May 9, 2019, 3:08 pm
Last edit by: Goldorak
FLYING BLUE ULTIMATE
Main facts
Ultimate is the top status in FB. It may be added to Club 2000 Skipper status.
While other FB status (Silver/Gold/Platinum) are based on experience points earning (XP), Ultimate status is obtained by Ultimate XP (UXP) earning. UXPs are earned exclusively on AF- and KL-coded (= marketed) flights, whatever the operating airline.
Some examples :
- CDG-JFK AF-marketing, AF-operating : eligible to UXP earning
- CDG-JFK DL-marketing, AF-operating : NON-eligible to UXP earning
- AMS-BOS KL-marketing, DL-operating : eligible to UXP earning
- BOS-IND KL-marketing, DL-operating : eligible to UXP earning
- SIN-SYD AF-marketing, QF-operating : eligible to UXP earning
- CDG-FCO AZ-marketing, AZ-operating : NON-eligible to UXP earning
XP earned via AFKL Amex cards are not eligible (those are XP and not UXP).
To qualify for Ultimate, it is needed to have 900 UXP over a year. It is similar to the normal XP counter, resetting as soon as the tier is reached. Ultimate is valid for 1 year once granted. Note 03/2023 : the qualification system just changed from 1800 UXP over 2 years to 900 UXP/1 year. Some transitional measures are in place for the current Ultimate members. See here for details about handling of transition period :
https://www.flyingblue.com/fr/landin...m_content=main
Since 03/2023, a rollover of surplus UXP (over 900) is now possible to the next year and only to the next year (example : year 1, the member earns 2000UXP. At the end of year 1, only 900 UXP will be rolled-over to year 2 and the remaining 1100 UXP earned in Y1 will be lost and not be transferred to year 3. If during year 2, the member earned 1000 new (fresh) UXP, 100 will be rolled-over to year 3.
Hard benefits
- All FB Platinum/Club 2000-Skipper benefits
- Access to a Travel Assistant service 24/7. They are reachable by phone or by email. In practice, from 8 pm to 8 am CET, calls are taken by the Platinum line.
- highest priority on waiting list and in case of irrops
- Possibility to register up to 8 persons who can benefit from Sky Priority services and lounge access when traveling with the Ultimate member and on same PNR (lounge access is only in AFKL lounges here).
- one companion Platinum card
- when the Ultimate member is flying P, 2 guests are allowed in CDG P lounge.
- Zone 1 boarding, irrespective of travel class.
- Access to Hertz Platinum status
- four one-class upgrade certificates per membership year, requiring 1 from W to J, or 2 from Y to J. Upgrades are confirmed instantly at the time of booking (via the Travel Assistant). One voucher = one way. Vouchers can also be used by one of the 8 registered friend/family members travelling by themselves. In case of a long-haul flight with a medium-haul connection/feeder (e.g. CDG-AMS-JFK), the medium-haul segment will be upgraded also with still only one voucher used. In case of 2 long-haul flights in connection (e,g. DXB-CDG-JFK), the use of 2 vouchers is required to upgrade the 2 segments. Upgrade vouchers are usable only on AF- or KL-marketing and operating flights and the PNR must contains only the AFKL flights to be upgraded (if the PNR contains other non-AFKL flights, you cannot upgrade even just the AFKL flights).
The upgrade coupons are valid as soon as you reach Ultimate and is valid for 12 months. The vouchers need to be used within the membership year, but can be applied for travel post expiry date.
Rules for eligible booking classes for the upgrade vouchers are described below :
AF flights, long-haul
Premium Eco to Business
Original booking class : A, S, W
Upgraded booking class : Z, I, D, C (it means that if the flight has only J fare available, one cannot upgrade)
Eco to Business (all flights, except to/from USA, Canada, Mexico)
Original booking class : Y, B, M, U, K, H, L, Q, T, N, R
Upgraded booking class : Z, I, D, C (it means that if the flight has only J fare available, one cannot upgrade)
Eco to Business (flights to/from USA, Canada, Mexico, including LAX-PPT)
Original booking class : Y, B, M, U, K, H, L, Q, T, N
Upgraded booking class : Z, C
KL flights, long-haul
Eco to Business (all flights, except to/from USA, Canada, Mexico and DEL)
Original booking class : Y, B, M, U, K, H, L, Q, T, N, R
Upgraded booking class : Z, I, D, C
Eco to Business (flights to/from USA, Canada, Mexico and DEL)
Original booking class : Y, B, M, U, K, H, L, Q, T, N
Upgraded booking class : Z, I.
Airline-specific soft (unpublished) benefits
- AF, KL and contract staff at airports have a popup message on their computer screen when checking-in an Ultimate pax or when scanning a BP at the lounge (AFKL lounges only) asking them to be attentive at any special request of the Ultimate pax. See also below for airport-specific soft benefits. There is no known official policy for operational upgrades of Ultimates, but Ultimate members have all reported on FT a higher rate of op-up (but those remain rare !).
- AF and KL cabin crews are instructed to provide extra care and attentions on-board. It can take different forms : special greetings, extra amenities (pillow, oshibori, etc), F&B from the upper class, upgrades on board (Y to J medium haul, W to J or Y to W long haul), earlier and quicker meal service. This is not systematic and is up to the appreciation of the crew. Based on the reports of Ultimate members of this forum, AF crews seems to be more compliant than KL crews with those directives, although there has been several reports in this thread of nice attentions provided by KL crews.- Unlimited downloads (any day) in AF PLAY app.
Other Skyteam airlines do not provide any extra service or attentions to FB Ultimate passengers.
Airport-specific soft (unpublished) benefits
All benefits below should be understood for departure, unless otherwise noted. In addition to what is mentioned below, it has been reported several cases of expedited transfers organised by AFKL staff in case of short/endangered connection at various airports.
Please complete/edit this list as needed.
AFKL HUBS
Amsterdam
- AMS : some reserved tables in the Non-Schengen lounges. Reserved area in the Schengen lounge (need to ask staff at long entrance). Pre-boarding sometimes granted at the gate.
Paris CDG
Paris ORY
EUROPE
Austria
- VIE: no special treatment to report
Croatia
- DBV: no special treatment to report
- SPU: no special treatment to report (not even lounge access)
Czech Republic
- PRG: no special treatment to report. Pre-boarding refused.
Denmark
- CPH: no special treatment to report
France (non-hubs)
- AJA: no special treatment to reportMain facts
Ultimate is the top status in FB. It may be added to Club 2000 Skipper status.
While other FB status (Silver/Gold/Platinum) are based on experience points earning (XP), Ultimate status is obtained by Ultimate XP (UXP) earning. UXPs are earned exclusively on AF- and KL-coded (= marketed) flights, whatever the operating airline.
Some examples :
- CDG-JFK AF-marketing, AF-operating : eligible to UXP earning
- CDG-JFK DL-marketing, AF-operating : NON-eligible to UXP earning
- AMS-BOS KL-marketing, DL-operating : eligible to UXP earning
- BOS-IND KL-marketing, DL-operating : eligible to UXP earning
- SIN-SYD AF-marketing, QF-operating : eligible to UXP earning
- CDG-FCO AZ-marketing, AZ-operating : NON-eligible to UXP earning
XP earned via AFKL Amex cards are not eligible (those are XP and not UXP).
To qualify for Ultimate, it is needed to have 900 UXP over a year. It is similar to the normal XP counter, resetting as soon as the tier is reached. Ultimate is valid for 1 year once granted. Note 03/2023 : the qualification system just changed from 1800 UXP over 2 years to 900 UXP/1 year. Some transitional measures are in place for the current Ultimate members. See here for details about handling of transition period :
https://www.flyingblue.com/fr/landin...m_content=main
Since 03/2023, a rollover of surplus UXP (over 900) is now possible to the next year and only to the next year (example : year 1, the member earns 2000UXP. At the end of year 1, only 900 UXP will be rolled-over to year 2 and the remaining 1100 UXP earned in Y1 will be lost and not be transferred to year 3. If during year 2, the member earned 1000 new (fresh) UXP, 100 will be rolled-over to year 3.
Hard benefits
- All FB Platinum/Club 2000-Skipper benefits
- Access to a Travel Assistant service 24/7. They are reachable by phone or by email. In practice, from 8 pm to 8 am CET, calls are taken by the Platinum line.
- highest priority on waiting list and in case of irrops
- Possibility to register up to 8 persons who can benefit from Sky Priority services and lounge access when traveling with the Ultimate member and on same PNR (lounge access is only in AFKL lounges here).
- one companion Platinum card
- when the Ultimate member is flying P, 2 guests are allowed in CDG P lounge.
- Zone 1 boarding, irrespective of travel class.
- Access to Hertz Platinum status
- four one-class upgrade certificates per membership year, requiring 1 from W to J, or 2 from Y to J. Upgrades are confirmed instantly at the time of booking (via the Travel Assistant). One voucher = one way. Vouchers can also be used by one of the 8 registered friend/family members travelling by themselves. In case of a long-haul flight with a medium-haul connection/feeder (e.g. CDG-AMS-JFK), the medium-haul segment will be upgraded also with still only one voucher used. In case of 2 long-haul flights in connection (e,g. DXB-CDG-JFK), the use of 2 vouchers is required to upgrade the 2 segments. Upgrade vouchers are usable only on AF- or KL-marketing and operating flights and the PNR must contains only the AFKL flights to be upgraded (if the PNR contains other non-AFKL flights, you cannot upgrade even just the AFKL flights).
The upgrade coupons are valid as soon as you reach Ultimate and is valid for 12 months. The vouchers need to be used within the membership year, but can be applied for travel post expiry date.
Rules for eligible booking classes for the upgrade vouchers are described below :
AF flights, long-haul
Premium Eco to Business
Original booking class : A, S, W
Upgraded booking class : Z, I, D, C (it means that if the flight has only J fare available, one cannot upgrade)
Eco to Business (all flights, except to/from USA, Canada, Mexico)
Original booking class : Y, B, M, U, K, H, L, Q, T, N, R
Upgraded booking class : Z, I, D, C (it means that if the flight has only J fare available, one cannot upgrade)
Eco to Business (flights to/from USA, Canada, Mexico, including LAX-PPT)
Original booking class : Y, B, M, U, K, H, L, Q, T, N
Upgraded booking class : Z, C
KL flights, long-haul
Eco to Business (all flights, except to/from USA, Canada, Mexico and DEL)
Original booking class : Y, B, M, U, K, H, L, Q, T, N, R
Upgraded booking class : Z, I, D, C
Eco to Business (flights to/from USA, Canada, Mexico and DEL)
Original booking class : Y, B, M, U, K, H, L, Q, T, N
Upgraded booking class : Z, I.
Airline-specific soft (unpublished) benefits
- AF, KL and contract staff at airports have a popup message on their computer screen when checking-in an Ultimate pax or when scanning a BP at the lounge (AFKL lounges only) asking them to be attentive at any special request of the Ultimate pax. See also below for airport-specific soft benefits. There is no known official policy for operational upgrades of Ultimates, but Ultimate members have all reported on FT a higher rate of op-up (but those remain rare !).
- AF and KL cabin crews are instructed to provide extra care and attentions on-board. It can take different forms : special greetings, extra amenities (pillow, oshibori, etc), F&B from the upper class, upgrades on board (Y to J medium haul, W to J or Y to W long haul), earlier and quicker meal service. This is not systematic and is up to the appreciation of the crew. Based on the reports of Ultimate members of this forum, AF crews seems to be more compliant than KL crews with those directives, although there has been several reports in this thread of nice attentions provided by KL crews.- Unlimited downloads (any day) in AF PLAY app.
Other Skyteam airlines do not provide any extra service or attentions to FB Ultimate passengers.
Airport-specific soft (unpublished) benefits
All benefits below should be understood for departure, unless otherwise noted. In addition to what is mentioned below, it has been reported several cases of expedited transfers organised by AFKL staff in case of short/endangered connection at various airports.
Please complete/edit this list as needed.
AFKL HUBS
Amsterdam
- AMS : some reserved tables in the Non-Schengen lounges. Reserved area in the Schengen lounge (need to ask staff at long entrance). Pre-boarding sometimes granted at the gate.
Paris CDG
- CDG 2E:
- Departure : Escort from check-in to immigration in the morning (super fast track). Reserved space at K/L/M lounges. Pre-boarding upon request at the gate before beginning of general boarding
- Arrival : access to dedicated lane at passport control, all the way to the left, follow the "ULTIMATE" sign.
- Departure : There is a special Ultimate check-in counter in the SkyP zone (on the left of terminal). Reserved room in the lounge. Pre-boarding upon request at the gate before beginning of general boarding. Escort is provided from the counter to security (skipping the line).
- Arrival : no special treatment to report
- Departure : Reserved space in the lounge
- Arrival : no special treatment to report
Paris ORY
- Departure : Reserved space at Schengen and non-Schengen lounges. Pre-boarding upon request at the lounge.
- Arrival : no special treatment to report
EUROPE
Austria
- VIE: no special treatment to report
Croatia
- DBV: no special treatment to report
- SPU: no special treatment to report (not even lounge access)
Czech Republic
- PRG: no special treatment to report. Pre-boarding refused.
Denmark
- CPH: no special treatment to report
France (non-hubs)
- BES: no special treatment to report
- BIQ: no special treatment to report
- BOD: pre-boarding from lounge to plane inconsistently proposed
- CDG: see top of the list in "AFKL hubs".
- LYS: Escort from lounge to plane when flying from B gates provided upon request . Preboarding with escort to the plane consistently provided.
- MPL: pre-boarding with escort from lounge to plane, sometimes proposed (AF agent comes to the contract lounge to meet the Ultimate guest)
- MRS: no special treatment to report
- NCE: Reserved area in Infinity lounge (inconsistently provided : seems to be provided only when lounge crowded). Pre-boarding with escort from lounge to plane, sometimes proposed.
- NTE: no special treatment to report
- ORY: see top of the list in "AFKL hubs".
- PUF: bypass queue at security and pre-boarding provided upon request
- RNS: bypass queue at security and pre-boarding provided upon request
- TLS: Escort from check in to lounge inconsistently provided. Pre-boarding consistently provided
Germany
- BER: no special treatment to report
- DUS: no special treatment to report
- FRA: no special treatment to report
- HAM: no special treatment to report
- HAJ: No special treatment to report.
- MUC: Reserved area in the lounge, escort from lounge to plane with pre-boarding proposed.
- STR: reserved area in the lounge, pre-boarding
Greece
- ATH: no special treatment to report
- HER: no special treatment to report
- JTR: no special treatment to report
Hungary
- BUD: escort through security from check-in to lounge proposed
Ireland
- DUB: no special treatment to report
Italy
- BLQ: escort from check-in to lounge, and through security to plane.
- BRI: no special treatment to report
- CTA: no special treatment to report
- FCO: no special treatment to report
- FLR: no special treatment to report
- LIN: no special treatment to report
- MXP: pre-boarding granted by request
- VCE: escort through security from check-in to lounge, pre-boarding with escort from lounge to plane (not always consistently proposed)
- NAP: no special treatment to report
Netherlands
- AMS: see top of the list in "AFKL hubs".
Norway
- OSL: no special treatment to report
- TRF: no special treatment to report
- KRS: no special treatment to report
- SVG: no special treatment to report
Poland
- WAW: no special treatment to report
- KRK: no special treatment to report
- GDN: no special treatment to report
Portugal
- LIS: pre-boarding proposed upon request
Russia
- SVO: no special treatment to report
- LED: no special treatment to report
Spain
- AGP: no special treatment to report
- BCN: no special treatment to report
- MAD: no special treatment to report
- PMI: no special treatment to report
- SVQ: no special treatment to report
- TFS: no special treatment to report
- VLC: no special treatment to report
Sweden
- ARN: no special treatment to report
- GOT: no special treatment to report
Switzerland
- GVA: pre-boarding upon request. Reserved area in the lounge
- ZRH: no special treatment
United Kingdom
- ABZ: no special treatment to report
- EDI: no special treatment to report
- LHR: no special treatment to report
NORTH AMERICA
Canada
- YUL: Escort from check-in to lounge upon request. Reserved area in lounge, pre-boarding with escort from lounge to plane
- YYZ: escort on arrival through immigration, consistently offered. / Escort from check-in to lounge and from lounge to airplane
- YQB: escort from check-in to lounge proposed
- YVR: no special treatment to report
USA
- ATL: no special treatment to report (in connection)
- BOS: escort through security from check-in to lounge, pre-boarding, all consistently provided mostly spontaneously, sometimes upon request. A separate room in the AF lounge is also proposed.
- DTW: no special treatment to report (starting from DTW or in connection)
- IAD: escort through security from check-in to lounge upon request, but inconsistently provided. Reserved area at the lounge.
- IAH: no special treatment to report
- JFK (AF only / terminal 1) : reserved table in the dining area of the lounge (upstairs),
- JFK (KL only / terminal 4) : no special treatments to report.
- LAX: no special treatment to report
- ORD: On arrival, escort through immigration (not consistently provided). On departure, escort through security to lounge and from lounge to plane (pre-boarding)
- MSP: no special treatment to report, except one case of special DL Elite VIP treatment with expedited immigration and Porsche transfer to/from lounge (not a regular benefit to expect)
- SEA: pre-boarding with escort to plane
- SFO: reserved area in lounge
Mexico
- MEX (Terminal 1): escort through security to lounge with access to dedicated space. Ride from lounge to gate. Sometimes escort on arrival
CENTRAL & SOUTH AMERICA
- BOG: no special treatment to report
- LIM: escort to lounge, provided spontaneously
- GIG: Pre-boarding upon request.
- GRU: escort in case of short connection upon request, inconsistently provided; as of 02/2024 pre-boarding offered at check-in and provided by gate-staff (inconsistently provided).
- SCL: as of 03/2024 escort to lounge offered at departure check-in, pick-up from lounge and pre-boarding done
- EZE: escort to lounge with special crew lane for immigration provided spontaneously
ASIA / PACIFIC
- BKK: escort through security from check-in to lounge, upon request but inconsistently proposed. In connection : escort in case of short connection (better to request it before departure).
- BLR: escort from lounge to gate, pre-boarding provided
- BOM : escort from plane to immigration, and from checkin to the lounge
- DEL: as of 01/2024 escort upon arrival; proactive pre-departure call to arrange terminal entry via VIP entrance and escort to gate for pre-boarding (if lounge used, offered to pick up for pre-boarding)
- HKG: no special treatment to report.
- HND: Arrival : new 09/2023 = escort through immigration. Departure : escort from check-in desk to private (crew) security, proposed spontaneously
- ICN : no special treatment to report.
- KIX: Arrival : escort through immigration, wait at baggage claim. Departure : escort from check-in desk to lounge All proposed spontaneously
- SIN: no special treatment to report
CARIBBEAN & INDIAN OCEAN
- CUR: no special treatment to report, there is no (sky)priority lane for security or immigration, but escort/short track is available for 100 $.
- HAV: at departure, escort from check in counters until security checks. Pre-boarding offered. No escort at arrival. No reserved space in Lounge.
- FDF: No reserved space in Lounge. Pre-boarding upon request at the gate.
- MRU: escort on arrival through immigration. Unknown for departures (no data point)
- PTP: Reserved table in lounge. Pre-boarding upon request at the lounge with escort from lounge to plane.
- RUN: Pre-boarding proposed at check-in and in the lounge, with escort from lounge to plane. Reserved seats in lounge
- SXM: Escort for incoming transit pax (from/to AF flight) through passport controls and security, pre-boarding pro-actively offered for AF departure
MIDDLE EAST
- AUH : no special treatment to report
- BEY: no special treatment to report
- DXB: escort from check-in to lounge and from lounge to plane, all upon request, consistently provided. Access to the Ahlan lounge (normally reserved for P pax) instead of Skyteam lounge.
- JED: no special treatment to report
- RUH: no special treatment to report
- IST: no special treatment to report
AFRICA
- AGA: escort from check in to lounge and from lounge to aircraft, provided spontaneously
- CAI: no special treatment to report
- CMN: escort on arrival through immigration (not always consistently provided)
- CPT: escort from counter to lounge, provided spontaneously
- JNB: escort from counter to lounge (no fast track at immigration), provided spontaneously
- LOS: no special treatment to report
- RAK: escort on arrival, upon request (not provided on departure)
- RBA: on departure : escort to lounge and to plane, provided spontaneously.
- TUN: escort on arrival through immigration provided. Escort from check-in to lounge provided
- ZNZ: no special treatment to report (not even lounge access)
Flying Blue Platinum Ultimate Status
Dec 2, 2023, 11:23 am
#6556
Join Date: Apr 2005
Programs: Eurostar Carte Blanche, SBB-CFF-FFS GA-AG, SNCF Grand Voyageur LeClub
Posts: 7,848
I am one of those Europeans who carries and uses Amex Plat. Low to mid five figures yearly spend, all private. Can't put work spending on it, but it would at best double it to mid five figures anyway.
I can get all of 750 FB miles for each 1000 spent, hardly worth the bother.
I can get all of 750 FB miles for each 1000 spent, hardly worth the bother.
Ok that's insane. Here in America, in Amex's home market, the benefits are substantial and wildly different. I have the Gold and the Plat.
For the Plat: 5x points for every $ spent, for all airfare booked directly with airlines. All transactions on Amex Travel portal earn 5x also. This is for worldwide transactions. In addition, we regularly receive more than $1000 worth of annual discounts which are very easy to use; these more than pay for the annual fee. This is not counting targeted additional discounts and things (spend $2000 at Zegna, receive 20 000 additional points; earn 5x points at Hugo Boss (up to 500 in spend), for example), which are unlimited. Let's not forget, elite status at hotels; access to DL / Plaza Premium / PP / LH lounges, etc. but you get the idea.
For the Gold: 4x points for every $ spent in restaurants worldwide, and all US supermarkets / grocery stores. Annual discounts up to the annual fee.
With these two, I easily get PAID to use the card each and every year. In addition, with some smart planning and moderately significant spending (my spending levels are very similar to yours), I can easily earn around a quarter of a million - half a million in CC points alone, every year, just from these two cards. Under these circumstances, tell me that transfer partners don't matter. See what I mean? Anyways, my 2 cents.
For the Plat: 5x points for every $ spent, for all airfare booked directly with airlines. All transactions on Amex Travel portal earn 5x also. This is for worldwide transactions. In addition, we regularly receive more than $1000 worth of annual discounts which are very easy to use; these more than pay for the annual fee. This is not counting targeted additional discounts and things (spend $2000 at Zegna, receive 20 000 additional points; earn 5x points at Hugo Boss (up to 500 in spend), for example), which are unlimited. Let's not forget, elite status at hotels; access to DL / Plaza Premium / PP / LH lounges, etc. but you get the idea.
For the Gold: 4x points for every $ spent in restaurants worldwide, and all US supermarkets / grocery stores. Annual discounts up to the annual fee.
With these two, I easily get PAID to use the card each and every year. In addition, with some smart planning and moderately significant spending (my spending levels are very similar to yours), I can easily earn around a quarter of a million - half a million in CC points alone, every year, just from these two cards. Under these circumstances, tell me that transfer partners don't matter. See what I mean? Anyways, my 2 cents.
One post talks about earn and spend possibilities of the Amex Plat card. The European Platinum cards have benefits that are not vastly different from the one in the US (they differ by country in Europe, I can speak for Switzerland and France only). Statement credit with retail chains (Saks there, Globus here), vouchers with airlines, elite status with hotel chains (in fact the SUI card I gives status with more hotel chains than the US card), benefits with car rental agencies (don't think they have that in the US), same lounge access (actually slightly more generous for non-US cards), and one-off promotions from specific brands. Same same largely. On the earnings side, it's 1 USD=1 AMEX point there, it's 1 CHF=1 AMEX point here. The only real difference is the 5x points for purchase of airline tickets - haven't come across that in Europe. In terms of partners where you can exchange points, there are more in the US indeed - larger country, larger economy, more companies. Partners for exchange are always in the country of issuance.
The previous post talks about conversion rates ("I get 750 FB for 1000 EUR Amex spend"). I think the conversion ratio for FB is 3 AMEX points = 2 FB miles. That is the same in Europe and in the US. 1000 USD spent would also give 750 FB miles...
...except that indeed, in the US, if you buy many airline tickets, you rack up those points much faster. So 1000 USD spent on airline tickets suddenly produce 3,333 FB miles.
Hence, if I were to lobby the management of Amex in one of the European countries, I'd ask for them to also give us such a generous points earning scheme as in the US for purchase of airline tickets.
Dec 2, 2023, 11:39 am
#6557
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: HAG
Programs: Der 5* FTL
Posts: 8,270
Well yes and no.
US Amex actually gives 1000FB points for 1000MR points, which are 1000 USD spend as opposed to 1000 EUR spend for NL card, but the bigger difference is that outside of refferal bonuses, and booking via Amex Travel, what you spend is what you earn. Essentially 1000 EUR means 750 FB points (via MR).
However as you say so yourself the earning opportunity in US is massively bigger through the various offers and schemes. I understand very much why CC transfer partnerships are a big driver of decisions for US members, I am trying to ilustrate why the same isn't true for Europe.
FWIW management of Amex can't give you more MR earning, really, as that has to be paid largely from revenue from processing fees, which are heavily limited by EU regulations for consumer cards. One of the reasons why for non-EEA markets, carriers charge OPC, but for EEA markets and consumer cards, they don't (can't)
US Amex actually gives 1000FB points for 1000MR points, which are 1000 USD spend as opposed to 1000 EUR spend for NL card, but the bigger difference is that outside of refferal bonuses, and booking via Amex Travel, what you spend is what you earn. Essentially 1000 EUR means 750 FB points (via MR).
However as you say so yourself the earning opportunity in US is massively bigger through the various offers and schemes. I understand very much why CC transfer partnerships are a big driver of decisions for US members, I am trying to ilustrate why the same isn't true for Europe.
FWIW management of Amex can't give you more MR earning, really, as that has to be paid largely from revenue from processing fees, which are heavily limited by EU regulations for consumer cards. One of the reasons why for non-EEA markets, carriers charge OPC, but for EEA markets and consumer cards, they don't (can't)
Dec 2, 2023, 11:39 am
#6558
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: DTW, IST, ESB
Programs: AF/KLM Platinum, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 430
I believe you are comparing Apples with Oranges.
The previous post talks about conversion rates ("I get 750 FB for 1000 EUR Amex spend"). I think the conversion ratio for FB is 3 AMEX points = 2 FB miles. That is the same in Europe and in the US. 1000 USD spent would also give 750 FB miles...
...except that indeed, in the US, if you buy many airline tickets, you rack up those points much faster. So 1000 USD spent on airline tickets suddenly produce 3,333 FB miles.
The previous post talks about conversion rates ("I get 750 FB for 1000 EUR Amex spend"). I think the conversion ratio for FB is 3 AMEX points = 2 FB miles. That is the same in Europe and in the US. 1000 USD spent would also give 750 FB miles...
...except that indeed, in the US, if you buy many airline tickets, you rack up those points much faster. So 1000 USD spent on airline tickets suddenly produce 3,333 FB miles.
Last edited by ofj; Dec 2, 2023 at 11:46 am
Dec 2, 2023, 11:42 am
#6559
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: DTW, IST, ESB
Programs: AF/KLM Platinum, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 430
Yes - and let me state, I should've been more global in my arguments above. I admit I was more focused on the situation here, viewing through the perspective and lens of a USA resident.
Dec 2, 2023, 11:51 am
#6560
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: France
Programs: LH Senator, AF/KL Platinum Ultimate, Le Club Accor Hotels Diamond, Nordic Choice Hotels Platinum
Posts: 60
Alone the fact not to get an empty neighbor seat makes a huge difference (mainly on KL Embraers, even flying Business); at Lufthansa, even a no-name passenger paying Business Class will get this benefit on similar Bombardier planes. How often I am getting mad in these CityHopper planes, when Business is covering e.g. the first 2 raws, with a total of e.g. 5 passengers, and I am the one to get a neighbor! How can it be possible not to program this benefit in the seat booking system; once an ULTI books a seat, specially in C, the next seat should automatically become unavailable.
The second biggest huge advantage (and probably ranked Nr 1 when having short connections), is that LH is waiting for you with a limousine in front of your arriving plane, to get you straight to the next plane (or to the F lounge when enough time); comparing this to a landing in the B field in AMS / CDG G terminal, and the rush to get a bus etc etc to reach a gate in the main terminals is simply a no-go to offer ULTI loyal passengers travelling every week!
The last one (and probably ranked Nr 1 when having very long connection) is the access to F lounge in all LH hubs (the new one in FRA being superb, as well as the one in MUC). Yes, we have some ULTI area in Paris (the situation in AMS still being a joke after so many years of complains), but this is sooooo far from what you get in the F lounge at LH (and which we would also get at La Premiere lounge if we could access to).
German are cold? May be but for sure not worse than the KL crews on mid / long hauls flights (CityHopper being ways better). But honnestly, I dont care! For me, the 3 points listed above are the one I care (I should then add the real priority lane at LH hubs, as passport control happens in the F lounge).
I seldom post messages in this forum, but reading somehow that HON is not better than ULTI makes me very much questioning if people writing these messages are really experiencing before posting
Dec 2, 2023, 12:23 pm
#6561
Join Date: Mar 2023
Posts: 12
I completely understand that. Although I've never been ULTI, I've read enough on these pages to get a solid idea of what it is about - what's been promised, what's been delivered, what's falling short. Promised things, whether hard or soft benefits, should be honored. I think we can all agree on that.
The issue comes when we look at the competition. What else is there? BA GGL? LH Group HON Circle? the 3 USA programs?
BA - mediocre lounges except Chelsea/CCR (reports are that they still fall short of a true F lounge), no escort or real personalized service on the ground (departure, connecting, arrival). LHR is an inefficient mess and you cannot access any lounge aside from the one in the terminal you're departing from. F is below average (although cheap in cash fares); J depends - club suites are solid, but the old J arrangement is horrid. Customer service is extremely inconsistent and slow; food is meh. Carrier imposed fees are the highest in the industry.
LH Group - only LX and OS J seats are really decent (aside from the few LH planes with seats originally from others); F is somewhat outdated. HON Circle requires outsized flying + spending, and ONLY LH group flights on J / F qualify for HON status. No option of HON lifetime status (unlike others). Service is inconsistent, cold. Unlike their European competition, Miles & More don't have any transfer partners in the US, making it very difficult to pool miles.
SQ PPS Solitaire Club - Only SQ flights in J / F count. Unless one is only flying out of that corner of the globe, a bit useless as a program. F is below average unless it is on the a380. J seat is average.
Legacy USA carriers - all spending based. All invitational. You could spend and still not get the status (I personally have friends who have spent 6 figures only on flights (J / F), just to be told that they don't qualify). Even then, soft benefits can also be inconsistent. Of course, one could try the next tier (DL Diamond / UA 1k / AA Ex Plat Pro) but I am not sure that those are really much better than FB's ULTI. DL miles are worthless; UA almost the same and heading there. AA miles are better, but it's almost exclusively a domestic LCC at this point (food service, lack of international routes or strategy, oddly-placed hubs). Plus, AA doesn't have a lifetime option above Platinum. With all 3, there is very little genuine customer service in the air to begin with. Let's not forget, as a member of their own program, you can't access their lounges unless you have an international itinerary or sitting in J or whatever (the rules vary slightly, but it's the same idea).
So what am I trying to say? Yes, ULTI might be disappointing. Yes, FB can make it better. However, from my research, experience (which is not that much compared to some of you who really fly a ton), I STILL think that FB is worth crediting to on a long-term basis, and that even ULTI is worth it (if one can achieve it organically). When we are discussing a program, I think the overall airline experience matters too. Some airlines can be wonderful, but their FFP program sucks. Or vice versa.
Of course, we are each entitled to our opinions. Just my 2 cents.
The issue comes when we look at the competition. What else is there? BA GGL? LH Group HON Circle? the 3 USA programs?
BA - mediocre lounges except Chelsea/CCR (reports are that they still fall short of a true F lounge), no escort or real personalized service on the ground (departure, connecting, arrival). LHR is an inefficient mess and you cannot access any lounge aside from the one in the terminal you're departing from. F is below average (although cheap in cash fares); J depends - club suites are solid, but the old J arrangement is horrid. Customer service is extremely inconsistent and slow; food is meh. Carrier imposed fees are the highest in the industry.
LH Group - only LX and OS J seats are really decent (aside from the few LH planes with seats originally from others); F is somewhat outdated. HON Circle requires outsized flying + spending, and ONLY LH group flights on J / F qualify for HON status. No option of HON lifetime status (unlike others). Service is inconsistent, cold. Unlike their European competition, Miles & More don't have any transfer partners in the US, making it very difficult to pool miles.
SQ PPS Solitaire Club - Only SQ flights in J / F count. Unless one is only flying out of that corner of the globe, a bit useless as a program. F is below average unless it is on the a380. J seat is average.
Legacy USA carriers - all spending based. All invitational. You could spend and still not get the status (I personally have friends who have spent 6 figures only on flights (J / F), just to be told that they don't qualify). Even then, soft benefits can also be inconsistent. Of course, one could try the next tier (DL Diamond / UA 1k / AA Ex Plat Pro) but I am not sure that those are really much better than FB's ULTI. DL miles are worthless; UA almost the same and heading there. AA miles are better, but it's almost exclusively a domestic LCC at this point (food service, lack of international routes or strategy, oddly-placed hubs). Plus, AA doesn't have a lifetime option above Platinum. With all 3, there is very little genuine customer service in the air to begin with. Let's not forget, as a member of their own program, you can't access their lounges unless you have an international itinerary or sitting in J or whatever (the rules vary slightly, but it's the same idea).
So what am I trying to say? Yes, ULTI might be disappointing. Yes, FB can make it better. However, from my research, experience (which is not that much compared to some of you who really fly a ton), I STILL think that FB is worth crediting to on a long-term basis, and that even ULTI is worth it (if one can achieve it organically). When we are discussing a program, I think the overall airline experience matters too. Some airlines can be wonderful, but their FFP program sucks. Or vice versa.
Of course, we are each entitled to our opinions. Just my 2 cents.
Dec 2, 2023, 12:26 pm
#6562
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: DTW, IST, ESB
Programs: AF/KLM Platinum, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 430
Regarding much of what you've said, I've mentioned briefly above, but here it is - regarding the overall benefits, yes, for HON, you do get good passenger reception on the ground, and access to F lounges. However, again - LH J seats are abysmal. That 2 - 2 - 2 seating is ridiculous in this day and age, at the prices they are charging. F is somewhat also outdated, even though spacious. And, if you qualify for that status to begin with, you're most likely flying F so often that it (personalized ground service) comes included anyhow. Meanwhile, the comparable AF/KLM J seat is very competitive (the newest ones with a door even more so), and LP as we all know beats LH/LX F out of the water. Then, there are other macro considerations - which I've already mentioned above.
One might ask why it matters what an airline offers, when we are simply talking about FFP status. It's because airline status is directly tied to flying on the airline itself, so in this case, everything and all aspects matter. Once we take that into consideration, I don't think that the overall competition is actually that clear cut. THAT's my argument.
Last edited by ofj; Dec 2, 2023 at 12:36 pm
Dec 2, 2023, 12:50 pm
#6563
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: France
Programs: LH Senator, AF/KL Platinum Ultimate, Le Club Accor Hotels Diamond, Nordic Choice Hotels Platinum
Posts: 60
I admit, I have never been HON or ULTI. It's great that you have had the chance to experience both. However, I stand by what I said earlier. Just because I haven't physically experienced both or either, doesn't mean that I am not qualified to make a reasonably educated opinion on this matter. You can't just look at the benefits on paper; that's only a part of what makes a program work or not work for you. Yes, on paper, HON is amazing, much better than ULTI. However, let us not forget - you can only qualify by flying J / F, and only on LH group airlines. That's a huge restricting factor. Meanwhile with ULTI, you can fly economy, even on non-ST airlines, and receive UXP. Thus, HON is significantly harder to achieve, and thus it would be expected that they offer much more benefits.
Regarding much of what you've said, I've mentioned briefly above, but here it is - regarding the overall benefits, yes, for HON, you do get good passenger reception on the ground, and access to F lounges. However, again - LH J seats are abysmal. That 2 - 2 - 2 seating is ridiculous in this day and age, at the prices they are charging. F is somewhat also outdated, even though spacious. And, if you qualify for that status to begin with, you're most likely flying F so often that it (personalized ground service) comes included anyhow. Meanwhile, the comparable AF/KLM J seat is very competitive (the newest ones with a door even more so), and LP as we all know beats LH/LX F out of the water. Then, there are other macro considerations - which I've already mentioned above.
One might ask why it matters what an airline offers, when we are simply talking about FFP status. It's because airline status is directly tied to flying on the airline itself, so in this case, everything and all aspects matter. Once we take that into consideration, I don't think that the overall competition is actually that clear cut. THAT's my argument.
Regarding much of what you've said, I've mentioned briefly above, but here it is - regarding the overall benefits, yes, for HON, you do get good passenger reception on the ground, and access to F lounges. However, again - LH J seats are abysmal. That 2 - 2 - 2 seating is ridiculous in this day and age, at the prices they are charging. F is somewhat also outdated, even though spacious. And, if you qualify for that status to begin with, you're most likely flying F so often that it (personalized ground service) comes included anyhow. Meanwhile, the comparable AF/KLM J seat is very competitive (the newest ones with a door even more so), and LP as we all know beats LH/LX F out of the water. Then, there are other macro considerations - which I've already mentioned above.
One might ask why it matters what an airline offers, when we are simply talking about FFP status. It's because airline status is directly tied to flying on the airline itself, so in this case, everything and all aspects matter. Once we take that into consideration, I don't think that the overall competition is actually that clear cut. THAT's my argument.
=> you for sure don’t become ULTI in only collecting 2 UXP on economy short flights… You have to fly quite massively, exclusively on AFKL metals, to reach this level. In my personal case, I flew more or less the same amount of flights to reach HON at that time, compared to AFKL nowadays.
=> it’s not on paper that HON is amazing ; the points I listed in my first post are resulting from experiences made on weekly bases… They are facts, and not theory.
2-2-2 was as much ridiculous at LH as it has been on AFKL old 777, 380 etc… Yes, LH relaunched some older A340 after the pandemics, while KL is not finished yet with the refurbishment of the old 777 metals. We may simply compare planes of the same age (787 / 350 are in my opinion very comparable between these companies).
Anyway, we obviously have very different opinions; leave it there!
Dec 2, 2023, 12:54 pm
#6564
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: DTW, IST, ESB
Programs: AF/KLM Platinum, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 430
Sorry ofj, but I don’t get your points…
=> you for sure don’t become ULTI in only collecting 2 UXP on economy short flights… You have to fly quite massively, exclusively on AFKL metals, to reach this level. In my personal case, I flew more or less the same amount of flights to reach HON at that time, compared to AFKL nowadays.
Anyway, we obviously have very different opinions; leave it there!
=> you for sure don’t become ULTI in only collecting 2 UXP on economy short flights… You have to fly quite massively, exclusively on AFKL metals, to reach this level. In my personal case, I flew more or less the same amount of flights to reach HON at that time, compared to AFKL nowadays.
Anyway, we obviously have very different opinions; leave it there!
Aside from that, I rest my point here as well. We all have a right to our own opinions!
Dec 2, 2023, 1:25 pm
#6565
Join Date: Mar 2023
Posts: 12
I do respect your opinion. However - you're mistaken here. UXP can be earned on any ST or non - ST partner in any cabin, as long as it is booked directly with AF/KLM. That is NOT exclusively on AFKL metal. Yes of course, in reality, one is not going to repeatedly fly domestic 2 UXP and hope to gain ULTI; that wasn't my argument to begin with. You can even earn UXP on SAF purchases! Good luck doing any of this with HON status.
Aside from that, I rest my point here as well. We all have a right to our own opinions!
Aside from that, I rest my point here as well. We all have a right to our own opinions!
I do also respect your opinion. But I'm sorry to say that I think that by the fact you haven't reach those kind of tier, you do not know enough about the reality of the market here.
Furthermore I wish so much that UXP can only be earned when flying J or F, it would prevent perks to be that ridiculous...
Dec 2, 2023, 2:36 pm
#6566
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: HAG
Programs: Der 5* FTL
Posts: 8,270
I do respect your opinion. However - you're mistaken here. UXP can be earned on any ST or non - ST partner in any cabin, as long as it is booked directly with AF/KLM. That is NOT exclusively on AFKL metal. Yes of course, in reality, one is not going to repeatedly fly domestic 2 UXP and hope to gain ULTI; that wasn't my argument to begin with. You can even earn UXP on SAF purchases! Good luck doing any of this with HON status.
Aside from that, I rest my point here as well. We all have a right to our own opinions!
Aside from that, I rest my point here as well. We all have a right to our own opinions!
Miles.
Having opinions is fine, but, not being HON nor Ulti, I have to agree with the members here - you're basing your opinions on incorrect or irrelevant measures. Like the CC transfer. Like the fact that nobody is going to base any decisions on earning UXP on SH Y. Like the fact that you can earn UXP on AFKL plated codeshares, but on the flipside you can earn HON miles on integrated metal that's marketed by outside airline, so it matters more which market works better for you.
Dec 3, 2023, 12:57 am
#6567
Join Date: Apr 2005
Programs: Eurostar Carte Blanche, SBB-CFF-FFS GA-AG, SNCF Grand Voyageur LeClub
Posts: 7,848
No man; unfortunately I would like to correct you on this - for the US market transferrable points CCs, all of them convert 1 CC point = 1 airline mile. Regardless of the airline, regardless of the bank, regardless of the card. In my scenario described above, I can thus earn 1-2 LP flights' worth of points from those 2 cards alone, annually. In addition, contrary to your statement, the USA-market Plat also offers elite status at 3 car rental companies. The lounge access benefits are equivalent or better than the rest of the world - this has been documented (for example, the Turkish Amex Plat is much worse in this regard). Also, the USA-market card has lower annual fees than the card in other markets.
With the current exchange rate of USD/CHF it's actually even worse. To get 1000 FB miles in the US, I'd need to spend 1,000 USD. To get 1000 FB miles from the Swiss Amex card, I'd need to spend 1,500 CHF = 1,725 USD! For the EUR it's less drastic, but still.
So conversion rates are better AND earning possibilities are better in the US. Benefits are roughly the same, annual fee as well roughly the same when taking historic average exchange rates EUR/CHF/USD.
Thanks for clarifying
Dec 3, 2023, 1:35 am
#6568
Join Date: Apr 2005
Programs: Eurostar Carte Blanche, SBB-CFF-FFS GA-AG, SNCF Grand Voyageur LeClub
Posts: 7,848
I do respect your opinion. However - you're mistaken here. UXP can be earned on any ST or non - ST partner in any cabin, as long as it is booked directly with AF/KLM. That is NOT exclusively on AFKL metal. Yes of course, in reality, one is not going to repeatedly fly domestic 2 UXP and hope to gain ULTI; that wasn't my argument to begin with. You can even earn UXP on SAF purchases! Good luck doing any of this with HON status.
2) You can make HON with only domestic flights, as you can make ULTI with only domestic flights. At least in theory. For ULTI, you require 900 UXP per year = 450 domestic flights per year (@2 UXP each). If you earn them with domestic BJ flights, it's 150 flights (@ 6 UXP each). For HON, you require 6000 HON Circle Points = 150 domestic J class flights per year (@40 HON Points each). Which means: since 450 domestic flights in Y is hardly feasible, one might earn ULTI with domestic flights in J (still bordering the not feasible). Where it takes as many flights as to reach HON. So, yes, "good luck doing any of this with HON status" >> it works.
Aside from that, I rest my point here as well. We all have a right to our own opinions!
- HON is designed to take away the painful parts of travel: the things that waste time (standing in some line), the uncertainty (will I get on that flight or not? Will I make my connection?), the things which are no longer OK when doing it too often (spending time and eating in the Senator lounge). As the pain only gets taken away when one is sure that the "medicine" will be delivered (there is no point in sometimes not letting me stand in line, if I cannot count on it I make plan my time for the case that it won't be possible, leaving me with no time gain at all), HON Circle benefits are delivered more reliably and consistently. Good surprises are rare, as are bad surprised. It gives the customer piece of mind.
- ULTI is designed to make you feel special. It lays on more pomp, more personal touches, and when you have a crew that likes being great to customers, they are REALLY fantastic. I think my top 10 crew experiences of the past couple of years were all on Air France. But my top 10 letdowns were also on Air France. And since the delivery relies so much on the personal engagement of the crew/agent, consistency is not a given. Plus, the benefits are not designed to take away the painful parts of travel: some are (escort at CDG, competent TA team), but others are just to make you feel good (hand-written welcome notes on your seat). It gives the customer a "feel special" sense, but not necessarily piece of mind.
- for HON, booking guarantee for paid and award flights, F class escort and car service irrespective of destination or cabin, staff capacity to deploy to ensure people don't miss their connection, neighbouring seat blocked, access to lounges also after arrival. At LHG, HONs are treated like First Class pax on the ground, not to "give them more luxury", but because that is the best way to deliver those pain-eliminating services (car, FCT, etc). >> all useful, but not necessarily always very nice?
- for ULTI, some crews add the extra effort, sometimes in Y one gets the wine list from J or P, and so on >> all nice, but useful?
Last edited by San Gottardo; Dec 3, 2023 at 2:21 am
Dec 3, 2023, 1:40 am
#6569
Join Date: Apr 2005
Programs: Eurostar Carte Blanche, SBB-CFF-FFS GA-AG, SNCF Grand Voyageur LeClub
Posts: 7,848
Do we all know that? LH probably, but LX? All in all, it's just as good, just in a different way. DIfferent product "spirit", and different strengths and weaknesses. Numerous posts here comparing the three (or four). If you can find them, you'll see that it's not Ritz-Carlton vs. Holiday Inn in the case of AF vs LX. It's more Ritz-Carlton vs. St. Regis.
Of course everybody loves the coquillettes in the CDG Salon La Premire and the transfer service. But that shouldn't cloud a more holistic look at all the other elements.
Of course everybody loves the coquillettes in the CDG Salon La Premire and the transfer service. But that shouldn't cloud a more holistic look at all the other elements.
Dec 3, 2023, 2:13 am
#6570
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: The Netherlands
Programs: FB Ultimate and PFL & ALL Accor Diamond
Posts: 483
The discussion went from the original statement of Ulti not bringing the value it promised (and the ‘service attitude’ to this) to comparing different Ulti like status airlines…
I can’t compare other airlines as when u r Adam based it makes no sense, and to my opinion its also not the point…
We are here talking about Ulti and the benefits it should STRUCTURALLY bring vs what is the reality. There are 1000s of posts here on what not working as promised, and nothing really changed over years except for some lucky hits for some of us occasionally.
Above lack of making it happen fails from the start and there is 0 improvements overall (some plusses, some less perks, but overall no consistency at all).
From what I read, Ulti can learn from other ulti like programs, but before you try to push them to step up the game, let them get the basics right and offer structural loyalty benefits to those who earned them.
I mean setting up an ulti space in the Schengen lounge taking several years ‘yes, we are working on it’ shows the focus and priority of the Ulti program to me.
Ben can try what he wants, and don’t stop…. But the effects are… lets say; ‘limited’
Or maybe, if he wouldn’t try it would be ???
I can’t compare other airlines as when u r Adam based it makes no sense, and to my opinion its also not the point…
We are here talking about Ulti and the benefits it should STRUCTURALLY bring vs what is the reality. There are 1000s of posts here on what not working as promised, and nothing really changed over years except for some lucky hits for some of us occasionally.
Above lack of making it happen fails from the start and there is 0 improvements overall (some plusses, some less perks, but overall no consistency at all).
From what I read, Ulti can learn from other ulti like programs, but before you try to push them to step up the game, let them get the basics right and offer structural loyalty benefits to those who earned them.
I mean setting up an ulti space in the Schengen lounge taking several years ‘yes, we are working on it’ shows the focus and priority of the Ulti program to me.
Ben can try what he wants, and don’t stop…. But the effects are… lets say; ‘limited’
Or maybe, if he wouldn’t try it would be ???