stimpy

No, BHX is served by AF A319/320's.

But the cheap labour force has something to do with labour laws. And more to the point, those airlines can fire staff for poor service much, much easier than EU based airlines, right?

I'm not saying that AF or BA have poor service by the way. Just that SU and AT showed me service at a level above.

orbitmic

I'd say not really. The US has very weak labour laws but very expensive labour, and as far as airlines are concerned pretty appalling service levels. Costa Rica has very protective labour laws but cheap labour. Moreover, if there is any link at all, then the typical trend is that as countries become wealthier, individual income tends to increase, and so does the cost of labour and then employment tends to be more regulated, so if there is any relationship between the two at all, it seems to be the opposite causality from what is often suggested at the moment by Trump and co (I'm not saying that this was the argument you were trying to make).

I think your second point is very theoretical to me. First of all, I am not aware of the likes of AT and SU or for that matter EK, QR, or GA having fired that many people, and when they have I actually do not think that "poor service" is ever the reason. By contrast, so far, the UK is obviously suggested to European labour laws and it has not prevented BA from letting go of many staff members in recent years even as they have made consistent profit, nor has it prevented them from recently unilaterally reducing the salary of their senior LGW crew by a whopping 28%.

So no, all in all, I do not really agree with labour laws having anything to do with the reason why some airlines may have better service than others. I would also add that I have had appalling service on SU many a time so personally my experience has not been as positive as yours on that front (AT I have only flown a few times so can't comment!).

stimpy

My counterpoint on your two issues....

In Europe labor laws are beneficial to unions that wish to take labor action. Thus if they want a pay raise or want to discourage a pay cut, the can take to the streets and shut down not only a business, but even shut down a good portion of a national economy. That power does not exist much in the world outside of the EU. True you can only squeeze so much blood from a turnip and there are financial limits to pay raises, but that power exists.

And as for firing people for poor service, it is an extremely rare event in Europe but not quite so rare in other places. Stewardesses can get fired for aging or gaining weight at some airlines. Or on the opposite side at other airlines they can get fired for dressing too sexy and flirting with the first class customers. Or for simply doing a very poor job. And while most good employees give good service without the threat of losing their job, it is always in the back of their minds when they see a colleague get let go for some reason that would not at all be a fireable offense in Europe. Go chat with EK cabin staff sometime and you'll get an earful about how many people get let go at EK because they did something wrong.

And as far as poor service on any arbitrary airline like SU or AT, we all know that nepotism and favoritism exist in most large organizations where laws do not exist to prevent these things. So yes you can run across such problems from time to time.

orbitmic

Sorry, just not my conception of "poor service".


Yes, that must be why BA just got away with unilateral pay cuts of 28% with threats of redundancy without any compensation for anyone who refused to accept the pay cuts and new work conditions. Nasty lefty unions which traumatise an innocent management board, dictatorship of the proletariat and all that...


I was not referring to anything that struck me as nepotism or favouritism. Just plain vanilla mediocre service. As I said, I can't comment on AT because I do not fly them enough, but I'd say I have taken a good 20 flights with SU in the past 2-3 years (mostly in C/J) and just did not think that the level of service that I got was particularly good on average. Yes, I had a few really nice crew members, but more were indifferent and a few frankly useless.

stimpy

Just an example of the different labour laws. People can get fired for multiple customer complaints too. Or for dressing sloppily or having poor makeup (it's tough for women out there!), or simply if the crew chief thinks they are doing a poor job with the food service. Again, go out for drinks with some EK staff and you'll hear some stories. Ditto for some other airlines I could mention. I've also done that with BA and AF crew and the stories are not at all the same.

orbitmic

Your point was that AT and SU were offering better service than AF, KL, LH, BA, etc because they were not subjected to European labour laws, and you then explained that this was because thanks to not being subject to those labour laws, they can fire people for "bad service". My point is that they are not, and indeed, you provide plenty of examples of people being fired for plenty of things that have nothing to do with poor service. You do mention multiple customer complaints as a reason for losing one's job, and I am saying that this is a negligible source of threat compared to their line manager taking a dislike for them, them putting up some weight, not being as young or as pretty and so on.

And I also simply do not agree with the premise that the service is better on those airlines in the first place. It is nice (I also disagree with people who say that it is "robotic") but not better in my experience (I don't use EK much as I do not like them but I use QR and EY a fair deal).

stimpy

Well that is subjective and no facts I can give will change your mind. But I've seen plenty of other posts on Flyertalk by people who agree that SU's Euro business class service is indeed better than any of the top Euro airlines. And these were from people who had more SU experience than I. So I don't think I'm alone in the woods with my opinion.

As for the other points, for the third time now I'll suggest you go speak to the real experts, the employees, in a setting that will allow them to speak honestly.

orbitmic

Yes, including by myself: better seats, better food, menus, good entertainment, etc. This has nothing to do with the personal component and I do not think that I have met many people who think that SU staff are that great overall. Again, I do not doubt that your experience was very good, I'm very glad that it was. I'm just saying that mine was not, and the many people I know who travel SU frequently certainly do not mention it when talking of airlines with particularly friendly or pleasant crew.


I find it somewhat amusing that you do not see the irony of mentioning one minute that crew can be fired very easily - presumably including for bringing their employer into disrepute and having inappropriate discussions with customers - and then optimistically believing the next minute that you expect them to be able to "speak honestly" about their employers' reason for firing people. (ie it would make it a very direct risk for such employees to denounce their employer's hiring/firing policy as arbitrary and much safer to denounce the victims for their "poor service"?)

And again, in case you did not get it any of the past three times, I just do not think that Middle Eastern airlines, nor for that matter North African have better levels of crew service than European airlines. There is therefore, from my point of view, no variance in service quality to explain and therefore no "cause" that it could possibly have. This is a basic modelling issue.

Anyway, enough OT for me, I'll be happy to come back to the discussion when we return to the question of whether AF are specifically taking care of their elite customers or not and how...

stimpy

Perhaps the fact that you find such a thing impossible is the reason you aren't aware of all the issues I've brought up. Nevertheless they exist.

747400F

Since turning FB Gold - now plat - I have had the personal greeting just after sitting down, both on AF and DL long haul and short haul. Flying KL and UX next week, lets see what happens there.

Goldorak

DL ??? Wow ! It never happened to me (long- or short-haul) even flying J/F, outside the classical welcome and pre-departure drink order (but I have never been greeted by DL as a Skyteam Elite + pax).

For UX, do not have any expectations at all (for anything) and you won't be disappointed

AlicorporateUK

Same here and this includes AF short-haul, too (both C/Y).

G

brunos

I only fly DL J in Asia (e.g. HKG-NRT). But I was greeted personally as FB Gold and asked for my menu choice right after the DL elite+.

Ditto

Only once was greeted by name on a KL flight, the FA came to say that since I am FB gold I can move to the exit row after takeoff.
Was also greeted once on AF J long-haul, where the FA even tried to speak Dutch (with a French accent ^) with me, but that's about it.

Mirk

Since I turned FB gold I observed few changes such as:
With Detla, they are now coming to me near the end of the long-haul flights to thanks me for flying with them. I even had the chance of getting the same invitations as Delta One customers at LHR (aka dedicated security section and arrival lounge !).
With KLM, the FA called me by my name during the service on short-haul while I was in economy.
I did only 2 flights with AF since turning Gold and didn't observed any change.