KenHamer

Contradicted maybe, but not refuted.

But in Wpgjetse's defense I think what he meant is that as YYZ does not have electricity yet there are no landing lights so therefore Air Canada planes cannot fly at night.

At least I think that's what he meant.

DrunkCargo

Agreed. Collates naturally, and conforms to most-significant-value to least-significant value left-to-right. Of course, this is a tad culture-centric, but either left-to-right or right-to-left is just logical.

I've wondered this as well. Is it a ratio of the cancelled flight's scheduled block time? Curfew/airport operating times are pre-existing conditions well known by the operator, and not relevant for limiting liability.

Transpacificflyer

Sure, it's not a fine. It's just an extra fee they have to pay

Stop it. A fine is a penalty. The explanation provided was incredibly clear so why nitpick? There are a limited number of slots available for departure/arrival. They are priced to reflect their value so that those taking the slots will not waste them. It is not an unusual practice at an airport and has nothing to do with the airlines because it is the para public airport agency that has set the pricing. You work in the SFO Bay area. Have you not noticed that the tolls on the bridges are reduced at certain hours of the day? Higher landing surcharges at certain hours are a reflection of the market conditions, not a sinister plot to enrich the airlines.

Just like AC doesn't have fuel surcharges. Because they're "carrier surcharges". It's an irrelevant distinction for the passenger for the purpose of every discussion except "why hasn't the fuel surcharge disappeared with lower fuel prices".
Wow, that's an irrelevant comparison. Unlike the carrier surcharge, the airline passenger on these flights is not specifically charged. The fees go to the airport, not the airline(s).

Look, the original claim was that there were no operations. None. Zilch. The airport was closed. This was the excuse provided to justify the airline's conduct. Multiple facts were provided that show that the airport operates 24/7 and that there is indeed tarmac activity 24/7. It might be reduced, but it is still operating. Since the initial claim was shown to be false and misleading, we have seen attempts to distract, redirect and change the issue around. Focus on the initial assertion.

How very, embarrassing and I must apologize to ATC for using an inappropriate use of word. ATC was never refuted and remains 100% correct. A better choice of phrasing would have been "failed attempt to refute". Thank you for reminding me that grammar counts.

canadiancow

An increased fee is a penalty for operating at certain hours. The explanation was that airlines are free to fly at 3am, they just have to pay more. And this was used to contradict the "there are fines at 3am" argument. Except it doesn't actually contradict it.

No, I have not noticed any bridge tolls. I don't drive, and I very rarely leave leave the peninsula by car.

And that claim was then modified to say, and I quote, "Why are airlines fined for flights departing late at night?"

Then the argument went like:

"Why are airlines fined?"
"They're not fined, they're just charged more"

So yes, I believe a little nitpicking is warranted.

yyz_atc_qq

There is a difference between increased costs and a fine/penalty

In theory, the max arrival rate is around 70. Which means during the "quiet" hours, the theoretical maximum number of arrivals (and we're talking arrivals only here) is 153,300. The problem is there is a cap on the number of movements (both arrivals and departures) during the quiet hours. It's around 20,000 which works out approx 56 per night. Can the airport handle more operations than that? Sure. But there is a cap, and if they go over that cap there are PENALTIES and FINES So.... how do they try to restrict the number of arrivals/departures to not go over the limit? Increase the cost.

Can operators schedule flights during the quiet hours? sure.... as long as there are slots still available below the limit. Can they operate once the slots are gone? sure, the system can "threoretically" handle it but since the cap on operations has been (or will be) passed there are fines/penalties.

Is this different than just "extra cost"?? YES

Some operators consider it a cost of doing business. CX, BR, certain AC flights, Morningstar (Fedex Canada flights). Most would rather not deal with the extra cost. That being said, as long as there is still room below the cap, anyone can have a delayed flight operate (arrive or depart) during the quiet hours and their only increase will be the difference between the normal cost and late night cost.

tracon

If I choose the more expensive 9:00 flight rather than the cheaper 6:00, is the difference a fine, fee, penalty, carrier surcharge, commercial decision?

Transpacificflyer

The fare difference is attributable to seat availability. Let's use an example;
YYZ to YUL Tango class. The current starting airfare is $211. It's the cost at 00:30, at 06:30 at 14:00 and at 23:30. When there are no Tango seats, as is common to the E 175 equipment on the 00:30 flight, it prices at a flex fare which is the same lowest flex fare for every flight. As seats are purchased, the fare class reflects the remaining inventory. The lowest cost business class fares are priced the same on every flight. Have a look at the flights 60 days from now for a cleaner illustration.

A more vivid example are the flights to NYC. The 06:25 to LGA costs $158, but the 06:30 to EWR is $170. This has nothing to do with YYZ but reflects the destination and the availability of seats because of the equipment used.

jasdou

Getting back on the initial topic... With all this new information, AC had about 12 hours to find a replacement aircraft and they choose not to. Blaming weather in this case seems like a stretch. It simply was much cheaper to cancel AC700 and rebook pax on other flights than to ferry an empty plane overnight.

MasterGeek

What's the minimum delay (not caused by weather) that renders me entitled to a compensation from Air Canada?

canadiancow

Typically food vouchers come out after 2-3 hours, though if you're friendly you can get them earlier.

yyz_atc_qq

https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/...ellations.html

yyznomad

Ok I'm confused reading this thread.

Is YYZ 24/7 or is it closed in the wee hours of the morning?

yyz_atc_qq

Doesn't matter, that's not the point of this thread.

But just in case.... 24/7. No it's NOT CLOSED

eigenvector

Closer to the original point of the thread... there seems to be no regulatory issue stopping AC from ferrying in a replacement aircraft to YYZ overnight, not 28 hours later.

One single cancellation of a short-haul flight shouldn't cause cascading 24+ hour delays at a major hub. There are options including up-gauging a subsequent flight, rebooking pax on connecting flights or other carriers but since AC has no legal obligations to compensate delayed passengers, they continue to do the minimum possible.

yyznomad

Anyone ever take the last ACX rapidair YULYYZ? If so, ever have it for IRROP and depart at 3:30am? I have.