miles

The above rate Miles & Cash + Miles only will be gradually extended to online distribution channels
Until further notice, Miles & Cash + Miles only will not be available on board.

The upgrade fee is set by the Revenue Management 56 hours before departure if it is purchased through the Manage My Booking (MMB) section on AF only or on connecting flights between 56 hours and 31 hours before take-off .

For upgrades purchased on AF & KL via the online check-in system (OLCI), Kiosks (KL) / interactive kiosks (AF) and off-line, the tariff is also set 31 hours before departure.

Distribution
Existing current cash or mileage rates will continue to be applied through the following channels:
* Online - Manage my reservation (AF only), OLCI (AFKL) and Kiosks (KL) / interactive kiosks (AF)
* Offline - Airport counter or Service Desks (all airport stations + Lounges & Boarding gates (depending on airport infrastructure)

Thanks Goldorak for sharing that.

At first sight I see some improvements compared to the current scheme, such as more consistency and more transparency.
Nonetheless I fear that the upgrade fares (would it be cash or miles) will increase when they say "les nouveaux tarifs"...

Like you I don't understand what is the "niveau anti-dilution". Is that a dissuasive sixth fare in addition to the five mentioned?

Also mentioning 5 upgrade fares (depending on the yields) and 5 payment options is particularly misleading.

My understanding of Oscar is that it is an AF interface for travel agents. Probably the one they use to upgrade tickets already with miles for their customers.

Is this effective immediately (September 20)? I might be encounter this new policy for my upcoming SIN-CDG flight (October 2), currently booked in Y.

I have the feeling that, yes, it's applicable from now but....
Let's report here !

AFAIK Oscar is a user interface developed by Amadeus that shows a slider that customers can use on the webpage, where the slider can go on a range from only miles to only cash, and prices in between mixing different amounts of miles and of cash. I have seen something like that on Lufthansa webpages, maybe I can find a photo.

The way I understand it "fares" and "methods of payment" are one and the same thing. There are five fares, each one representing a different mix of miles and cash. Anti-dilution is the floor price, which is set so as not to make the upgraded cabin too cheap to access. Airlines, and especially Air France and KLM, are obsessed with keeping access to higher cabins expensive. They want to avoid that people buy inexpensive fares in a lower class, and then use an inexpensive instrument to upgrade themselves. The same philosophy that is also behind their very restrictive upgrade policies for passengers that are not friends and family of the crew.

What I don't know but would find interesting to know: does this mean that upgrades can now be bought by everybody? Wasn't it the case that until now that offers for upgrades would only go out by mail to selected passengers?

Thanks for sharing. I am confused with this new policy

- are the upgrade prices (miles or $$) still be based on the booking sub-class?
- I hope I did not misunderstood this new policy as dynamic pricing - i.e as the cabin fills up, the prices increase (miles or $$).

No idea why they are changing the current policy which at least is simple to understand and fair to a certain level (i.e less miles needed for expensive tickets) - of me at least.

Cheers!

MMB upgrades could be purchased at any time, by any passenger, as long as there is availability.
OLCI upgrades would also seem to be available for all passengers, as long as there is availability. (Either offered explicitly or 'hidden' but you can get to it by looking at the seat map)

The e-mail offers were indeed only available for certain PAX, I'm not sure how will those be handled now...

I see that as two different things:
- On the one hand the fare for upgrading, based on the availability in the desired class of travel (how is the original booking fare taken into account btw? ): could go from XXX EUR/USD etc. to ZZZ EUR/USD etc. with 3 intermediary fares.
- On the other hand the method of payment which could go from 100% cash to 100% miles with 3 intermediary mix.

In my understanding one would be able to pay XXX EUR/USD etc. either by using 100% cash or any of the other 4 ways of payments.

Same for the 4 other fares.

Is there a fixed conversion rate between miles and money? Or will this ratio somehow vary based on loads, fare or fare class purchased, etc.?

Does status on either AF/KLM (FB) or Sky Team matter? And can DL miles be used in place of FB miles, as AFAIK has been possible for "cheap" upgrades on KLM and DL flights departing from AMSA or otherwisae handled by KLM?

In fact, more generally, does this affect DL operated flights at all, including those (TATL) included in the JV such as DL departures from AMS (and now CDG apparently if AF and KLM flights are going to follow the same rules and pricing formulae now)?

The way I understand it.
1. The upgrade price is fixed 56 hours before departure depending on the number of seats available. They set both a cash price and a miles price (possibly the ratio cash/miles is approx fix).
2. That single price remains the same till departure and anyone can grab it, whatever the fare bucket he/she booked.

I assume that this is for a one-class upgrade (Y to W or W to J).
And surprised to see that F is also included. AF has a real problem to fill F on their A380.

If my assumptions are correct, it is great for those paying deep-discounted fares but those buying an expensive and flexible fares might find it unfair.
And there will be crowd on website at T-56

is it safe to assume that at T-56h, the more seats available in the cabin to be upgraded to, the lower the upgrade price will be? seems like there definitely will be a crowd at T-56 then, like brunos said. magical hour

That's also how I understand it. The MMB hasn't changed yet for my booking, asking for 80K Y to C (60K Y to W) miles for the SIN-CDG leg. I will definitely log-in at T-56 to see if there are changes.

IMHO, anti-dilution means that they will sell free available seats at a minimum price that protect the "normal" market

For the KL, this isn't an enormous change if you ask me. This looks like a small change to the 'regular' DoD upgrade option which you can get at either OLCI/Kiosks if offered or at the service desk at the airport where you can upgrade with miles, miles and money or just money?

Well, at least today the system is down. Or for me.
Flying tomorrow DKR-CDG-HKG and all I get is an error code every second time and "Sorry, all sold" every second time. This on AF website. Ipad app has lost the upgrade possibility alltogether.

Should be interesting to see what these fares will be - JFK-CDG next week on the A380, RT was heavily discounted approx $400. Will check T-56. Thanks Goldorak

Still not entirely clear. Say I have a CDG-HND in J. Checking my reservation 56 hours before departure, would I then suddenly see Premiere seats offered at a price that would be less than the "normal" ticket fare? And the same at OLCI, would it be offered at an upgrade price that is less than the normal ticket fare? And when I arrive at CDG, could I just walk up to the Premiere check-in, say that I have seen on expertflyer or the AF website that there are free seats in P, and pay an upgrade price rather than a full fare upgrade?

Yes, you're right. What I was thinking about were the upgrades that were offered by email, I think they were sent out before OLCI opened. And I don't think OLCI upgrade possibilities included Premiere? At least I have never seen it.

Not sure where we actually have the same thing in mind. What I was thinking of are that the five possibilities offered for *one specific* flight were five prices, where each price corresponds to a form of payment. For instance (numbers made up), an upgrade for this flight offers the following five upgrade fares:

Flight AFxx, IAD-CDG, on September 21, upgrade from J to P:

Fare 1: 1500 USD
Fare 2: 1200 USD + 30,000 miles
Fare 3: 800 USD + 60,000 miles
Fare 4: 400 USD + 90,000 miles
Fare 5: 140,000 miles

Now, what certainly will be the case is that these prices can vary *from one flight to the next*, depending - as you said - on availability. Hence the same flight AFxx, IAD-CDG, on September 22, could look the following, simply because it has less availability:

Fare 1: 2000 USD
Fare 2: 1600 USD + 30,000 miles
Fare 3: 1200 USD + 60,000 miles
Fare 4: 800 USD + 90,000 miles
Fare 5: 180,000 miles

I don't think that you have 5 different fares for one and the same flight, with each one offering 5 different mixes of cash and miles. What would those 5 different fares be based on, if not on different forms of payment? Availability of *a* flight is what it is, the fares get fixed 56 hours before departure, so what would be the difference between the five fares, if not the form-of-payment mix?

Therefore I think that every "fare" in fact corresponds to a certain mix of cash and miles.

I appreciate them working a bit on this, because it seemed odd that you previously had to rely on DoD upgrades to do a miles / cash / miles split.

We should see lowest prices at T-56 hrs and T-24 hrs (when the remaining upgrades likely adjust price to the lowest due to revenue mgmt).

Agreed on the variable prices from one flight/date to another.

Original fare bucket?

Interesting comments :)
I have another information : the news I have quoted for this thread has disappeared from the AFKL travel agent portal :confused:
I don't know how to interpret it : glitch ? posted by mistake or too early by AFKL?

Thanks for the info :)

It changed a bit for a year or something like that. Indeed, I haven't received an e-mail for upgrade proposal for a very long time but was seing regularly some possibility to upgrade from Y to J medium-haul in the AF app during OLCI (or even after if you return to the check-in part to change your seat or just look at the seat map). Regarding the new system, I don't know if everyone will see an upgrade possibility. I have the feeling that it won't be the case because, as you rightly said, they don't want pax to buy a lower cabin and expect "systematically" to be able to pay for a cheap upgrade to the upper cabin. But I might be wrong.

Unknown for the 1st question. For the 2nd, you rightly understood.
And about why they do that ? Simply to generate more revenue by introducing dynamic pricing as for revenue bookings.

I'm not sure there will be UG e-mails anymore, unless those are still targeted.

I'm sure there will be a fixed conversion rate between cash and miles, like for the option payments (lounge access, extra luggage, etc).
For your question about DL flights, I wanted to include a part of the AF announcement that I haven't quoted in my original post, but as the news has now been removed by AF...

Yes and yes.

OK understood ;) Thanks

I believe it will be yes, yes and no. But do not expect big discounts for J to P (depending on the flight it will likely be from EUR 1500 to 2500, based on the current paid UG data points we have seen posted in the other thread).


There were some (I have received in the past UG e-mails for CDG-PVG and return from J to P for EUR 2500 each way).

Overall, there are a lot of uncertainties at that stage, the 1st one being is this implemented (see my introductory comment about the news being removed from the TA portal). Reporting here will be valuable for everyone. I oppose the following template for collecting info for the H-56 to DoD upgrades (any comment/suggestions are welcome):

- route :
- which class were you booked in (eco/PE/Business/first and if known fare booked) ? :
- was any upgrade proposed and if yes, to which cabin (PE, J, P) and at which moment (H-56 to H-30 in MMB, H-30 to H OLCI, airport counter) ? :
- at which price ? :


It will be also important to report if you are proposed UG at every flight or just sometimes (as today).
Have fun :D

Hi,

My experience last saturday,23-sept. Managed to upgrade my flight from Prem. Eco to J from CDG-IAH. They were still using the old system as I'm used to i.e: based on purchased fare sub-class.
Paid with my miles, did not ask how much it would be if I had wanted to pay cash.

So, at least for now, nothing seem to have changed - i did not ask if there was something new coming up.

Cheers!

I have a medium-haul flight coming soon and I have in MMB the usual link to upgrade with miles, but nothing happened at H-56 and since that.

The MMB has changed somewhat: when I click on the link to see availability for upgrades this is what appears:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/membe...creen-shot.png

Maybe a glitch or no more availability?

I flew JFK-AMS on KLM yesterday and this policy was in effect (and they explicitly told me that there was a new "formula" since Monday).

I usually fly high-fare buckets (Y/B/M) and was on a B fare yesterday. The all-cash upgrade was about 640USD (which is more expensive than usual), the next option was about 450USD and 13k miles, and the all-miles option was 45000 miles (which is much higher than the published 25k upgrade from B->J). I don't remember the numbers for the other intermediate options.

They also didn't process the upgrade immediately: I asked for it at the check-in counters, they made me an offer, and then told me it would be confirmed at the gate. The gate agents at JFK were all Delta gate agents and it seemed to be handled like a US-style upgrade process, clearing all upgrades at the very end, not first-come-first-serve. They mentioned it was prioritized by status and not fare bucket.

This makes KLM much less attractive for people in a position to buy high-fare economy tickets.

They want you to act normally - i.e. buy the cheapest-available economy ticket :D

Is it just me, or is the upgrade calculator down?

Has anyone upgraded from W (or S) to J using this?

Great new system
 

I‘m aboard a KLM flight from AMS to PVG.

Tickt was booked today in N class wich is very very poor. Asked the Platinum desk via telephone about 10 hours prior to departure about an upgrade. Agent said, poor booking class, 90.000 miles (or even 95.000) to upgrade to C. Declined.

Started another try at the gate. Very nice lady was calling Ticket office and gave me 5 options:

375 EUR without miles
289 with 11.000 miles
190 with 22.500 miles
90 with 35.000 miles
0 with 45.000 miles

I choosed 45k miles. But now I think the 375 EUR upgrade is much more better. Kiosk offer upgrade to C for 1299 EUR.

Will fly back from PVG to CDG on Sunday. Booked in B. Let’s see what they can offer then.

I think the system is still not in place on the AF side.
I flew CDG-TXL this week (booked in Y). Nothing happened at H-56. At OLCI in the app there was an offer for a paid upgrade to C for €89 (which is not too bad IMO for a 2hrs flight) with 7 seats indicated as available. No possibility to pay with miles or a combination of cash and miles. Over time until close to limit check-in time, the number of C seats available for upgrade decreased to 3, but the price stayed the same at €89. I didn’t take it.
I fly back tomorrow and no upgrade is proposed and this is normal as all flights tomorrow show J0 Y0 !!
It seems that there are a lot of millenials flying tomorrow between TXL and CDG ;) :D

UPDATE : looking again at the seat map for my tomorrow’s flight, a paid upgrade offer poped-up (3 seats available), but €119, while it was €89 for my inbound flight :(
still cash only.

You are right 375€ is VERY nice for a N class ticket. Good to know that there are some good deals to get, I will probably ask at the gate more often since I usually travel in low bucket fares.

Due to fly AMS-GRU tomorrow on KL - I see one seat in C, but no upgrade offered during OLCI. I called KL to enquire - they could book me into that seat by changing my ticket for a mere 2500 EUR. I'll check at the airport again tomorrow.

Where do you see this one seat? it is very likely they could overbook you in J for 2500€ and that there aren't actually any seats available if everyone shows up.

I see the seat in Expertflyer, and they have confirmed the seat is available.

Actually I see J2 C2 for that flight, but it just means there are available tickets to buy, it doesn't say how many tickets were already sold.

I don't know where you're looking, but EF shows J1 and everything else zeroed out on KL791 tomorrow.

hrm it is indeed J1 and 0 for everything else now, so even better, unlikely that there is an actual seat available, it just means they are happy to overbook it by 1 more seat.

Weirdly though, if I try to book business class for that flight on KLM.com now, I'm quoted 6000-odd Euros with a note "only 2 seats available at that price", but no option to select a seat, which corroborates the idea that it's actually full.

You can't select a seat because the flight is already "in the checkin system", EF doesn't have NL POS, so that could explain why you see 2 and EF shows 1 (or it could just be "fluctuating")

I checked again about half an hour ago, and all of a sudden 6 seats had opened up in business class and I managed to score one for 454 EUR.

OK, not a bad price. What was your original fare class? And was there a mileage option as well?