Bytepusher

If we have any Jazz lurkers they may be able to explain this but I've actually had this happen to me. According to the explaination at the time every flight has to designate a backup airport and YOW-YTZ flights the backup is usually to return to YOW. But I have also gone to YYZ other times...

Hogtowner

>>To bad really since virtually everything the airport's opponents say against it is an outright lie or at least taking liberties with the truth...<<

Pretty sweeping generalization. Care to elaborate? The extra noise and pollution would be minimal or insignificant? The extra congestion of boat traffic in the harbour caused by the bridge won't be a safety issue?

Given the importance of this issue to so many people, a case can be made that this issue should be put to a referendum (for all residents of the mega city, not just those downtown). Those who would be the primary beneficiaries of an expanded Island airport are loud and powerful but not, to my mind, numerically superior. Hence the reason that a referendum will probably never actually happen.

I agree that the history of the portlands/waterfront in Toronto has been one of greed, expediency, lack of planning, jurisdictional bickering etc. The proposed island airport expansion is IMHO just another sorry chapter of the same book.

Shareholder

I watched some of the City Council debate on the airport/bridge, and it passed because the non-city core Aldermen supported and voted for the Pro Airport side and outnumbered the city Aldermen who for the most part opposed it. So hold a referendum, and it would likley be overwhelmingly in favour of the airport, not against it. The major opponents are the vociferous residents who inhabit those horrendous condos, and of course the Island residents.

As for lies and misstatements of the Anti Airport people, aside from accidents, claimed that airports attract warehouses and so the area would be turned from residential to commercial! As for noise from additional flights, a TTC bus makes more noise and has a higher decibel level than a DASH8/400. And there are already more buses along Lakeshore Blvd than there will ever be hourly flights.

While I do think building that wall of condos was a mistake, it is done and just needs to be more humanized. Tearing them down to build a park is a nice idea, but we already have more parkland 15-minutes away by ferry than comprise Central Park in NYC. Chicago needed to clear its waterfront to create a park since it did not have an island as we do. Toronto needed tens of thousands of people living in the city core, and it now has that, with more to come.

Bytepusher

The extra noise and pollution would be minimal or insignificant?

Well there's a perfect example right there. In order for there to be "extra" pollution the airplane option needs to be more polluting than the alternative. Now I think we can safely assume that if flights aren't available from this airport the travellers aren't going to sit on their hands at home, they're still going to make the trip and that means DRIVING, at least as far as YYZ but in lots of cases all the way to the destination, in a huge percentage of cases a lone driver in a car or a taxi with one passenger. Now a half loaded Q400 burns, on average between 7 and 8 litres of fuel for to carry a passenger 100km, better than the highway milage of a huge percentage of cars on the road. Now we have to assume that fuel burned directly correlates to pollution but I think that's a fair approximation in this case. If the load factor goes above 50% then the plane wins for fuel efficency/polution per passenger...

It's not airport or nothing it's airport or car trips along the Gardiner and the cars will produce more ground level ozone...

Shareholder

It looks like the days are numbered for the Island Airport, given yesterday's overwhelming 32:12 vote against building a fixed link/bridge to facilitate the Deluce expansion. From today's TORONTO STAR:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?E16F156B6

Last week Paul Martin said he will defer to the decision of local council. Ottawa has two more permits to issue relating to the bridge, as well as being the ultimate boss of the Toronto Port Authority. Look for a wholesale dumping of the senior exec and board if their position does not change, and they do not drop the threat of a $1 billion law suit. Look for heads to roll in any case.

Here's a good set of background stories:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?Y27F116B6

[Edited to adjust links]



[This message has been edited by Shareholder (edited Dec 04, 2003).]

Shareholder

Newsworld is reporting that Colinette will recommend his department follow the wishes of Toronto City Council and not issue required permits for the bridge. Also instruct TPA to cool it on the law suit front?

why fly

3 years from today, we will be debating this again, until the bridge is built. Just build the bridge and get on with it. At least once the bridge is built the complaining will be over. :

Hogtowner

If you were a betting man, you'd have to say that this makes any chance of the bridge getting built seem more and more remote.

I don't think slaphead will do anything before he gets the boot from cabinet. More likely, his successor will have a word in the ear of the TPA.

One thing Miller should do now is keep the necessary feet to the fire to get the rail link to Pearson from Union up and running. Once construction on that starts, there is almost no justification for the Island Airport at all (except perhaps for med evac and private pilots).

Simon

This may have already been posted in another thread, but it's quite interesting indeed that on the eve of the election, AC Jazz publicly requested permission to fly RJs in and out of the airport.

This was at the time when Hall & Miller were saying that ultimately jets were going to come and so the fixed link should be rejected.

Regco or whatever they are called only planned to fly props in and out, but only if there is a link.

Jazz says "jets". Provides ammunition to the anti-bridge crowd. Bridge gets cancelled. Regco goes away. YYZ market does NOT gain new competitor.

Hmmmm.

Simon

Shareholder

Hmmm, you think so, Simon? Two birds with one threat! Why Fly, guess this is another thing we'll have to disagree about. The bridge will never get built in my lifetime, may in yours. While I disagreed with the campaign ads Miller used [waves of 737 jets over the Toronto waterfront] and the general domination of public meetings by the anti-airport folks, I am pretty neutral to the issue. I really don't see increasing prop-jets as a threat to the future of the Island, or neighbouring condos -- hmm, doesn't ML live down there? -- but rationality was never a fixture of this debate.

One of the "threats" from the other side was thought to be Bombardier's refusal to sell some of its Downsview land to be used for housing. Yesterday the company agreed to do so. Of course, one of the main points raised by the pro-bridge brigade was the threat that Bombardier would have to shut down its DASH8/400 line, and that Deluce's order would keep it going. I think that aircraft is doomed no matter what, and the plant will be transitioned based on the future or CRJs, which this plant also does component work on.

Since moving to Toronto, and living in the city centre, I have still never flown anywhere from the Island Airport, preferring instead to just hop on VIARail to Ottawa or Montreal. Part of the problem is the outrageous fees and taxes which often double the ticket price and make taking VIA1 a bargain.

YOWkid

Nice analysis Simon! A+ for that! (But *******s for screwing it up for those who would love to see the bridge!)

Bytepusher

For the record, Hall was pro bridge, Miller alone was anti. He only got 44% of the vote and while I'm inclined to agree that in our system that's a mandate it still rankles that EVERY other member of the party he's affiliated with is screaming blue murder about proportional representation...

LeSabre74

Which would be real shame. I know many would disagree, but the Dash is a better plane than the CRJ (especially in its evolved Q400 form)and some routes just don't require jet service. I'd hate to see all turboprops come from Brazil.

Bytepusher

The best days for this airport were in the late 90's, time was I could leave my house at 6:45AM and be at my desk at Kent and Laurier by 9:15 pretty reliably. Can't do that with VIA, I love that VIA1 experience and will opt for it over YYZ any day even though it usually means an extra night away from home but 2.5 hours in only mild discomfort from YTZ trumps 4+ hours in even the VIA1 ride (and frankly since these days the express is so crowded it ain't always so comfortable. Most times you could get a ticket for $99 bucks with few restrictions because AC was driving VistaJet and Greyhound out of business. Even until fairly recently as airport travel experiences go it was a huge improvement over YYZ, because you really could get to the terminal 15 minutes before flight time and still make the flight with time to pop upstairs for a cuppa, but Jazz has slowly been killing it and the longer cutoff hasn't helped. I expect now they will not so quietly announce shutting the operation completely to coincide with the opening of T1-New in April.

Bytepusher

Or France, don't forget ATR (as much as I try to).

I certainly didn't mind the DH1, my first year as Elite I qualified on 80+ legs almost entirely flow on Dashes.

Bombardier won't close Downsview, they need a footprint in Canada outside Quebec and North Bay doesn't qualify and although things aren't looking that great for the Q series right now I just can't believe that at some point a lot of operators aren't gonna wake up and realize that they are much cheaper to run than RJs and the tide will turn again.