Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Airlines and Mileage Programs > United Airlines | MileagePlus
Reload this Page >

Man pulled off of overbooked flight UA3411 (ORD-SDF) 9 Apr 2017 {Settlement reached}

Community
Wiki Posts
Search
Old Apr 10, 2017, 8:42 pm
FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides
Last edit by: WineCountryUA
WELCOME, THREAD GUIDELINES and SUMMARY PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING

If you are new to us, welcome to FlyerTalk! Who we are: FlyerTalk features discussions and chat boards that cover the most up-to-date traveler information; an interactive community dedicated to the topic of travel (not politics or arguments about politics or religion, etc. – those discussion are best in the OMNI forum)

The incident discussed in this thread has touched a nerve for many, and many posters are passionate about their opinions and concerns. However we should still have a civil and respectful discussion of this topic. This is because FlyerTalk is meant to be a friendly, helpful, and collegial community. (Rule 12.)

1. The normal FlyerTalk Rules apply. (Including not discussing moderation actions in thread). Please be particularly attentive to "discussing the idea and not the poster" when you have a disagreement. Civility and mutual respect are still expected and are what we owe each other as a community.

2. You are expected to respect the FlyerTalk community's diversity, and therefore refrain from posting inflammatory comments about race, religion, culture, politics, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. Do not cite, copy, or report on such.

3. While you can disagree with an opinion, the holder of that opinion has the same right to their opinion as you have to yours. We request all to respect that and disagree or discuss their point of views without getting overly personal and without attacking the other poster(s). This is expected as a requirement in FT Rule 12.

4. Overly exaggerative posts as well as posts with information that has been posted several times previously may be summarily deleted.

5. In addition, those who repeatedly fail to comply with FlyerTalk Rules, may be subjected to FlyerTalk disciplinary actions and, e.g., have membership privileges suspended, or masked from this forum.

If you have questions about the Rules or concerns about what another has posted in this or other threads in this forum, please do not post about that. Rather, notify the moderators by using the alert symbol within each post or email or send a private message to us moderators.

Let’s have this discussion in a way that, when we look back on it, we can be proud of how we handled ourselves as a community.

The United Moderator team:
J.Edward
l'etoile
Ocn Vw 1K
Pat89339
WineCountryUA

N.B. PLEASE do not alter the contents of this moderator note
Statement from United Airlines Regarding Resolution with Dr. David Dao - released 27 April 2017
CHICAGO, April 27, 2017 /PRNewswire/ -- We are pleased to report that United and Dr. Dao have reached an amicable resolution of the unfortunate incident that occurred aboard flight 3411. We look forward to implementing the improvements we have announced, which will put our customers at the center of everything we do.
DOT findings related to the UA3411 9 April 2017 IDB incident 12 May 2017

What facts do we know?
  • UA3411, operated by Republic Airways, ORD-SDF on Sunday, April 9, 2017. UA3411 was the second to last flight to SDF for United. AA3509 and UA4771 were the two remaining departures for the day. Also, AA and DL had connecting options providing for same-day arrival in SDF.
  • After the flight was fully boarded, United determined four seats were needed to accommodate crew to SDF for a flight on Monday.
  • United solicited volunteers for VDB. (BUT stopped at $800 in UA$s, not cash). Chose not to go to the levels such as 1350 that airlines have been known to go even in case of weather impacted disruption)
  • After receiving no volunteers for $800 vouchers, a passenger volunteered for $1,600 and was "laughed at" and refused, United determined four passengers to be removed from the flight.
  • One passenger refused and Chicago Aviation Security Officers were called to forcibly remove the passenger.
  • The passenger hit the armrest in the aisle and received a concussion, a broken nose, a bloodied lip, and the loss of two teeth.
  • After being removed from the plane, the passenger re-boarded saying "I need to go home" repeatedly, before being removed again.
  • United spokesman Jonathan Guerin said the flight was sold out — but not oversold. Instead, United and regional affiliate Republic Airlines – the unit that operated Flight 3411 – decided they had to remove four passengers from the flight to accommodate crewmembers who were needed in Louisville the next day for a “downline connection.”

United Express Flight 3411 Review and Action Report - released 27 April 2017

Videos

Internal Communication by Oscar Munoz
Oscar Munoz sent an internal communication to UA employees (sources: View From The Wing, Chicago Tribune):
Dear Team,

Like you, I was upset to see and hear about what happened last night aboard United Express Flight 3411 headed from Chicago to Louisville. While the facts and circumstances are still evolving, especially with respect to why this customer defied Chicago Aviation Security Officers the way he did, to give you a clearer picture of what transpired, I've included below a recap from the preliminary reports filed by our employees.

As you will read, this situation was unfortunately compounded when one of the passengers we politely asked to deplane refused and it became necessary to contact Chicago Aviation Security Officers to help. Our employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this. While I deeply regret this situation arose, I also emphatically stand behind all of you, and I want to commend you for continuing to go above and beyond to ensure we fly right.

I do, however, believe there are lessons we can learn from this experience, and we are taking a close look at the circumstances surrounding this incident. Treating our customers and each other with respect and dignity is at the core of who we are, and we must always remember this no matter how challenging the situation.

Oscar

Summary of Flight 3411
  • On Sunday, April 9, after United Express Flight 3411 was fully boarded, United's gate agents were approached by crewmembers that were told they needed to board the flight.
  • We sought volunteers and then followed our involuntary denial of boarding process (including offering up to $1,000 in compensation) and when we approached one of these passengers to explain apologetically that he was being denied boarding, he raised his voice and refused to comply with crew member instructions.
  • He was approached a few more times after that in order to gain his compliance to come off the aircraft, and each time he refused and became more and more disruptive and belligerent.
  • Our agents were left with no choice but to call Chicago Aviation Security Officers to assist in removing the customer from the flight. He repeatedly declined to leave.
  • Chicago Aviation Security Officers were unable to gain his cooperation and physically removed him from the flight as he continued to resist - running back onto the aircraft in defiance of both our crew and security officials.
Email sent to all employees at 2:08PM on Tuesday, April 11.
Dear Team,

The truly horrific event that occurred on this flight has elicited many responses from all of us: outrage, anger, disappointment. I share all of those sentiments, and one above all: my deepest apologies for what happened. Like you, I continue to be disturbed by what happened on this flight and I deeply apologize to the customer forcibly removed and to all the customers aboard. No one should ever be mistreated this way.

I want you to know that we take full responsibility and we will work to make it right.

It’s never too late to do the right thing. I have committed to our customers and our employees that we are going to fix what’s broken so this never happens again. This will include a thorough review of crew movement, our policies for incentivizing volunteers in these situations, how we handle oversold situations and an examination of how we partner with airport authorities and local law enforcement. We’ll communicate the results of our review by April 30th.

I promise you we will do better.

Sincerely,

Oscar
Statement to customers - 27 April 2017
Each flight you take with us represents an important promise we make to you, our customer. It's not simply that we make sure you reach your destination safely and on time, but also that you will be treated with the highest level of service and the deepest sense of dignity and respect.

Earlier this month, we broke that trust when a passenger was forcibly removed from one of our planes. We can never say we are sorry enough for what occurred, but we also know meaningful actions will speak louder than words.

For the past several weeks, we have been urgently working to answer two questions: How did this happen, and how can we do our best to ensure this never happens again?

It happened because our corporate policies were placed ahead of our shared values. Our procedures got in the way of our employees doing what they know is right.

Fixing that problem starts now with changing how we fly, serve and respect our customers. This is a turning point for all of us here at United – and as CEO, it's my responsibility to make sure that we learn from this experience and redouble our efforts to put our customers at the center of everything we do.

That’s why we announced that we will no longer ask law enforcement to remove customers from a flight and customers will not be required to give up their seat once on board – except in matters of safety or security.

We also know that despite our best efforts, when things don’t go the way they should, we need to be there for you to make things right. There are several new ways we’re going to do just that.

We will increase incentives for voluntary rebooking up to $10,000 and will be eliminating the red tape on permanently lost bags with a new "no-questions-asked" $1,500 reimbursement policy. We will also be rolling out a new app for our employees that will enable them to provide on-the-spot goodwill gestures in the form of miles, travel credit and other amenities when your experience with us misses the mark. You can learn more about these commitments and many other changes at hub.united.com.

While these actions are important, I have found myself reflecting more broadly on the role we play and the responsibilities we have to you and the communities we serve.

I believe we must go further in redefining what United's corporate citizenship looks like in our society. If our chief good as a company is only getting you to and from your destination, that would show a lack of moral imagination on our part. You can and ought to expect more from us, and we intend to live up to those higher expectations in the way we embody social responsibility and civic leadership everywhere we operate. I hope you will see that pledge express itself in our actions going forward, of which these initial, though important, changes are merely a first step.

Our goal should be nothing less than to make you truly proud to say, "I fly United."

Ultimately, the measure of our success is your satisfaction and the past several weeks have moved us to go further than ever before in elevating your experience with us. I know our 87,000 employees have taken this message to heart, and they are as energized as ever to fulfill our promise to serve you better with each flight and earn the trust you’ve given us.

We are working harder than ever for the privilege to serve you and I know we will be stronger, better and the customer-focused airline you expect and deserve.

With Great Gratitude,

Oscar Munoz
CEO
United Airlines
Aftermath
Poll: Your Opinion of United Airlines Reference Material

UA's Customer Commitment says:
Occasionally we may not be able to provide you with a seat on a specific flight, even if you hold a ticket, have checked in, are present to board on time, and comply with other requirements. This is called an oversale, and occurs when restrictions apply to operating a particular flight safely (such as aircraft weight limits); when we have to substitute a smaller aircraft in place of a larger aircraft that was originally scheduled; or if more customers have checked in and are prepared to board than we have available seats.

If your flight is in an oversale situation, you will not be denied a seat until we first ask for volunteers willing to give up their confirmed seats. If there are not enough volunteers, we will deny boarding to passengers in accordance with our written policy on boarding priority. If you are involuntarily denied boarding and have complied with our check-in and other applicable rules, we will give you a written statement that describes your rights and explains how we determine boarding priority for an oversold flight. You will generally be entitled to compensation and transportation on an alternate flight.

We make complete rules for the payment of compensation, as well as our policy about boarding priorities, available at airports we serve. We will follow these rules to ensure you are treated fairly. Please be aware that you may be denied boarding without compensation if you do not check in on time or do not meet certain other requirements, or if we offer you alternative transportation that is planned to arrive at your destination or first stopover no later than one hour after the planned arrival time of your original flight.
CoC is here: https://www.united.com/web/en-US/con...-carriage.aspx
Print Wikipost

Man pulled off of overbooked flight UA3411 (ORD-SDF) 9 Apr 2017 {Settlement reached}

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Apr 11, 2017, 6:16 am
  #2416  
Four Seasons Contributor BadgeBanyan Contributor Badge
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Programs: We love to Fly, Hotels and Discovery
Posts: 1,471
Thanks to United Airlines, is flying while Asian something to fear?

After a man was violently dragged from a United Airline flight, there will no doubt be defences of the company along the lines of, “Well, if the man had obeyed he wouldn’t have been dragged off the plane.” In frank terms, this is bull.

The fear aboard United Express Flight 3411 should alarm all thinking people about how the American mind has been trained to obey above all else. Obedience is a relentless message in the United States, drilled into the populace via education, business, government – and, of course, the threat and reality of police violence.

As George Carlin put it, the American ruling class doesn’t “want well-informed, well-educated people capable of critical thinking”. Rather, it wants “obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork, and just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly shittier jobs.”

Was this was an act of racial violence? Let’s look at what we know.
Cheers & Safe Travels. ^
uggboy is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2017, 6:16 am
  #2417  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Programs: LH SEN; BA Gold
Posts: 8,405
Originally Posted by HoustonConsultant
Wait, you are supposed to wait until the crew asks you to do this?

That explains all the dirty looks I got, but the tipping from the folks in first class was nice.
You're certainly redefining inflight entertainment.
WorldLux is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2017, 6:17 am
  #2418  
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 259
Re: United's Asian clients/business. I can guarantee you that this episode would be perceived as even more shocking in many Asian cultures than from an American perspective. Do you know that many Asian airline stewards/stewardesses lower themselves down to the floor to speak to customers at eye level especially in premium cabins? You can make the point this is too subservient (and I would agree), but this is the benchmark to which United Airlines' actions would be compared!
simpletastes is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2017, 6:19 am
  #2419  
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Programs: UA Gold, AA DL
Posts: 25
Originally Posted by NFH
Isn't it? Unless he was obliged, either through a contractual obligation or through legislation (and nobody has quoted the relevant legislation), to obey the crew's command to do so, he was not wrong to refuse.
yes, he is obliged to follow any crew member instructions, in the US there is wide latitude in this area. The crew can remove you for basically any reason or no reason at all. That said, if the removal was for an unlawful reason such as discrimination against a protected class of individual, i.e. protected race, gender, age, religion, etc. then they would be wide open to a lawsuit. As others have pointed out, usually after you fail to respect the crew, they are going to ask for your removal, I've seen it happen for things as petty as someone not wanting to store their bag in the overhead compartment.:

here are the US Code sections which are relevant to crewmember instructions.
for part 121 flights (major air carriers)

http://rgl.faa.gov/regulatory_and_gu...!OpenDocument#

for part 135 flights (charter operations)

http://rgl.faa.gov/regulatory_and_gu...on=2#_Section2

another poster already put this up which is some plan english analysis from a defense attorney based on case law.

http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com...crewmember.htm

Last edited by jwh212; Apr 11, 2017 at 6:25 am
jwh212 is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2017, 6:21 am
  #2420  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,012
Originally Posted by worldtrav
Not true, I suggest you read the wiki or read through the the thread. An airline (not just UA) can remove anyone per the COC for overbooking, it is a lawful practice. The business contract you refer to is simply that the air carrier will transport you from point A to point B and nothing else. Technically, it doesn't even have to be on an aircraft as long as they get you to the destination you have "contracted" for they have fulfilled their obligation.
I don't know that a passenger would be aware this could happen even if they had read the CoC. In the case of overbooking it states one might be "denied boarding." Not sure how many think they can be "denied boarding" after they have already 'boarded' the plane.
trouble747 is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2017, 6:23 am
  #2421  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Cockeysville, MD
Programs: Marriott Rewards Lifetime Titanium, Amex Plat, Hertz Gold 5*, National Exec, AA Plat
Posts: 9,467
Originally Posted by COMMONC3NTS
If they keep increasing the incentive they 100% would have got 4 volunteers.
Although they didn't go higher than $800, CNN talking head said the max by law is $1350 for an offer. Not sure if that's accurate, but not sure why there would be a limit that low before forcing a passenger off a plane.
Mr. Vker is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2017, 6:24 am
  #2422  
NFH
Suspended
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: London (LCY)
Programs: BA bronze, Hilton gold, Marriott gold, IHG plat, Meliá gold, Radisson gold, Hyatt disc, AmexPlat
Posts: 977
Originally Posted by jwh212
here are the US Code sections which are relevant to crewmember instructions.
for part 121 flights (major air carriers)

http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com...rewmember.htm#

for part 135 flights (charter operations)

http://rgl.faa.gov/regulatory_and_gu...on=2#_Section2

another poster already put this up which is some plan english analysis from a defense attorney based on case law.

http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com...crewmember.htm
You haven't quoted the legislation, but merely someone's commentary on it. I looked up the legislation mentioned in the above links, and nothing in it refers to obeying instructions of crew; only the commentary refers to it.
NFH is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2017, 6:24 am
  #2423  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: somewhere north of stateside...
Posts: 4,153
Originally Posted by worldtrav
An airline (not just UA) can remove anyone per the COC for overbooking, it is a lawful practice.
I entirely agree with you when passengers have not yet been boarded.

I'm not convinced that this case is so cut and dry, however given that the passenger had already been boarded.

You may not think its germane, but all references in United's conditions of carriage [the contract] address 'boarding'. The passenger was clearly boarded by the airline.

A court or the DOT would have to make a ruling on what this means in the context of such a situation. I would, however, be extraordinarily surprised if United's COC isn't updated in the coming days to give the airlines more rights to pull off passengers at any time until flight departure.

The current contract language is not airtight.
makin'miles is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2017, 6:27 am
  #2424  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,012
Originally Posted by makin'miles
The current contract language is not airtight.
It definitely isn't, given that "boarding" isn't defined in a way other than its ordinary usage and other parts of the contract refer to the removal of passengers from a plane using different language.
trouble747 is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2017, 6:27 am
  #2425  
NFH
Suspended
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: London (LCY)
Programs: BA bronze, Hilton gold, Marriott gold, IHG plat, Meliá gold, Radisson gold, Hyatt disc, AmexPlat
Posts: 977
Originally Posted by trouble747
I don't know that a passenger would be aware this could happen even if they had read the CoC. In the case of overbooking it states one might be "denied boarding." Not sure how many think they can be "denied boarding" after they have already 'boarded' the plane.
Exactly. Unless someone can quote case law where "denied boarding" was interpreted to mean removal of a passenger who had already boarded, then we have to assume that denial of boarding cannot apply to a passenger who has already boarded; the boarding is a fait accompli.
NFH is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2017, 6:28 am
  #2426  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: somewhere north of stateside...
Posts: 4,153
Originally Posted by Mr. Vker
Although they didn't go higher than $800, CNN talking head said the max by law is $1350 for an offer. Not sure if that's accurate, but not sure why there would be a limit that low before forcing a passenger off a plane.
The $1350 is a cash payment and the maximum that United is required to pay (in cash/cheque) for a involuntary denied boarding on a domestic flight.

United is not constrained by law in the amounts of compensation that it can offer to passengers as an incentive to accept a voluntary denied boarding. They could offer ten thousands of dollars in vouchers, free flights, club memberships, lunch with Oscar - anything. Constraints faced by United employees in attracting volunteers are the result of company policies/decisions, not law.
makin'miles is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2017, 6:31 am
  #2427  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: National Capitol Region
Programs: Delta Dirt Medallion,AA,USairways, WN Rapid Rewards, National Emerald Club
Posts: 3,912
Originally Posted by Mr. Vker
Although they didn't go higher than $800, CNN talking head said the max by law is $1350 for an offer. Not sure if that's accurate, but not sure why there would be a limit that low before forcing a passenger off a plane.
That's the max compensation required for Involuntarily Denied Boarding (IDB). There is no limit to what an airline can offer to get volunteers. In fact the regulations say that a carrier is supposed to ensure to the extent practical that passengers volunteer and are not IDBed.
hazelrah is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2017, 6:32 am
  #2428  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 181
Originally Posted by simpletastes
Re: United's Asian clients/business. I can guarantee you that this episode would be perceived as even more shocking in many Asian cultures than from an American perspective. Do you know that many Asian airline stewards/stewardesses lower themselves down to the floor to speak to customers at eye level especially in premium cabins? You can make the point this is too subservient (and I would agree), but this is the benchmark to which United Airlines' actions would be compared!
I still won't fly Korean Air because of the "Nutrage" incident.... Wait, who am I kidding?
MCIUnitedGuy is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2017, 6:33 am
  #2429  
Hyatt Contributor BadgeMarriott Contributor Badge
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
Programs: HH Diamond, Marriott Titanium/LTG, IHG Platinum
Posts: 1,921
Originally Posted by makin'miles
The $1350 is a cash payment and the maximum that United is required to pay (in cash/cheque) for a involuntary denied boarding on a domestic flight.

United is not constrained by law in the amounts of compensation that it can offer to passengers as an incentive to accept a voluntary denied boarding. They could offer ten thousands of dollars in vouchers, free flights, club memberships, lunch with Oscar - anything. Constraints faced by United employees in attracting volunteers are the result of company policies/decisions, not law.
Correct, if $800 is not enough ... the airline has discretion to raise it, everyone has a price.
alanslegal is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2017, 6:36 am
  #2430  
Formerly known as scootr29
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 977
Why all these FAA rules on how passengers should respect authority, but very limited FAA rules on how airlines should respect passengers. CMMMMMMM
SSF556 is offline  


Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.