Air Canada OTP Getting Worse?
Feb 18, 2019, 2:58 am
#91
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 57
My recent trip on AC was brutal. Dec 30 YYZ to FRA was 4 hours late. Missed my connection to BCN. Feb 15, MAD to YYZ AC837 was cancelled, rebooked as AC2063 the next day, which was 90 minutes late departing. Missed my connection to YHZ. Rebooked on a later flight AC624, was late again with a 2 hour delay. Arrived at YHZ at 1:30 am.
Feb 18, 2019, 4:11 am
#92
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 6,222
I understand its winter and the delays that can cause. I have been monitoring the abysmal OTP of AC 063 (YVR-ICN) and it seems to be delayed an hour or more pretty much every single day (5 hours yesterday).
Then I look at the inbound and notice that for today anyway, the inbound is to arrive in YVR at 10:40 and AC 63 is scheduled to depart 12:05.
Assuming the inbound actually lands on time, in what universe will it happen for AC to : i) disembark a fully-loaded 789 (298 PAX plus crew) ii) get the bird cleaned, iii) fix any maintenance issues, including 15 minutes per deflated seat iv) get it fully catered v) Get the crew on board and ready vi) fully board the plane and vii) push back..... all in 1 hour and 25 minutes???? The departure time of 12:05 doesn't stand a chance.
Boarding time is listed at 11:20 am. The inbound arrives at 10:40 am.... So 40 minutes to complete steps i to v above just seems unrealistic. If the plane arrive 15 minutes 'late' (ie still 'On Time" by AC standards), that leaves only 25 minutes to complete steps i to v above.
Is seems to me it was not always like this...
Is AC's dismal OTP simply a result of their hyper-active schedule??
Then I look at the inbound and notice that for today anyway, the inbound is to arrive in YVR at 10:40 and AC 63 is scheduled to depart 12:05.
Assuming the inbound actually lands on time, in what universe will it happen for AC to : i) disembark a fully-loaded 789 (298 PAX plus crew) ii) get the bird cleaned, iii) fix any maintenance issues, including 15 minutes per deflated seat iv) get it fully catered v) Get the crew on board and ready vi) fully board the plane and vii) push back..... all in 1 hour and 25 minutes???? The departure time of 12:05 doesn't stand a chance.
Boarding time is listed at 11:20 am. The inbound arrives at 10:40 am.... So 40 minutes to complete steps i to v above just seems unrealistic. If the plane arrive 15 minutes 'late' (ie still 'On Time" by AC standards), that leaves only 25 minutes to complete steps i to v above.
Is seems to me it was not always like this...
Is AC's dismal OTP simply a result of their hyper-active schedule??
AC made a decision several years ago to increase fleet utilization. I remember reading that they were hoping to average 14 to 16 hours of utilization per day for the 787 fleet rather than the typical 11 to 12 hours, which was considered good for a fleet at the time. So now instead of having one plane cycle back and forth between Toronto and Europe with several hours between flights, the plane lands in Toronto and leaves again almost immediately for Asia (or wherever). The consequences are obvious.
As long ago as 2002-ish even the SE desk insisted to me that that a flight would depart at its scheduled time 1 minute hence even though there was no plane at the gate.
Later that same day 2 gate agents tried to convince me they could unload, groom, cater and fully reload an A330 in 19 minutes.
In each case it was because that's what the computer told them, which apparently meant it was an unalterale fact.
So no, if they haven't figured it out in almost 2 decades it seems unlikely they ever will.
Last edited by KenHamer; Feb 18, 2019 at 4:25 am
Feb 18, 2019, 5:37 am
#94
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada
Programs: UA*1K MM SK EBG LATAM BL
Posts: 23,314
My recent trip on AC was brutal. Dec 30 YYZ to FRA was 4 hours late. Missed my connection to BCN. Feb 15, MAD to YYZ AC837 was cancelled, rebooked as AC2063 the next day, which was 90 minutes late departing. Missed my connection to YHZ. Rebooked on a later flight AC624, was late again with a 2 hour delay. Arrived at YHZ at 1:30 am.
Feb 18, 2019, 8:46 am
#95
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: YYC
Programs: AC 50k 1MM, Marriott LT Titanium Elite
Posts: 3,402
If you flew transatlantic, you're pilots either came from the hotel or deadheaded in from YVR.
I flew YVR-YYZ last year. Departed late because pilots were deadheading in from YYC.AC i
YYC weather was less than ideal.
Maybe if we had a crew pairing thread it would help shed light on some of these issues.
I flew YVR-YYZ last year. Departed late because pilots were deadheading in from YYC.AC i
YYC weather was less than ideal.
Maybe if we had a crew pairing thread it would help shed light on some of these issues.
The Swiss have a saying: if you miss a meeting in Switzerland because a train is late, it is not your fault. If you miss a meeting because a train is late in Germany, it is your fault.
This is Germany people. And the train is AC. Pilots should know that.
Feb 18, 2019, 9:25 am
#97
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: YYC
Programs: AC 50k 1MM, Marriott LT Titanium Elite
Posts: 3,402
So you are a pilot, and you have a YVR-YYC flight to captain YYC-FRA. And it is -25 and snowing in Calgary. Scheduling gives you a flight scheduled to land in YYC 1 hour before your departure. And you just say: "OK"??? Maybe you do. But to me that just says 2 groups have a problem (pilots and crew scheduling).
Feb 18, 2019, 11:53 am
#98
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: YVR
Programs: UA Premier Platinum
Posts: 3,759
Love the AC rolling delays. 10:50 announcement "maintenance is onboard". Email alert that scheduled departure of 10:45 is delayed to... 10:55. I'll be impressed if this flight pushes back before noon.
Feb 18, 2019, 4:26 pm
#99
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 57
AC gave us a pamphlet at the gate describing what they will do for the passengers of the cancelled flight and mentioned that we may be entitled to the 600 Euros compensation. But not a single word on how to make the claim. Talk about being disingenuous!
Feb 18, 2019, 6:36 pm
#100
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 8,009
Crew sched will block off the required number of seats for deadheading crew.
If a d/h crew day of flight says we need to be on the flight earlier in order to maintain OTP on the operating segment.
The result, quite probably VDB and/or IDB on the crews new flight.
There are consequences to all decisions.
Some will be answered in an OTP thread.
Some will be answered in an VDB/IDB thread.
Some will be answered in an profit/loss thread.
Some will be answered in a manager has been replaced thread.
Some will be answered in a dirty plane thread.
For better or worse, they all tie together to make one big airline
The best you can hope for, is your flight to be delayed over 4 hours so you can cash in your delayed flight insurance.
Feb 19, 2019, 12:41 am
#101
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: YYC
Programs: AC 50k 1MM, Marriott LT Titanium Elite
Posts: 3,402
The pairings come out about a week before the beginning of the month.
Crew sched will block off the required number of seats for deadheading crew.
If a d/h crew day of flight says we need to be on the flight earlier in order to maintain OTP on the operating segment.
The result, quite probably VDB and/or IDB on the crews new flight.
There are consequences to all decisions.
Some will be answered in an OTP thread.
Some will be answered in an VDB/IDB thread.
Some will be answered in an profit/loss thread.
Some will be answered in a manager has been replaced thread.
Some will be answered in a dirty plane thread.
For better or worse, they all tie together to make one big airline
The best you can hope for, is your flight to be delayed over 4 hours so you can cash in your delayed flight insurance.
Crew sched will block off the required number of seats for deadheading crew.
If a d/h crew day of flight says we need to be on the flight earlier in order to maintain OTP on the operating segment.
The result, quite probably VDB and/or IDB on the crews new flight.
There are consequences to all decisions.
Some will be answered in an OTP thread.
Some will be answered in an VDB/IDB thread.
Some will be answered in an profit/loss thread.
Some will be answered in a manager has been replaced thread.
Some will be answered in a dirty plane thread.
For better or worse, they all tie together to make one big airline
The best you can hope for, is your flight to be delayed over 4 hours so you can cash in your delayed flight insurance.
Feb 19, 2019, 11:42 am
#102
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada
Programs: UA*1K MM SK EBG LATAM BL
Posts: 23,314
Of course there is no information about how to actually claim it, because very few people will, if it was advertised - AC would have to pay up more.
You need to email customer service your demand, or just search this forum for EU261.
Feb 19, 2019, 2:26 pm
#104
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 57
The pamphlet they have to give you by law.
Of course there is no information about how to actually claim it, because very few people will, if it was advertised - AC would have to pay up more.
You need to email customer service your demand, or just search this forum for EU261.
Of course there is no information about how to actually claim it, because very few people will, if it was advertised - AC would have to pay up more.
You need to email customer service your demand, or just search this forum for EU261.
Feb 19, 2019, 3:34 pm
#105
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Halifax
Programs: AC SE100K, Marriott Lifetime Platinum Elite. NEXUS
Posts: 4,571
While missing CX, or getting to a final destination "late" is of course a pain, for this traveler, at least getting somewhere "late" is not a critical factor.
Planned time is.
I'm currently stuck on a YHZ-DFW weekly commute. The 'best' WS option is 13:25, YHZ-YYZ-LGA-DFW, arriving at 23:33, or YHZ-YYZ-SLC-DFW arriving at 23:57, with the last & last two hops, respectively, on DL.
AC is YHZ-YYZ-DFW, leaving at 15:10, arriving at 21:22. This week, I actually got to DFW at 23:37, more than two hours "late", and usually am ~30 minutes late.
2 connections is obviously more risky than one connection. Two carriers is obviously more risky than one carrier. Leaving home 1:35 earlier sucks, and scheduled arrival time 2:35 later sucks. 4:10 scheduled more in a metal tube or airports would be horrible.
Always being 30 minutes "late" vs always being 10 minutes "late" is irrelevant when being less late is actually 4 hours longer.... ... cares about that?
Schedule and total time I care about.
And, I humbly submit, that AC has enough big data to know when they are paying out for compensation and hotel tickets, and thus, they also don't care about chronic 30 minute lateness when the average PAX doesn't, either.
Planned time is.
I'm currently stuck on a YHZ-DFW weekly commute. The 'best' WS option is 13:25, YHZ-YYZ-LGA-DFW, arriving at 23:33, or YHZ-YYZ-SLC-DFW arriving at 23:57, with the last & last two hops, respectively, on DL.
AC is YHZ-YYZ-DFW, leaving at 15:10, arriving at 21:22. This week, I actually got to DFW at 23:37, more than two hours "late", and usually am ~30 minutes late.
2 connections is obviously more risky than one connection. Two carriers is obviously more risky than one carrier. Leaving home 1:35 earlier sucks, and scheduled arrival time 2:35 later sucks. 4:10 scheduled more in a metal tube or airports would be horrible.
Always being 30 minutes "late" vs always being 10 minutes "late" is irrelevant when being less late is actually 4 hours longer.... ... cares about that?
Schedule and total time I care about.
And, I humbly submit, that AC has enough big data to know when they are paying out for compensation and hotel tickets, and thus, they also don't care about chronic 30 minute lateness when the average PAX doesn't, either.