2017.05.19 ac700
May 20, 2017, 7:50 pm
#31
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: YYZ most of the time
Programs: AC SE100K MM, Princess Elite
Posts: 3,921
YYZ does not close. It stops operating scheduled flights between 1am and 6am. That doesn't mean that if a plane is circling at 1:30am they'll let it crash, but I can imagine there are fines (as mentioned) which is why if the plane has gas at 5:30am they'll wait.
I imagine ATC and some baggage guys etc are always around in case needed, probably paid overtime
I imagine ATC and some baggage guys etc are always around in case needed, probably paid overtime
As for being here on OT..... only if it's a normal day off. I work plenty of night shifts as part of my regular rotation as do many other ATC and other airport staff.
May 20, 2017, 9:38 pm
#32
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Speaking of which, departures right now are almost directly above me. Note to whomever: ACr 1816 to LIS and ACr 1908 to DUB... what a racket. Yet, AC 858 to LHR, so smooth and quiet. What is it with those 763s. 
carry on....
carry on....
May 20, 2017, 9:56 pm
#33
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: YYZ most of the time
Programs: AC SE100K MM, Princess Elite
Posts: 3,921
May 21, 2017, 7:19 am
#34
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: YYZ most of the time
Programs: AC SE100K MM, Princess Elite
Posts: 3,921
May 21, 2017, 9:06 am
#35
Join Date: May 2012
Location: BKK/SIN/YYZ/YUL
Programs: DL, AC, Bonvoy, Accor, Hilton
Posts: 2,924
And it is those flights that reinforce and support the OP and other's views. Weather related is an AC catch all "get out of jail" card employed whenever the airline wishes to avoid taking responsibility for the results of its own business decisions.
May 21, 2017, 9:30 am
#36
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: YYZ most of the time
Programs: AC SE100K MM, Princess Elite
Posts: 3,921
For what it's worth I have found other domestic flights that are scheduled to arrive between 0100 and 0600, as well as a few more international flights..... but those don't count in the alternative facts reality we now live in
May 21, 2017, 10:01 am
#37
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You can't imagine how frustrating..... I get grief from MrsQQ all the time as I see things as black and white.... it either is, or it isn't. To hear repeated claims that there are NO scheduled arrivals or departures between 0030-0630, or 0045-0600, or 0100-0600, or whatever the latest claim is just isn't true.
For what it's worth I have found other domestic flights that are scheduled to arrive between 0100 and 0600, as well as a few more international flights..... but those don't count in the alternative facts reality we now live in
For what it's worth I have found other domestic flights that are scheduled to arrive between 0100 and 0600, as well as a few more international flights..... but those don't count in the alternative facts reality we now live in
Maybe you are using alternative facts?
May 21, 2017, 10:54 am
#38
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: OGG, YYC
Programs: AA, AC
Posts: 3,697
Why is this so frustrating? Yes, YYZ does have limited flight operations at night, but they are on exemptions. So here are some questions. Does YYZ have a curfew or not? Can airlines/cargo companies schedule any flight operations they want at night? If you answer yes, why does YYZ not allow night time cargo operations, forcing cargo flights to Hamilton. Why are airlines fined for flights departing late at night? Why are charter flights not allowed YYZ operations after a certain time? Why can't airlines add special flights at night? Why are flights required to circle YYZ in the early morning and not land, if they arrive early?
Maybe you are using alternative facts?
Maybe you are using alternative facts?
Here's a partial list of flights that arrived at YYZ last night between 01:15 and 06:30. Pretty typical night.
Code:
Flight Type From Arrival Time ROU1983 A319 MMMX 06:24AM EDT WJA724 B738 CYVR 06:20AM EDT ACA754 A320 KSFO 06:19AM EDT ACA471 E190 CYOW 06:15AM EDT WJA652 B737 CYYC 06:06AM EDT ELY29 B763 LLBG 06:00AM EDT ACA126 B77W CYVR 05:46AM EDT KNT101 E50P KMKC 05:29AM EDT ACA91 B789 SBGR 05:25AM EDT ACA176 A320 CYEG 05:23AM EDT WJA308 B736 CYMM 05:18AM EDT ACA156 A319 CYYC 05:18AM EDT ACA93 B789 SCEL 04:58AM EDT ACA43 B789 VIDP 04:56AM EDT RZO321 A330 LPPD 04:46AM EDT KAL284 B748 KORD 04:42AM EDT WEN8985 DH8D CYSB 04:20AM EDT WJA8985 DH8D CYSB 04:19AM EDT SWG681 B738 MUVR 03:13AM EDT SWG443 B738 MDPC 02:22AM EDT SWG603 B738 MUCC 02:19AM EDT TSC885 B738 MUVR 02:07AM EDT SWG643 B738 MUHG 01:53AM EDT ACA786 A321 KLAX 01:36AM EDT ACA124 A321 CYVR 01:32AM EDT SWG753 B738 MKJS 01:28AM EDT
May 21, 2017, 11:00 am
#39
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May 21, 2017, 11:07 am
#40
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: OGG, YYC
Programs: AA, AC
Posts: 3,697
I guess I should read more than just the last couple of posts. But I didn't figure that someone would've posted a response to his post hours before he actually posted!
May 21, 2017, 11:10 am
#41
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Yes, FT has that fun feature with people who don't like to scroll back more than a page.
Never underestimate the ability of FTers to post weird stuff and data at all hours of the day or night.
May 21, 2017, 11:16 am
#42
Join Date: May 2012
Location: BKK/SIN/YYZ/YUL
Programs: DL, AC, Bonvoy, Accor, Hilton
Posts: 2,924
It is unfortunate that an effort is still being made to deny that operations are ongoing at Pearson 24/7.
At Pearson airport between the hours of 12:30 a.m. and 6:30 a.m there are on average approximately 40 SCHEDULED flights comprising both passenger and cargo aircraft. They are not exemptions, they are not "fined" and they are not penalized for their operating hours. They are SCHEDULED as in meaning regularly occurring flights. There are also other flights that operate, including those related to flight delays and public security.
On May 19, the following cargo and passenger flight operations occurred;
00:01 to 00:59 - 47 flights
01:00 to 01:59 - 19 flights
02:00 to 02:59- 11 flights
03:00 to 03:59 - 4 flights
04:00 to 04:59 - 2 flights
05:00-05:59 - 11 flights
06:00-07:00 - 67 flights
Source: Pearson Airport Webtrak noise tracking recorder.
Pearson's management provides this explanation;
So why do we have these flights? Not only are they critical in helping travelers reach their destinations and get home again, they also ensure important goods and services are delivered on time – and that’s before we take into account uncontrollable situations, such as inclement weather, Medevac landings and police operations. They are also required to serve the ever evolving and changing travel requirements of our Canadian and global guests.
Someone insists that there is no cargo operation at night. Yet, the airport management itself states that there are cargo operations and provides an explanation for their occurrence as per bold section above
FEDEX has its hub of operations at Pearson airport. It did not build a state of the art facility for it to sit idle at night. As FEDEX states; its Pearson International YYZR is a major point of entry and exit for FedEx Canada. YYZR is a high-performance link in a worldwide system that never sleeps. UPS created a HUB at Pearson, moving its principal hub from Hamilton to Pearson for a good reason. Close to 45% of Canada's air cargo now transits through Pearson international.
At Pearson airport between the hours of 12:30 a.m. and 6:30 a.m there are on average approximately 40 SCHEDULED flights comprising both passenger and cargo aircraft. They are not exemptions, they are not "fined" and they are not penalized for their operating hours. They are SCHEDULED as in meaning regularly occurring flights. There are also other flights that operate, including those related to flight delays and public security.
On May 19, the following cargo and passenger flight operations occurred;
00:01 to 00:59 - 47 flights
01:00 to 01:59 - 19 flights
02:00 to 02:59- 11 flights
03:00 to 03:59 - 4 flights
04:00 to 04:59 - 2 flights
05:00-05:59 - 11 flights
06:00-07:00 - 67 flights
Source: Pearson Airport Webtrak noise tracking recorder.
Pearson's management provides this explanation;
So why do we have these flights? Not only are they critical in helping travelers reach their destinations and get home again, they also ensure important goods and services are delivered on time – and that’s before we take into account uncontrollable situations, such as inclement weather, Medevac landings and police operations. They are also required to serve the ever evolving and changing travel requirements of our Canadian and global guests.
Someone insists that there is no cargo operation at night. Yet, the airport management itself states that there are cargo operations and provides an explanation for their occurrence as per bold section above
FEDEX has its hub of operations at Pearson airport. It did not build a state of the art facility for it to sit idle at night. As FEDEX states; its Pearson International YYZR is a major point of entry and exit for FedEx Canada. YYZR is a high-performance link in a worldwide system that never sleeps. UPS created a HUB at Pearson, moving its principal hub from Hamilton to Pearson for a good reason. Close to 45% of Canada's air cargo now transits through Pearson international.
May 21, 2017, 11:41 am
#43
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: YYZ most of the time
Programs: AC SE100K MM, Princess Elite
Posts: 3,921
Why is this so frustrating? Yes, YYZ does have limited flight operations at night, but they are on exemptions. So here are some questions. Does YYZ have a curfew or not? Can airlines/cargo companies schedule any flight operations they want at night? If you answer yes, why does YYZ not allow night time cargo operations, forcing cargo flights to Hamilton. Why are airlines fined for flights departing late at night? Why are charter flights not allowed YYZ operations after a certain time? Why can't airlines add special flights at night? Why are flights required to circle YYZ in the early morning and not land, if they arrive early?
Maybe you are using alternative facts?
Maybe you are using alternative facts?
First @Wpgjetse thank you for admitting that YYZ does have operations (albeit limited) at night. Previously you stated that they have no scheduled operations.
As to your questions.
Does YYZ have a curfew. Yes, no, maybe, sort of. They have various restrictions scattered throughout the day depending on the noise certification of the aircraft. Non-noise certified aircraft are restricted after 8pm, Chapter II noise compliant are restricted a bit later (midnight?? without being at work and looking at the documents), Chapter III noise compliant are restricted for departures after 0030, and arrivals after 0100. What does this all mean? Are airlines "FINED" for having operations after 0030? and before 0630? Not in the sense I believe you are inferring. There are limits on the number of "Quiet Hours" operations in a year, and if the airlines go over that threshold then yes there are fines/penalties.
Can airlines/cargo companies schedule any flight operations they want at night? Sure. The problem is the limit on the number of quiet hours operations. The GTAA prices landing fees higher (significantly) during this period to discourage operations so there are some left in reserve to accomodate irregular operations without going over the annual limit.
If you answer yes, why does YYZ not allow night time cargo operations, forcing cargo flights to Hamilton. See previous answer. They do allow, and they don't force. It's a commercial choice.
Why are charter flights not allowed YYZ operations after a certain time? They are. See above.
Why can't airlines add special flights at night? They can, and they do. They even add scheduled flights even though some on this board don't like to admit it.
Why are flights required to circle YYZ in the early morning and not land, if they arrive early? If a flight is scheduled to arrive in the "non-quiet" hours, they require an exemption to land during the quiet hours. This is not a fine or penalty, it's just increased landing costs UNLESS the airport as a whole is, or is forecast to be, over their annual limits then not only is there increased landing fees but fines as well. Some airlines want to land as close to 0630 as possible (but not before) so they don't have to pay the extra cost. This is also why most mornings there is a GDP in effect first thing. If the airlines had their way they'd all be in the air holding at the "bedposts" and then race in to see who gets to the runway first. Most mornings there are between 5 and 20 aircraft holding waiting to land right after 0630.
Hopefully this clears up some of the misconceptions about YYZ and night operations.
The one place I do know that has SIGNIFICANT fines is CYTZ. Once 2300 local hits, the airport is 100% closed (except medevacs helicopter or fixed wing) until 0645 local. The fine is $10,000 per operation and is non-discriminatory between commercial or civil, big or small. Even a civil cessna 172 cannot land after 2300 without a fine. Only twice in the 10 years that Porter has been operating into CYTZ have they had ops after 11pm. Both were 2 winters ago after a significant ice/snow event. They may have had special consideration but I can't confirm or deny it. That being said, the landing fees at CYTZ also go up after a certain time which in their case is 2200. I haven't seen it since Jazz took over the Q400s from Sky Regional, but I do recall on MANY MANY occasions Sky Regional being short final at 2201 and asking to divert to Pearson as they had missed their time (they called it curfew and it really was a self-imposed curfew, as it was truly an increased cost of operations). Similarly I have also seen Porter racing in to try and make 2300, only to overshoot at 2300:01 because they weren't wheels on the ground. I've even seen it when they are 1/4mile final or less.
May 21, 2017, 1:35 pm
#45
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SFO
Programs: AC SE MM, BA Gold, SQ Silver, Bonvoy Tit LTG, Hyatt Glob, HH Diamond
Posts: 44,354
It's frustrating because people post absolutes when it's not so.
First @Wpgjetse thank you for admitting that YYZ does have operations (albeit limited) at night. Previously you stated that they have no scheduled operations.
As to your questions.
Does YYZ have a curfew. Yes, no, maybe, sort of. They have various restrictions scattered throughout the day depending on the noise certification of the aircraft. Non-noise certified aircraft are restricted after 8pm, Chapter II noise compliant are restricted a bit later (midnight?? without being at work and looking at the documents), Chapter III noise compliant are restricted for departures after 0030, and arrivals after 0100. What does this all mean? Are airlines "FINED" for having operations after 0030? and before 0630? Not in the sense I believe you are inferring. There are limits on the number of "Quiet Hours" operations in a year, and if the airlines go over that threshold then yes there are fines/penalties.
Can airlines/cargo companies schedule any flight operations they want at night? Sure. The problem is the limit on the number of quiet hours operations. The GTAA prices landing fees higher (significantly) during this period to discourage operations so there are some left in reserve to accomodate irregular operations without going over the annual limit.
If you answer yes, why does YYZ not allow night time cargo operations, forcing cargo flights to Hamilton. See previous answer. They do allow, and they don't force. It's a commercial choice.
Why are charter flights not allowed YYZ operations after a certain time? They are. See above.
Why can't airlines add special flights at night? They can, and they do. They even add scheduled flights even though some on this board don't like to admit it.
Why are flights required to circle YYZ in the early morning and not land, if they arrive early? If a flight is scheduled to arrive in the "non-quiet" hours, they require an exemption to land during the quiet hours. This is not a fine or penalty, it's just increased landing costs UNLESS the airport as a whole is, or is forecast to be, over their annual limits then not only is there increased landing fees but fines as well. Some airlines want to land as close to 0630 as possible (but not before) so they don't have to pay the extra cost. This is also why most mornings there is a GDP in effect first thing. If the airlines had their way they'd all be in the air holding at the "bedposts" and then race in to see who gets to the runway first. Most mornings there are between 5 and 20 aircraft holding waiting to land right after 0630.
Hopefully this clears up some of the misconceptions about YYZ and night operations.
The one place I do know that has SIGNIFICANT fines is CYTZ. Once 2300 local hits, the airport is 100% closed (except medevacs helicopter or fixed wing) until 0645 local. The fine is $10,000 per operation and is non-discriminatory between commercial or civil, big or small. Even a civil cessna 172 cannot land after 2300 without a fine. Only twice in the 10 years that Porter has been operating into CYTZ have they had ops after 11pm. Both were 2 winters ago after a significant ice/snow event. They may have had special consideration but I can't confirm or deny it. That being said, the landing fees at CYTZ also go up after a certain time which in their case is 2200. I haven't seen it since Jazz took over the Q400s from Sky Regional, but I do recall on MANY MANY occasions Sky Regional being short final at 2201 and asking to divert to Pearson as they had missed their time (they called it curfew and it really was a self-imposed curfew, as it was truly an increased cost of operations). Similarly I have also seen Porter racing in to try and make 2300, only to overshoot at 2300:01 because they weren't wheels on the ground. I've even seen it when they are 1/4mile final or less.
First @Wpgjetse thank you for admitting that YYZ does have operations (albeit limited) at night. Previously you stated that they have no scheduled operations.
As to your questions.
Does YYZ have a curfew. Yes, no, maybe, sort of. They have various restrictions scattered throughout the day depending on the noise certification of the aircraft. Non-noise certified aircraft are restricted after 8pm, Chapter II noise compliant are restricted a bit later (midnight?? without being at work and looking at the documents), Chapter III noise compliant are restricted for departures after 0030, and arrivals after 0100. What does this all mean? Are airlines "FINED" for having operations after 0030? and before 0630? Not in the sense I believe you are inferring. There are limits on the number of "Quiet Hours" operations in a year, and if the airlines go over that threshold then yes there are fines/penalties.
Can airlines/cargo companies schedule any flight operations they want at night? Sure. The problem is the limit on the number of quiet hours operations. The GTAA prices landing fees higher (significantly) during this period to discourage operations so there are some left in reserve to accomodate irregular operations without going over the annual limit.
If you answer yes, why does YYZ not allow night time cargo operations, forcing cargo flights to Hamilton. See previous answer. They do allow, and they don't force. It's a commercial choice.
Why are charter flights not allowed YYZ operations after a certain time? They are. See above.
Why can't airlines add special flights at night? They can, and they do. They even add scheduled flights even though some on this board don't like to admit it.
Why are flights required to circle YYZ in the early morning and not land, if they arrive early? If a flight is scheduled to arrive in the "non-quiet" hours, they require an exemption to land during the quiet hours. This is not a fine or penalty, it's just increased landing costs UNLESS the airport as a whole is, or is forecast to be, over their annual limits then not only is there increased landing fees but fines as well. Some airlines want to land as close to 0630 as possible (but not before) so they don't have to pay the extra cost. This is also why most mornings there is a GDP in effect first thing. If the airlines had their way they'd all be in the air holding at the "bedposts" and then race in to see who gets to the runway first. Most mornings there are between 5 and 20 aircraft holding waiting to land right after 0630.
Hopefully this clears up some of the misconceptions about YYZ and night operations.
The one place I do know that has SIGNIFICANT fines is CYTZ. Once 2300 local hits, the airport is 100% closed (except medevacs helicopter or fixed wing) until 0645 local. The fine is $10,000 per operation and is non-discriminatory between commercial or civil, big or small. Even a civil cessna 172 cannot land after 2300 without a fine. Only twice in the 10 years that Porter has been operating into CYTZ have they had ops after 11pm. Both were 2 winters ago after a significant ice/snow event. They may have had special consideration but I can't confirm or deny it. That being said, the landing fees at CYTZ also go up after a certain time which in their case is 2200. I haven't seen it since Jazz took over the Q400s from Sky Regional, but I do recall on MANY MANY occasions Sky Regional being short final at 2201 and asking to divert to Pearson as they had missed their time (they called it curfew and it really was a self-imposed curfew, as it was truly an increased cost of operations). Similarly I have also seen Porter racing in to try and make 2300, only to overshoot at 2300:01 because they weren't wheels on the ground. I've even seen it when they are 1/4mile final or less.
"Are airlines "FINED" for having operations after 0030? and before 0630? Not in the sense I believe you are inferring. ... yes there are fines/penalties."
"This is not a fine or penalty, it's just increased landing costs"
Sure, it's not a fine. It's just an extra fee they have to pay
Just like AC doesn't have fuel surcharges. Because they're "carrier surcharges". It's an irrelevant distinction for the passenger for the purpose of every discussion except "why hasn't the fuel surcharge disappeared with lower fuel prices".