AC Long-haul Fleet Deployment

Old Jul 27, 22, 9:06 pm
  #31  
 
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Originally Posted by StuMcIlwain View Post
International business travel is still way down while international leisure travel has exploded. AC needs to fly enough flights into LHR to keep their slots*, but without business travel, demand is likely down overall, so it makes sense that they are using smaller aircraft for LHR. Also, I don't think the airlines expected that leisure travel would rebound as quickly as it has.
I fly YYZ<->LHR regularly, and up until very recently this route has been very busy in J all year. So busy that even with my flight pass that books in D, I struggle getting the flights I want even when I book weeks in advance (very rarely had that problem pre-COVID). Up until April or so, that was because they were only flying 1 flight a day, and then they added another flight, but J was still consistently rammed. They only returned the third flight last month, and even then it was a nightmare a couple of weeks ago finding availability in D. I noticed recently in ExpertFlyer that theres lots more availability in J this week onwards probably more business people on holiday as we approach August? Business grinds to a halt in Europe in August.
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Old Jul 28, 22, 5:07 am
  #32  
 
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Originally Posted by SuperCargo View Post
I noticed recently in ExpertFlyer that theres lots more availability in J this week onwards probably more business people on holiday as we approach August? Business grinds to a halt in Europe in August.
That may be part of it. Also holidays in most US states are coming to a close and, even here in Canada, the busiest of the busy season is winding down. So hopefully things are beginning to normalize a little.
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Old Jul 28, 22, 9:03 am
  #33  
 
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Originally Posted by Adam Smith View Post
Why? AC maintained a fleet of only 8 333s for nearly 20 years before expanding it, and for over a decade after they ditched the last of the A340s. The 788 has more economies of scale with the 789 than the 333 had with anything else during that decade, so the incremental cost of having it has not necessarily been outrageous.

The 788 may have not been exactly what AC expected from a performance perspective, whether in absolute terms or compared to the 789, but that doesn't mean they regret ordering it.

They've frequently used the 788 to open up new routes and see how demand shakes out, in addition to filling in spots in the schedule where the 788 is a better fit than a larger or smaller aircraft, whether that be on a TATL route for a short period of time, doing some of the TCONs, etc.
The A333 is the biggest model of the A330 while the 788 is the smallest, making that comparison a bit apples and oranges. The 789 is also a better performer than the 788's (especially the early ones). The incremental cost associated with the flying the 789 isn't that great compared to the 788, and it has a greater number of seats (obviously) that make it a better generator of revenue than the 788. Even if those seats remain empty, it doesn't cost that much more to fly a 789, and now AC is in a situation where it can likely fill the seats on the routes (the 789 also hauls more cargo). Boeing has gone on to try and make the present 788 more like the 789 and 78J in terms of how it is built.

I said in retrospect, not at the time they were ordered. The greater number of sales of the 789 over the 788 reflects its better performance and the small incremental cost of flying it. Yes the 788 didn't meet expectations - there are likely a fair number of carriers who, if they were ordering today, would not order the 788. The only two carriers that have recently placed significant 788 orders (more than 1 frame) after bringing the 789 in to service (American and EL AL). There are only 24 788 orders since 2018 which really reflects the advantage the 789 has over its smaller sibling.
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Old Jul 28, 22, 9:36 am
  #34  
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Originally Posted by EdmFlyBoi View Post
The A333 is the biggest model of the A330 while the 788 is the smallest, making that comparison a bit apples and oranges.
No, it's not. My comment had nothing to do with bigger or smaller, it was about the economics of operating a small fleet of aircraft. AC is a business, and ultimately this comes down to profitability. To say that AC would have ordered only 789s and no 788s would require that having eight 789s has been less profitable than having eight more 789s.

The 789 is also a better performer than the 788's (especially the early ones). The incremental cost associated with the flying the 789 isn't that great compared to the 788, and it has a greater number of seats (obviously) that make it a better generator of revenue than the 788. Even if those seats remain empty, it doesn't cost that much more to fly a 789, and now AC is in a situation where it can likely fill the seats on the routes (the 789 also hauls more cargo). Boeing has gone on to try and make the present 788 more like the 789 and 78J in terms of how it is built.

I said in retrospect, not at the time they were ordered. The greater number of sales of the 789 over the 788 reflects its better performance and the small incremental cost of flying it. Yes the 788 didn't meet expectations - there are likely a fair number of carriers who, if they were ordering today, would not order the 788. The only two carriers that have recently placed significant 788 orders (more than 1 frame) after bringing the 789 in to service (American and EL AL). There are only 24 788 orders since 2018 which really reflects the advantage the 789 has over its smaller sibling.
No one is disputing that the 789 is a superior aircraft to the 788 for the vast majority of airlines' needs, including AC's.

But the incremental cost to operate a 789 over a 788 is not zero. If there are routes that have demand to fill a 788 but not a 789, flying a 788 will be more profitable on a per-segment basis.

Then it becomes a question of whether the overhead costs of maintaining a separate fleet outweigh the savings that can be achieved on individual segments. Because AC operates a sizeable fleet of 789s, the marginal cost of the 788 sub-fleet is likely low, and there may have been limited economies of scale in buying more 789s.

Nothing you've said suggests that the 788 doesn't have a niche within the portfolio where it's not the more profitable alternative.
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Old Jul 28, 22, 10:48 am
  #35  
 
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Originally Posted by Adam Smith View Post
Nothing you've said suggests that the 788 doesn't have a niche within the portfolio where it's not the more profitable alternative.
Actually the 24 orders of the 788 since 2018 would suggest it doesn't.
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Old Jul 28, 22, 11:00 am
  #36  
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Originally Posted by EdmFlyBoi View Post
Actually the 24 orders of the 788 since 2018 would suggest it doesn't.
No, they don't. They only suggest that the 789 is the generally superior aircraft for most missions, not that the 788 has no place in a fleet, or that an airline that ordered 788s wishes it had 789s instead.
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Old Jul 28, 22, 2:03 pm
  #37  
 
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Originally Posted by EdmFlyBoi View Post
Actually the 24 orders of the 788 since 2018 would suggest it doesn't.
...compared to 41 orders for the 787-10 in the same time period, sure.

It's almost like there are specific use cases for each model.
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