Ottawa considering allowing armed U.S. customs agents in Canada
Dec 15, 2001, 12:15 pm
#16
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NJ, USA
Posts: 423
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by AC*SE:
If the issue is security of the facilities, then the security that is in place for US Consulates seems adequate--and US diplomats and consuls have not expressed a burning need to arm themselves.
</font>
If the issue is security of the facilities, then the security that is in place for US Consulates seems adequate--and US diplomats and consuls have not expressed a burning need to arm themselves.
</font>
I don't know if this proves anything, but a couple of years ago after Ocalan was captured by the Turkish government there were protests at many Israeli emabssies in Europe because many Kurds believed Israel had helped capture him. There was an incident, I think in Germany, where protesters got too close to the embassy and Israeli security guards opened fire on them, I think killing 2 poeple. There were allegations that the Israelis had fired when it wasn't necessary. Thankfully it didn't cause a war, just a lot of problems.
The Israeli sky marshals on ElAL flights leave their weapons on the plane when they deboard.
[This message has been edited by flaco (edited 12-15-2001).]
Dec 15, 2001, 1:42 pm
#17
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia
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Security as US missions varies according to the threat. There are certainly no marines at the Consulates in Vancouver or Toronto.
As for extra-territoriality, the answer is yes, and no.
The PFI station is still Canadian territory. Canadian law still completely applies, and Canadian police still have jurisdiction.
The Preclearance Act, which is not yet in force, provides for (inter alia):
The administration of preclearance laws (US laws in relations to cutsoms, immigration, public health, food inspection and plant and animal health.) Preclearance law includes monetary penalties, but nothing that would be considered criminal in Canada.
Administration of preclearance law is subject to the Charter, the Bill of Rights and the Human Rights Act.
Where a candian offence is committed in a preclearance area, and charges are laid, those charges will take precedence over any US penalties that could be imposed, and the US penalties cannot be imposed.
A preclearance officer must not use force that is intended or is likely to cause death or grievous bodily harm unless the officer believes on reasonable grounds that it is necessary for self-preservation or the preservation of anyone under the officer's protection from death or grievous bodily harm.
American officers will not be authorized to conduct strip searches--those must be performed by a Canadian officer, and both the Canadian officer and a senior officer must have reasonable grounds to believe that it is necessary.
As for extra-territoriality, the answer is yes, and no.
The PFI station is still Canadian territory. Canadian law still completely applies, and Canadian police still have jurisdiction.
The Preclearance Act, which is not yet in force, provides for (inter alia):
The administration of preclearance laws (US laws in relations to cutsoms, immigration, public health, food inspection and plant and animal health.) Preclearance law includes monetary penalties, but nothing that would be considered criminal in Canada.
Administration of preclearance law is subject to the Charter, the Bill of Rights and the Human Rights Act.
Where a candian offence is committed in a preclearance area, and charges are laid, those charges will take precedence over any US penalties that could be imposed, and the US penalties cannot be imposed.
A preclearance officer must not use force that is intended or is likely to cause death or grievous bodily harm unless the officer believes on reasonable grounds that it is necessary for self-preservation or the preservation of anyone under the officer's protection from death or grievous bodily harm.
American officers will not be authorized to conduct strip searches--those must be performed by a Canadian officer, and both the Canadian officer and a senior officer must have reasonable grounds to believe that it is necessary.
Dec 15, 2001, 4:34 pm
#18
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: YYZ/YHM/BUF
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by AC*SE:
Well, just a guess here... but the tone of Al's post suggests that for the moment his affection for things American has been supplanted by his dislike of these particular Americans.</font>
Well, just a guess here... but the tone of Al's post suggests that for the moment his affection for things American has been supplanted by his dislike of these particular Americans.</font>
But anyway, I haven't lost my fondness for things American. I had a wonderful trip to Miami! And AA is a wonderful airline
-FlyerAl at the MIA B Admirals Club
[This message has been edited by FlyerAl (edited 12-15-2001).]
Dec 16, 2001, 7:50 am
#19
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Posts: 9,596
AC*SE:
Your response has been very informative, to me. Thank you, very much.
If I may ask, where did you find the information that you posted - I am interested in reading that publication/article.
I still am confused on a couple of points. The PreClearance Act is not yet in force, because it has not yet been gone through the 3rd reading in Parliament, or because the Governor-General has not signed the bill into law? What is the practical effect of this bill not yet in force, into terms of the day to day activities of the US preclearance officers?
Does the PreClearance Act allow US officers to carry firearms in Canadian airports, or will the act have to be amended for them to be allowed to do so?
Your response has been very informative, to me. Thank you, very much.
If I may ask, where did you find the information that you posted - I am interested in reading that publication/article.
I still am confused on a couple of points. The PreClearance Act is not yet in force, because it has not yet been gone through the 3rd reading in Parliament, or because the Governor-General has not signed the bill into law? What is the practical effect of this bill not yet in force, into terms of the day to day activities of the US preclearance officers?
Does the PreClearance Act allow US officers to carry firearms in Canadian airports, or will the act have to be amended for them to be allowed to do so?
Dec 16, 2001, 11:07 am
#20
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia
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The Preclearance Act has been passed by Parliament, and has received Royal Assent. However, like most legislation, is provides that it will come into force, "on a day fixed by proclamation." When the Government has its ducks in a row, it will advise the Governor-General to issue a proclamation that the Act will come into force on a particular date.
The text of the Act (along with most other Acts and Regulations) is available at the Justice Canada website (http://lois.justice.gc.ca/en/index.html)
The Act does not provide for the carriage of sidearms, though it does presume that there are cicumstances under which US officers will use force in preclearance stations. It remains to be seen whether (and how) the Government will go about authorizing US officer to carry sidearms.
The text of the Act (along with most other Acts and Regulations) is available at the Justice Canada website (http://lois.justice.gc.ca/en/index.html)
The Act does not provide for the carriage of sidearms, though it does presume that there are cicumstances under which US officers will use force in preclearance stations. It remains to be seen whether (and how) the Government will go about authorizing US officer to carry sidearms.
Dec 16, 2001, 11:50 am
#23
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Kingston, Ont, the limestone city
Posts: 975
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Empress:
Moremiles, I couldn't resist, why are you so against every move that the US has made the last couple of weeks ranging from increasing security at the borders to CNN not broadcasting that Canada thing at NY to this thing? </font>
Moremiles, I couldn't resist, why are you so against every move that the US has made the last couple of weeks ranging from increasing security at the borders to CNN not broadcasting that Canada thing at NY to this thing? </font>
[This message has been edited by MoreMiles (edited 12-16-2001).]
Dec 17, 2001, 5:04 am
#24
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Kingston, Ont, the limestone city
Posts: 975
See my original post, I mentioned:
"Are we replacing our own law enforcement agency with theirs next? RCMP, you are out of here. FBI, come on in!"
Just came out on news...
FBI plans to put more agents in Canada http://www.cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/...i_canada011217
One more step closer in losing Canadian sovereignty
"Are we replacing our own law enforcement agency with theirs next? RCMP, you are out of here. FBI, come on in!"
Just came out on news...
FBI plans to put more agents in Canada http://www.cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/...i_canada011217
One more step closer in losing Canadian sovereignty
Dec 17, 2001, 1:05 pm
#25
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia
Programs: BA GGL, FPC Plat, HH Diamond, IHG Amb
Posts: 3,372
Sois calme¸, Moremiles.
Those FBI agents are "legal attachés" in the US Embassy in Ottawa (there may be a couple in Consulates-General as well).
They are no different than the RCMP attachés that we post around the world. Their function is intelligence gathering and liaison--not direct law enforcement.
Those FBI agents are "legal attachés" in the US Embassy in Ottawa (there may be a couple in Consulates-General as well).
They are no different than the RCMP attachés that we post around the world. Their function is intelligence gathering and liaison--not direct law enforcement.
Dec 17, 2001, 1:39 pm
#26
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Gee, FlyerAl has met some rude, SOB Americans! I found the chaps at T3 quite pleasant the morning I went through a few weeks ago. The primary and I spent 10-minutes trading notes about museums and galleries to visit in DC. [There was no line up, so we weren't slowing down anyone's passage.]
WARNING FOR EMPRESS...PLEASE READ BEFORE YOU LEAVE THE COUNTRY AGAIN:
By the way, the TORONTO STAR is reporting today that Canada Customs at YYZ -- and I assume other gateway airports -- may be getting batons and pepperspray, and have been undergoing "use of force" training [from the RCMP's infamous "St. Pepper"?]. Apparently only agents at Buffalo, Niagara Falls, and on the BC border, have been given the power of arrest, but those at YYZ and YVR are likely to soon get this power too, according to the story.
Hmmmm. EMPRESS, best watch it next time you return through YVR!
WARNING FOR EMPRESS...PLEASE READ BEFORE YOU LEAVE THE COUNTRY AGAIN:
By the way, the TORONTO STAR is reporting today that Canada Customs at YYZ -- and I assume other gateway airports -- may be getting batons and pepperspray, and have been undergoing "use of force" training [from the RCMP's infamous "St. Pepper"?]. Apparently only agents at Buffalo, Niagara Falls, and on the BC border, have been given the power of arrest, but those at YYZ and YVR are likely to soon get this power too, according to the story.
Hmmmm. EMPRESS, best watch it next time you return through YVR!
Dec 17, 2001, 2:04 pm
#27
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Toronto,
Posts: 834
The US embassy in Ottawa has had a heavy marine presence for quite some time.
Three years ago I was house hunting there, and one house viewed, had been rented by the US Gov't. for the corps. They were moving out as they were vastly increasing their manpower in preparation for the move into the new embassy. They had the chain of command from the President on down to their unit on a kitchen cupboard.
Interestingly they have to rent, as to buy would require a bill to pass congress with the add on's from both sides. So the state dept. just expenses it through rent.
Likewise with SE's comments I don't see the need for customs agents at the airport to be armed. The Canadian federal government should have more visible mounties there in my view.
Three years ago I was house hunting there, and one house viewed, had been rented by the US Gov't. for the corps. They were moving out as they were vastly increasing their manpower in preparation for the move into the new embassy. They had the chain of command from the President on down to their unit on a kitchen cupboard.
Interestingly they have to rent, as to buy would require a bill to pass congress with the add on's from both sides. So the state dept. just expenses it through rent.
Likewise with SE's comments I don't see the need for customs agents at the airport to be armed. The Canadian federal government should have more visible mounties there in my view.
Dec 17, 2001, 10:11 pm
#28
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: YYZ/YHM/BUF
Programs: AA Plat, HH Gold, MR Plat
Posts: 4,212
There were busy lineups at T3 US Customs on Thursday morning around 5:30am.
What I found most annoying about the US customs process in YYZ was that after answering the customs officer's many questions at the booth and then being cleared by them, everyone was asked the exact same questions by the two guys collecting the immigration cards before the exit. This made the the process even slower and more annoying than necessary. This procedure did not take place at PHL after arriving from CDG two weeks ago - why are they doing it at YYZ? The customs agent at the booth wasn't rude - just a bit abrupt. It was the guy collecting the cards who was very rude. I was very close to telling him off, but I didn't want to end up being probed in peculiar places
OTOH, for those of you interested in joining FlyerAl's BUF fan club, the US customs process at the bridge is usually done in about 30 seconds.
Dealing with Canada Customs at T3 wasn't a problem Saturday night. We were the only flight that came in and there were no lineups. The customs agents were speedy and friendly (they usually are at T3).
What I found most annoying about the US customs process in YYZ was that after answering the customs officer's many questions at the booth and then being cleared by them, everyone was asked the exact same questions by the two guys collecting the immigration cards before the exit. This made the the process even slower and more annoying than necessary. This procedure did not take place at PHL after arriving from CDG two weeks ago - why are they doing it at YYZ? The customs agent at the booth wasn't rude - just a bit abrupt. It was the guy collecting the cards who was very rude. I was very close to telling him off, but I didn't want to end up being probed in peculiar places
OTOH, for those of you interested in joining FlyerAl's BUF fan club, the US customs process at the bridge is usually done in about 30 seconds.
Dealing with Canada Customs at T3 wasn't a problem Saturday night. We were the only flight that came in and there were no lineups. The customs agents were speedy and friendly (they usually are at T3).
Dec 17, 2001, 10:42 pm
#29
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Kingston, Ont, the limestone city
Posts: 975
How far is the Buffalo airport after you cross the bridge?
In Windsor, it's still not easy to find DTW airport after you cross the bridge. The roadsigns are not clear. You need to turn left and go east but... You can easily end up at the other end of the town with highways everywhere. Otherwise DTW is a good place to start since it is the hub for NW.
In Windsor, it's still not easy to find DTW airport after you cross the bridge. The roadsigns are not clear. You need to turn left and go east but... You can easily end up at the other end of the town with highways everywhere. Otherwise DTW is a good place to start since it is the hub for NW.
Dec 17, 2001, 10:45 pm
#30
Company Representative - Air Canada
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Canada
Posts: 24,215
Don't worry Shareholder, I always cooperate with them but they have really been testing my patience lately. 
Those YVR ones could really use some retraining, they are definitely wasting too much time grilling their own citizens!
Those YVR ones could really use some retraining, they are definitely wasting too much time grilling their own citizens!