Woman mistakes Preferred seat UG for biz class UG then is removed from AC flight
Jul 26, 2019, 7:30 am
#61
Join Date: Jun 2016
Programs: air miles
Posts: 285
Edited to Simplify:
She is from small village NWT, and a Dene. She comes from a culture different from ours. I learnt some time ago that one must not talk to northern community First Nations people in the same abrupt manner as we talk to each other in a big city like Toronto, as our tone and body language can be interpreted as offensive and rude. It's no different than dealing with some Asian cultures like the Japanese or Thais where it is inappropriate when dealing with customers to raise one's voice or to use language that is overly aggressive or disrespectful.
My point here, is that the FA probably did not appreciate this person's background. Now, before anyone says, boohoo it's Canada and the FA shouldn't have to accommodate such things, please keep in mind that the destination was Yellowknife deep in First Nations territory/land and that their culture prevails. I believe that this is a misunderstanding caused in large part by not acting accordingly when dealing with a First Nation's person and expect that had a FA or GA with more experience of working flights into First Nation destinations been faced with this situation, we would not have had this result.
This pax most likely did not have much experience in the fast paced, "in your face" culture of the south, and the onus was on the customer facing person (the FA) to be prepared for that. Please take this into consideration before casting stones at the woman.
She is from small village NWT, and a Dene. She comes from a culture different from ours. I learnt some time ago that one must not talk to northern community First Nations people in the same abrupt manner as we talk to each other in a big city like Toronto, as our tone and body language can be interpreted as offensive and rude. It's no different than dealing with some Asian cultures like the Japanese or Thais where it is inappropriate when dealing with customers to raise one's voice or to use language that is overly aggressive or disrespectful.
My point here, is that the FA probably did not appreciate this person's background. Now, before anyone says, boohoo it's Canada and the FA shouldn't have to accommodate such things, please keep in mind that the destination was Yellowknife deep in First Nations territory/land and that their culture prevails. I believe that this is a misunderstanding caused in large part by not acting accordingly when dealing with a First Nation's person and expect that had a FA or GA with more experience of working flights into First Nation destinations been faced with this situation, we would not have had this result.
This pax most likely did not have much experience in the fast paced, "in your face" culture of the south, and the onus was on the customer facing person (the FA) to be prepared for that. Please take this into consideration before casting stones at the woman.
Her facebook post mentions that the student group returned home with a "William", who is William, are they another chaperone? If so than the students DID NOT return back to Yellowknife un-chaperoned. Are they a student? If so why mention it in the FB post as if the group was safe under his control.
the story deepens
Last edited by JustSomeGuy1978; Jul 26, 2019 at 7:42 am
Jul 26, 2019, 8:07 am
#62
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Iqaluit
Programs: Programs? I don't need no stinking programs
Posts: 1,194
Oh boy. As soon as I read the linked news story and saw that the pax were indigenous people from NWT, I wondered how long it would be before that came into the discussion...
I can quite readily believe that these people genuinely had no idea what either "preferred seats" or "business class" were, and that "those big seats up front" seemed like a reasonable description of the latter; that whoever tried to explain it to them did a poor job; that if the FA was in any way abrupt or giving them a hard time, they would have got the impression that they were being short-changed or talked down to because of being indigenous (and given the typical everyday experiences of indigenous people in northern Canada when dealing with non-indigenous people, this isn't a stretch or "playing the race card" at all); and that the whole thing turned into a heated altercation - probably more heated than the pax are admitting - because neither side knew how to de-escalate.
And the chaperoning issue seems like a red herring. I see the function of a chaperone as having less to do with sitting next to the kids on the plane (where they're all contained in one place and have fairly limited opportunities for getting lost/hurt/in serious trouble) than keeping an eye on them when they're at the hotel or wandering around in public, so I don't see anything inappropriate about the chaperones wanting to treat themselves to a bit of extra comfort on the flight, which is essentially "down time" for them. (Maybe if they were spending $600 each out of school funds on actual LMUs, that would be objectionable.) As for never wanting an individual like this chaperoning your kid, that's maybe a reasonable reaction if you live in a big city and the person is a total stranger. But in a community of several hundred people, nobody is a total stranger, and if you're going to disqualify people who post vulgar over-the-top rants on Facebook - a favourite pastime in the north - there aren't going to be many potential chaperones left.
In my experience, that's a lot of presuming.
I can quite readily believe that these people genuinely had no idea what either "preferred seats" or "business class" were, and that "those big seats up front" seemed like a reasonable description of the latter; that whoever tried to explain it to them did a poor job; that if the FA was in any way abrupt or giving them a hard time, they would have got the impression that they were being short-changed or talked down to because of being indigenous (and given the typical everyday experiences of indigenous people in northern Canada when dealing with non-indigenous people, this isn't a stretch or "playing the race card" at all); and that the whole thing turned into a heated altercation - probably more heated than the pax are admitting - because neither side knew how to de-escalate.
And the chaperoning issue seems like a red herring. I see the function of a chaperone as having less to do with sitting next to the kids on the plane (where they're all contained in one place and have fairly limited opportunities for getting lost/hurt/in serious trouble) than keeping an eye on them when they're at the hotel or wandering around in public, so I don't see anything inappropriate about the chaperones wanting to treat themselves to a bit of extra comfort on the flight, which is essentially "down time" for them. (Maybe if they were spending $600 each out of school funds on actual LMUs, that would be objectionable.) As for never wanting an individual like this chaperoning your kid, that's maybe a reasonable reaction if you live in a big city and the person is a total stranger. But in a community of several hundred people, nobody is a total stranger, and if you're going to disqualify people who post vulgar over-the-top rants on Facebook - a favourite pastime in the north - there aren't going to be many potential chaperones left.
In my experience, that's a lot of presuming.
Jul 26, 2019, 10:56 am
#63
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: トロント
Programs: IHG Gold
Posts: 4,820
Air Canada carries 60 million pax per year, or over 160,000 per day.
How many of these 160,000 per day get removed from a flight by the FA's? Anyone have the stats? My guess is very few. That's a lot of passengers who fly, uneventfully from A to B. Just sayin....
How many of these 160,000 per day get removed from a flight by the FA's? Anyone have the stats? My guess is very few. That's a lot of passengers who fly, uneventfully from A to B. Just sayin....
Jul 27, 2019, 5:20 am
#64
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Ontario, Canada
Programs: Aeroplan, IHG, Enterprise, Avios, Nexus
Posts: 8,355
Edited to Simplify:
She is from small village NWT, and a Dene. She comes from a culture different from ours. I learnt some time ago that one must not talk to northern community First Nations people in the same abrupt manner as we talk to each other in a big city like Toronto, as our tone and body language can be interpreted as offensive and rude. It's no different than dealing with some Asian cultures like the Japanese or Thais where it is inappropriate when dealing with customers to raise one's voice or to use language that is overly aggressive or disrespectful.
My point here, is that the FA probably did not appreciate this person's background. Now, before anyone says, boohoo it's Canada and the FA shouldn't have to accommodate such things, please keep in mind that the destination was Yellowknife deep in First Nations territory/land and that their culture prevails. I believe that this is a misunderstanding caused in large part by not acting accordingly when dealing with a First Nation's person and expect that had a FA or GA with more experience of working flights into First Nation destinations been faced with this situation, we would not have had this result.
This pax most likely did not have much experience in the fast paced, "in your face" culture of the south, and the onus was on the customer facing person (the FA) to be prepared for that. Please take this into consideration before casting stones at the woman.
She is from small village NWT, and a Dene. She comes from a culture different from ours. I learnt some time ago that one must not talk to northern community First Nations people in the same abrupt manner as we talk to each other in a big city like Toronto, as our tone and body language can be interpreted as offensive and rude. It's no different than dealing with some Asian cultures like the Japanese or Thais where it is inappropriate when dealing with customers to raise one's voice or to use language that is overly aggressive or disrespectful.
My point here, is that the FA probably did not appreciate this person's background. Now, before anyone says, boohoo it's Canada and the FA shouldn't have to accommodate such things, please keep in mind that the destination was Yellowknife deep in First Nations territory/land and that their culture prevails. I believe that this is a misunderstanding caused in large part by not acting accordingly when dealing with a First Nation's person and expect that had a FA or GA with more experience of working flights into First Nation destinations been faced with this situation, we would not have had this result.
This pax most likely did not have much experience in the fast paced, "in your face" culture of the south, and the onus was on the customer facing person (the FA) to be prepared for that. Please take this into consideration before casting stones at the woman.
Jul 27, 2019, 9:04 am
#65
Join Date: May 2012
Location: BKK/SIN/YYZ/YUL
Programs: DL, AC, Bonvoy, Accor, Hilton
Posts: 2,924
When you grab a beaver by the tail. don't be surprised to get bitten.
As an aside, AC needs to get a hold of this thing before it grows legs.
Jul 27, 2019, 4:35 pm
#66
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: トロント
Programs: IHG Gold
Posts: 4,820
No it is not, but as the well written explanation above explained, these types of misunderstandings can and do occur. We do not have a factual third party account of the events that led up to the confrontation, but I again emphasize that the manner in which we talk with First Nations people can directly influence the outcome. I suppose this is one of those things one has to experience first hand. To put it in a non First Nation's perspective, it's similar to the way elderly or the disabled can be treated; in a condescending manner where they are spoken to as incompetent children. bereft of cognitive ability. It should not come as a surprise to anyone, that based upon our national history, why these people can be sensitive. Sorry to say, but AC personnel have a history of being disrespectful and we have seen it play out so many times before, especially with those who are perceived as being in the lower end of the power spectrum.
When you grab a beaver by the tail. don't be surprised to get bitten.
As an aside, AC needs to get a hold of this thing before it grows legs.
When you grab a beaver by the tail. don't be surprised to get bitten.
As an aside, AC needs to get a hold of this thing before it grows legs.
Jul 28, 2019, 3:43 pm
#67
Join Date: May 2012
Location: BKK/SIN/YYZ/YUL
Programs: DL, AC, Bonvoy, Accor, Hilton
Posts: 2,924
The lady you refer to has a facebook page like a billion other people. This doesn't make her the grand dame of social media. Again, I suggest that before judging the woman, take into account that from her small northern experience and culture, having someone bark orders or speak in a dismissive tone, as some AC employees are apt to do, is a red flag. Keep in mind, that it's her country, her destination, and it is up to us to understand and respect that and to adapt our way of communicating. Cultural arrogance often has the negative outcome of confrontation. Sadly, most Canadians still don't understand this.
Jul 28, 2019, 5:57 pm
#68
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No, I am not saying to treat them as helpless. However, as anyone who has negotiated contracts with First Nations, or worked with them will advise, there is a way to talk to them. And yes, it requires a slight change in the typical mannerisms and methodologies of big city southern Canadians. All I can do is tell you the reality.
The lady you refer to has a facebook page like a billion other people. This doesn't make her the grand dame of social media. Again, I suggest that before judging the woman, take into account that from her small northern experience and culture, having someone bark orders or speak in a dismissive tone, as some AC employees are apt to do, is a red flag. Keep in mind, that it's her country, her destination, and it is up to us to understand and respect that and to adapt our way of communicating. Cultural arrogance often has the negative outcome of confrontation. Sadly, most Canadians still don't understand this.
The lady you refer to has a facebook page like a billion other people. This doesn't make her the grand dame of social media. Again, I suggest that before judging the woman, take into account that from her small northern experience and culture, having someone bark orders or speak in a dismissive tone, as some AC employees are apt to do, is a red flag. Keep in mind, that it's her country, her destination, and it is up to us to understand and respect that and to adapt our way of communicating. Cultural arrogance often has the negative outcome of confrontation. Sadly, most Canadians still don't understand this.
Jul 29, 2019, 12:50 am
#69
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Seat 1A
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Posts: 4,124
On Westjet, regular Economy flyers get upgraded into the "Westjet Plus" cabin when they ask for "one of those bigger seats up front".
However, on Air Canada, they only get upgraded to a "preferred seat" within the same economy cabin.
Perhaps it's time that Air Canada needs to make it clear to their FOTSG customers that "the seat has more legroom but is still in economy class, if you want business class, it will be $_____ more".
However, on Air Canada, they only get upgraded to a "preferred seat" within the same economy cabin.
Perhaps it's time that Air Canada needs to make it clear to their FOTSG customers that "the seat has more legroom but is still in economy class, if you want business class, it will be $_____ more".
Jul 29, 2019, 3:58 am
#70
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Halifax
Programs: AC SE100K, Marriott Lifetime Platinum Elite. NEXUS
Posts: 4,574
On Westjet, regular Economy flyers get upgraded into the "Westjet Plus" cabin when they ask for "one of those bigger seats up front".
However, on Air Canada, they only get upgraded to a "preferred seat" within the same economy cabin.
Perhaps it's time that Air Canada needs to make it clear to their FOTSG customers that "the seat has more legroom but is still in economy class, if you want business class, it will be $_____ more".
However, on Air Canada, they only get upgraded to a "preferred seat" within the same economy cabin.
Perhaps it's time that Air Canada needs to make it clear to their FOTSG customers that "the seat has more legroom but is still in economy class, if you want business class, it will be $_____ more".
An article made it clear that the PAX usually flys WestJet. I would assume that means she knows what the WestJet words mean; indeed she did get what the WS phrasing would give her.
If she wanted the different product Air Canada offers, unavailable to WS flyers, she should have used different words to ask for it.
Now, I often say "up front" when referring to J, in the context of standby availability and such. The people I use that with know I'm SE, and maybe because of that know if not bother asking about preferred seats and since I just get those. Or maybe because I'm white.
I've never had confusion, but they are very careful to parrot back more precise language, so maybe there has been confusion and a rapid high bandwidth conversation between jargon users happened and the confusion fixed and forgotten in an instant. So I use vague slang, and they confirm with exact jargon. I also know the exact jargon, communication works.
There are probably linguistic theories here I don't know the names too at play.
For sure there was a miscommunication, and probably because of lazy use of language (which everyone does always). PAX did not pick up on the (suspected) exact response which could have clarified things, and did not verify their BP. The fault is theirs.
Using jargon or slang when not in the club (that is, frequent fliers, not "white") has its risks.