Tractor Boy

This I think is the key point - airlines want high yield passengers. Many on this forum seem to have trouble with this. Sure it would be nice if we could get all the perks all the time flying on discount fares, but it won't happen. Pay J and you should expect the world (which AC's front cabin frequently doesn't provide). Pay less and expect less.

I know the majority on this board don't agree with this view but FF programs have in my view historically been very generous to low yield passengers. The practice of giving the same points to a passenger on a discount fare as a high yield passenger on full fare economy doesn't make a lot of sense (never mind upgrade rights etc). AC has partially moved away from this model and I think we will see more of this in the future from other airlines and/or a rapid inflation in reward requirements. Full service airlines aren't making money. FF programs are giving out more miles than they redeem. This isn't sustainable. Sorry if I'm starting to sound like SH

parnel

your point is well taken with the exception that the flyer who pays the full whack is generally not a FF per se.Any company today, and I do work for several, does not want to pay full shot be it Esso or Royal Bank, they are all watching their travel budgets.
Also the fact that full fares are way overpriced plays a role in this and compnaies are trying to force their employees to pay heed to budgets,etc.

Yes, there are those who will pay full fare because they seem to not have any other choice if they are rquested to be in say SYD in two days.They are more and more in the minority, because there are bucket shops who will still sell discounted tickets that close to departure and lots of companies know about them.
The airlines are fooling themselves when they continue to think the full fare pax is going to carry the freight for them.They need to have less stupid fares like the Sat. layovers etc. and get serious about their real revenue streams which is the business person willing to pay a reasonable fare.$3000 for a full fare ticket from YYZ to YYC is abominable and very few people ar epaying it.

Ferrari

Okay....

I'm not one to generally persist in an argument, but you leave me no alternative.

SH.

Whether its one route or 50 routes, AC have a duty to serve there FF base fairly and evenly, if, as they did this year offer to have Prestige/elites & stupid elites upgrade at various time intervals then surly they should offer this benefit without trying to change the rules as they go along.
Is this not capacity control?.

As with the reward seat, a number should be left to one side, one starts to think that this may have been in AC original plan.


AC*SE

I disagree here, I think that a companies best customer is one that comes back time after time. A J paying passenger will just take what ever he/she can get, they have no loyalty to any airline.

What's better one 8k paying customer every 6 months, or 20 2k customers every month.
The first customer will not let you plan your business, as you just never know.

The major problem with all of this is the airline industry has their heads up their asses.
The business model for fare basis and "tricking" the passenger just doesn't work anymore.
Mr. Average can go to his computer and find the cheapest flight and book it in 5 mins.

One of these Airlines has to break rank and be a maverick, sure its going hurt, but the first one to do it will win.

So my original point.

Why, if they offer seats as upgrades to FF members, have them available 8 days before, then remove them when we can upgrade.?

Now, we understand why Agents are being threatened with hanging if they upgrade before the 7 day window.
Its a plot to screw us once more.

[This message has been edited by Ferrari (edited 07-30-2002).]

airbus320

Ferrari: I think the concept is called yield management.

ALW

And I refer back to my earlier point, if they could make upgrades "E" class, you'd probably find that route was E0 at 8 days and E0 at 7 days. IOW, they're using "C" class for two purposes: as a cheap(er) restricted Business Class revenue space until 7 days out, and as upgrade space starting at the 168hr mark. Of course if they don't actually offer discounted BC on this route, then they should show C0 until 7 days before.

I know we all know about the double-duty, but I've never thought (until this thread) of it switching purpose at some point -- and last year, with anytime upgrades for SE, it didn't.

Think of "C" class as actually being C class before 7 days, and C' class starting at 7 days, having absolutely no relation to each other. On some routes C' starts with 0 availability, on others C' starts with >0 availability.

BTW, none of the foregoing should be taken to minimize my sympathy for your frustration.

andrew

Ferrari

Intesting that out AC types don't wade in and tell us we are all wrong.

Airbus320.
I 'm aware of yeild management, do I think its the right way to plan...No.
Does it work,...who knows, but I don't think so.

AW.

I'm sure you do understand my frustration, You give all your business to one carrier to get the published benefits, then they shaft you...

ummm, that breads a loyal customer.

Wakey wakey AC.

So tempted to go for UAIK status for the rest of this year, I have 2 rtw to do, thats 52k
Couple of sin runs and I home....

AC*SE

C class fares exist on all routes operated by AC mainline, because RTWs are booked in C. C class is kept available more than 7 days out so that RTW tix can be sold.

I disagree with the assertion that the full-fare J pax is not an FF per se. In fact, I would wager that a large percentage of SEs are the type who do not hang around these boards, but who fly consistently on front-cabin fares. The fact of the matter is that there are still people out there who pay full J. Government travel authorizes J for flights over 9 hours, or total travel over 12 hours in one day. Many private companies have similar rules regarding use of J or even F class for flights of certain durations.

LHR, HKG, NRT and SYD are the best four routes for sale of full fares out of Canada, though as SH notes, some days are heavier than others. So given the choice between one more sale in J, or one upgrade for an SE, what is the airline to do?

In my view, this is a no-brainer--the SE's loyalty has already been secured, and is maintained based on a pattern of experience. True, one disaster can spoil a relationship. But not getting one upgrade is generally not a disaster--and if it is, is this the type of loyalty that is worth retaining? Consistently not getting upgrades is more troublesome. But to put aside a dedicated inventory for upgrades implies that the airline will not sell those seats at full fare. That is not a sound practice.

Reward seats are a benefit bought and paid for, and the airline sets aside a percentage for that purpose. Upgrades are not. If they are available, they are a nice perk--but when SEs start to bank on upgrades, and no longer buy J fares, the upgrades are undercutting the product.

Ken hAAmer

Actually the point is that "high yield passengers" are now extinct. They were well on their way to becoming extinct over the last year or two. Then on September 11 a large "asteroid" (several, actually) fell to earth and with that, the high yield passenger was gone.

That's why SouthWest, WestJet, and JetBlue are doing so well. It's why Air Canada among others are playing musical airlines with discount startups. It's why America West is turning fares upside down. And it's why large carriers, Canadian, American, and others, are losing money. And it's also why (in part) there are fewer and fewer people in AC J cabins.

Eventually all the airlines will look similar (again). And eventually "things" in general will start to pick up. But there won't be anything to distinguish the former full service carrier from the oceans of discount carriers.

Well, except for the enormous infrastructure cost burdens the alleged full service carriers will continue to carry. So eventually they'll start to offer more and more "benefits" (like upgrades from discounted fares) simply to maintain minimal life support, and to provide market differentiation against all those discounters. Only the long time travellers will be wary of them and their promises of loyalty, and will be brutal to the airlines.

And as for the paid-J customer being an airlines' best, I'm persuaded by Ferrari's argument -- J class customers can afford to be completely fickle. They get essentially all the benefits of a high-mileage frequent flyer regardless of the airline they fly. So if CX has a more convenient departure time, or perceived better service, or flat beds in J, then CX it is. And with each passing day, AC's J cabin becomes more and more tired (de-valued, actually) and AC falls yet another day behind the rest of the pack.

This current slashing of benefits is just a burp in the business cycle, and one I suspect the airlines will come to regret.

Ken hAAmer

In fact, the further to the right a so-called "free enterprise" government is, the more likely it is they will be prepared to spend huge amounts of taxpayer dollars on things like J-class travel. The Gordon Campbell Social Credit Party here in BC just authorized J-class travel for flights over 4 hours.

So instead of spending $500-$1000 of taxpayers money to fly politicians and their appointees to Toronto, Montreal or Ottawa, they are now spending ~$4000 of taxpayers money for the same trip. It's part of their cost savings measures.

[parnel -- this one's for you]

Ferrari

Actually, RTW,s are booked in B or H .

Please EVERYONE , I understand all the if's and but's of why AC has booking classes,/yeild management/ and why they would prefer a J fare to my H fare.

The point of the post is this.

If they publish a benefit, it should be honored. PERIOD.

To take away the availbitly in this case to suit themselves is not very fair, and an abuse of my trust in obtaining the required 100k status miles to have access to these benefits.

Why they do it really is of no interest to me.

If you offer SE benefits then offer them regardless of the fact that it maybe be a busy time, its the cost of doing business.

AC*SE

Surely as a SE you would also be upset if the published benefit at the level to which you have achieved is removed to suit them.

Its almost a contract.

How would you feel if they told you that you will not know if you have a reward seat until you got to the airport, cause we would like to try and sell it.!

Basically the same thing.

ALW

Only economy RTWs, shurely!? I would think F and J RTWs are booked in C [resulting another erosion of Aeroplan benefits this year, since an F or J RTW only earns 100% status miles instead of 125% previously]

andrew

Shareholder

I think you are being quite ingenuous, KH. While you are a master of the "loophole" you are also among the highest of the high yield airline customers in this forum, and on this BB. You are also the least likely among us to rely on upgrades to fly in the front cabin, and probably outspend Empress, Ferrari and myself combined.

As always, I agree with most of what you say, but disagree with a small smidgeon of your conclusion. Among the road warrior class, full fare and front cabin travel has definitely gone down, in part due to the economic downturn which pre-dated 9.11. But there will always be a market for paid premium class service among corporate higher echelons, and the rich and affluent. It is shrinking, to be sure, but it is still there.

AC has recognized this -- particular to the vaguaries of the Canadian marketplace and our less affluent populace -- and is reshaping mainline accordingly, and enhancing its discount offerings. It is relaunching J this fall, and may soon have a premium cabin worthy of the name by this time next year. But it will be harder to get into, unless you pay for the privilege.

One just has to look south of the border to better see your prophesy being played out. While both AC and WestJet will declare profits for the 2nd quarter, even SouthWest just reported a sharp decline in its profit, and we all know how many buckets of red ink have flowed from the other mainline carriers. US airline execs have still not responded in any fashion, perhaps because the market has already been captured by SouthWest, JetBlue et al. They too need to rethink their domestic operations, both downsize and dump money-losing front cabins on all but the key transcons and top 20 market routes. Not a single mainline US carrier has bit the bullet on this yet, pretending to think the economic recovery will solve their problems. And of course, each is terrified of losing their "loyal FF customers" to the other lest they make such a major move as dropping front cabins from most domestic routes.

Ferrari

AW.

Sure, thats correct.
I was talking Economy, thats why I want the UG.
I expect RTW in J/F and booked in J or F .

Good point though.!

Ferrari

SH.

Come on please remove those rose tinted glasses....

Why can you not see what every airline anaylist see's...

ALW

'cause most of the analysts are pushing shares in something?

andrew