Apr 10, 2017, 8:42 pm
Last edit by: WineCountryUA
WELCOME, THREAD GUIDELINES and SUMMARY PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING
If you are new to us, welcome to FlyerTalk! Who we are: FlyerTalk features discussions and chat boards that cover the most up-to-date traveler information; an interactive community dedicated to the topic of travel (not politics or arguments about politics or religion, etc. – those discussion are best in the OMNI forum)
The incident discussed in this thread has touched a nerve for many, and many posters are passionate about their opinions and concerns. However we should still have a civil and respectful discussion of this topic. This is because FlyerTalk is meant to be a friendly, helpful, and collegial community. (Rule 12.)
1. The normal FlyerTalk Rules apply. (Including not discussing moderation actions in thread). Please be particularly attentive to "discussing the idea and not the poster" when you have a disagreement. Civility and mutual respect are still expected and are what we owe each other as a community.
2. You are expected to respect the FlyerTalk community's diversity, and therefore refrain from posting inflammatory comments about race, religion, culture, politics, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. Do not cite, copy, or report on such.
3. While you can disagree with an opinion, the holder of that opinion has the same right to their opinion as you have to yours. We request all to respect that and disagree or discuss their point of views without getting overly personal and without attacking the other poster(s). This is expected as a requirement in FT Rule 12.
4. Overly exaggerative posts as well as posts with information that has been posted several times previously may be summarily deleted.
5. In addition, those who repeatedly fail to comply with FlyerTalk Rules, may be subjected to FlyerTalk disciplinary actions and, e.g., have membership privileges suspended, or masked from this forum.
If you have questions about the Rules or concerns about what another has posted in this or other threads in this forum, please do not post about that. Rather, notify the moderators by using the alert symbol within each post or email or send a private message to us moderators.
Let’s have this discussion in a way that, when we look back on it, we can be proud of how we handled ourselves as a community.
The United Moderator team:
J.Edward
l'etoile
Ocn Vw 1K
Pat89339
WineCountryUA
N.B. PLEASE do not alter the contents of this moderator note
CHICAGO, April 27, 2017 /PRNewswire/ -- We are pleased to report that United and Dr. Dao have reached an amicable resolution of the unfortunate incident that occurred aboard flight 3411. We look forward to implementing the improvements we have announced, which will put our customers at the center of everything we do.
What facts do we know?
- UA3411, operated by Republic Airways, ORD-SDF on Sunday, April 9, 2017. UA3411 was the second to last flight to SDF for United. AA3509 and UA4771 were the two remaining departures for the day. Also, AA and DL had connecting options providing for same-day arrival in SDF.
- After the flight was fully boarded, United determined four seats were needed to accommodate crew to SDF for a flight on Monday.
- United solicited volunteers for VDB. (BUT stopped at $800 in UA$s, not cash). Chose not to go to the levels such as 1350 that airlines have been known to go even in case of weather impacted disruption)
- After receiving no volunteers for $800 vouchers, a passenger volunteered for $1,600 and was "laughed at" and refused, United determined four passengers to be removed from the flight.
- One passenger refused and Chicago Aviation Security Officers were called to forcibly remove the passenger.
- The passenger hit the armrest in the aisle and received a concussion, a broken nose, a bloodied lip, and the loss of two teeth.
- After being removed from the plane, the passenger re-boarded saying "I need to go home" repeatedly, before being removed again.
- United spokesman Jonathan Guerin said the flight was sold out — but not oversold. Instead, United and regional affiliate Republic Airlines – the unit that operated Flight 3411 – decided they had to remove four passengers from the flight to accommodate crewmembers who were needed in Louisville the next day for a “downline connection.”
United Express Flight 3411 Review and Action Report - released 27 April 2017
Videos
- Passenger one row behind and on the aisle footage BEFORE man was dragged off https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=655_1492004707
- Videos of man being removed https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4b7_1491983214 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nAZEk6nsNE
- Video of man re-entering plane https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNEQDWpYbZA (link dead)
Internal Communication by Oscar Munoz
Oscar Munoz sent an internal communication to UA employees (sources: View From The Wing, Chicago Tribune):
Dear Team,
Like you, I was upset to see and hear about what happened last night aboard United Express Flight 3411 headed from Chicago to Louisville. While the facts and circumstances are still evolving, especially with respect to why this customer defied Chicago Aviation Security Officers the way he did, to give you a clearer picture of what transpired, I've included below a recap from the preliminary reports filed by our employees.
As you will read, this situation was unfortunately compounded when one of the passengers we politely asked to deplane refused and it became necessary to contact Chicago Aviation Security Officers to help. Our employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this. While I deeply regret this situation arose, I also emphatically stand behind all of you, and I want to commend you for continuing to go above and beyond to ensure we fly right.
I do, however, believe there are lessons we can learn from this experience, and we are taking a close look at the circumstances surrounding this incident. Treating our customers and each other with respect and dignity is at the core of who we are, and we must always remember this no matter how challenging the situation.
Oscar
Summary of Flight 3411
Like you, I was upset to see and hear about what happened last night aboard United Express Flight 3411 headed from Chicago to Louisville. While the facts and circumstances are still evolving, especially with respect to why this customer defied Chicago Aviation Security Officers the way he did, to give you a clearer picture of what transpired, I've included below a recap from the preliminary reports filed by our employees.
As you will read, this situation was unfortunately compounded when one of the passengers we politely asked to deplane refused and it became necessary to contact Chicago Aviation Security Officers to help. Our employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this. While I deeply regret this situation arose, I also emphatically stand behind all of you, and I want to commend you for continuing to go above and beyond to ensure we fly right.
I do, however, believe there are lessons we can learn from this experience, and we are taking a close look at the circumstances surrounding this incident. Treating our customers and each other with respect and dignity is at the core of who we are, and we must always remember this no matter how challenging the situation.
Oscar
Summary of Flight 3411
- On Sunday, April 9, after United Express Flight 3411 was fully boarded, United's gate agents were approached by crewmembers that were told they needed to board the flight.
- We sought volunteers and then followed our involuntary denial of boarding process (including offering up to $1,000 in compensation) and when we approached one of these passengers to explain apologetically that he was being denied boarding, he raised his voice and refused to comply with crew member instructions.
- He was approached a few more times after that in order to gain his compliance to come off the aircraft, and each time he refused and became more and more disruptive and belligerent.
- Our agents were left with no choice but to call Chicago Aviation Security Officers to assist in removing the customer from the flight. He repeatedly declined to leave.
- Chicago Aviation Security Officers were unable to gain his cooperation and physically removed him from the flight as he continued to resist - running back onto the aircraft in defiance of both our crew and security officials.
Dear Team,
The truly horrific event that occurred on this flight has elicited many responses from all of us: outrage, anger, disappointment. I share all of those sentiments, and one above all: my deepest apologies for what happened. Like you, I continue to be disturbed by what happened on this flight and I deeply apologize to the customer forcibly removed and to all the customers aboard. No one should ever be mistreated this way.
I want you to know that we take full responsibility and we will work to make it right.
It’s never too late to do the right thing. I have committed to our customers and our employees that we are going to fix what’s broken so this never happens again. This will include a thorough review of crew movement, our policies for incentivizing volunteers in these situations, how we handle oversold situations and an examination of how we partner with airport authorities and local law enforcement. We’ll communicate the results of our review by April 30th.
I promise you we will do better.
Sincerely,
Oscar
The truly horrific event that occurred on this flight has elicited many responses from all of us: outrage, anger, disappointment. I share all of those sentiments, and one above all: my deepest apologies for what happened. Like you, I continue to be disturbed by what happened on this flight and I deeply apologize to the customer forcibly removed and to all the customers aboard. No one should ever be mistreated this way.
I want you to know that we take full responsibility and we will work to make it right.
It’s never too late to do the right thing. I have committed to our customers and our employees that we are going to fix what’s broken so this never happens again. This will include a thorough review of crew movement, our policies for incentivizing volunteers in these situations, how we handle oversold situations and an examination of how we partner with airport authorities and local law enforcement. We’ll communicate the results of our review by April 30th.
I promise you we will do better.
Sincerely,
Oscar
Each flight you take with us represents an important promise we make to you, our customer. It's not simply that we make sure you reach your destination safely and on time, but also that you will be treated with the highest level of service and the deepest sense of dignity and respect.
Earlier this month, we broke that trust when a passenger was forcibly removed from one of our planes. We can never say we are sorry enough for what occurred, but we also know meaningful actions will speak louder than words.
For the past several weeks, we have been urgently working to answer two questions: How did this happen, and how can we do our best to ensure this never happens again?
It happened because our corporate policies were placed ahead of our shared values. Our procedures got in the way of our employees doing what they know is right.
Fixing that problem starts now with changing how we fly, serve and respect our customers. This is a turning point for all of us here at United – and as CEO, it's my responsibility to make sure that we learn from this experience and redouble our efforts to put our customers at the center of everything we do.
That’s why we announced that we will no longer ask law enforcement to remove customers from a flight and customers will not be required to give up their seat once on board – except in matters of safety or security.
We also know that despite our best efforts, when things don’t go the way they should, we need to be there for you to make things right. There are several new ways we’re going to do just that.
We will increase incentives for voluntary rebooking up to $10,000 and will be eliminating the red tape on permanently lost bags with a new "no-questions-asked" $1,500 reimbursement policy. We will also be rolling out a new app for our employees that will enable them to provide on-the-spot goodwill gestures in the form of miles, travel credit and other amenities when your experience with us misses the mark. You can learn more about these commitments and many other changes at hub.united.com.
While these actions are important, I have found myself reflecting more broadly on the role we play and the responsibilities we have to you and the communities we serve.
I believe we must go further in redefining what United's corporate citizenship looks like in our society. If our chief good as a company is only getting you to and from your destination, that would show a lack of moral imagination on our part. You can and ought to expect more from us, and we intend to live up to those higher expectations in the way we embody social responsibility and civic leadership everywhere we operate. I hope you will see that pledge express itself in our actions going forward, of which these initial, though important, changes are merely a first step.
Our goal should be nothing less than to make you truly proud to say, "I fly United."
Ultimately, the measure of our success is your satisfaction and the past several weeks have moved us to go further than ever before in elevating your experience with us. I know our 87,000 employees have taken this message to heart, and they are as energized as ever to fulfill our promise to serve you better with each flight and earn the trust you’ve given us.
We are working harder than ever for the privilege to serve you and I know we will be stronger, better and the customer-focused airline you expect and deserve.
With Great Gratitude,
Oscar Munoz
CEO
United Airlines
Earlier this month, we broke that trust when a passenger was forcibly removed from one of our planes. We can never say we are sorry enough for what occurred, but we also know meaningful actions will speak louder than words.
For the past several weeks, we have been urgently working to answer two questions: How did this happen, and how can we do our best to ensure this never happens again?
It happened because our corporate policies were placed ahead of our shared values. Our procedures got in the way of our employees doing what they know is right.
Fixing that problem starts now with changing how we fly, serve and respect our customers. This is a turning point for all of us here at United – and as CEO, it's my responsibility to make sure that we learn from this experience and redouble our efforts to put our customers at the center of everything we do.
That’s why we announced that we will no longer ask law enforcement to remove customers from a flight and customers will not be required to give up their seat once on board – except in matters of safety or security.
We also know that despite our best efforts, when things don’t go the way they should, we need to be there for you to make things right. There are several new ways we’re going to do just that.
We will increase incentives for voluntary rebooking up to $10,000 and will be eliminating the red tape on permanently lost bags with a new "no-questions-asked" $1,500 reimbursement policy. We will also be rolling out a new app for our employees that will enable them to provide on-the-spot goodwill gestures in the form of miles, travel credit and other amenities when your experience with us misses the mark. You can learn more about these commitments and many other changes at hub.united.com.
While these actions are important, I have found myself reflecting more broadly on the role we play and the responsibilities we have to you and the communities we serve.
I believe we must go further in redefining what United's corporate citizenship looks like in our society. If our chief good as a company is only getting you to and from your destination, that would show a lack of moral imagination on our part. You can and ought to expect more from us, and we intend to live up to those higher expectations in the way we embody social responsibility and civic leadership everywhere we operate. I hope you will see that pledge express itself in our actions going forward, of which these initial, though important, changes are merely a first step.
Our goal should be nothing less than to make you truly proud to say, "I fly United."
Ultimately, the measure of our success is your satisfaction and the past several weeks have moved us to go further than ever before in elevating your experience with us. I know our 87,000 employees have taken this message to heart, and they are as energized as ever to fulfill our promise to serve you better with each flight and earn the trust you’ve given us.
We are working harder than ever for the privilege to serve you and I know we will be stronger, better and the customer-focused airline you expect and deserve.
With Great Gratitude,
Oscar Munoz
CEO
United Airlines
- Chicago Aviation Department said on the Monday afternoon after the incident that the officer who had dragged the passenger off the plane had been placed on leave pending an investigation. Spokesperson Karen Pride said in an email that "The incident on United flight 3411 was not in accordance with our standard operating procedure and the actions of the aviation security officer are obviously not condoned by the Department."
- 4/12/17: Two more Chicago Aviation officers involved are suspended
- Muñoz does ABC interview, announcing United will no longer use law enforcement to remove passengers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90jSUe_vdhM
- United announces policy change that crews traveling on their aircraft must be booked at least 60 minutes prior to departure.
- United releases multiple changes in overbooking / denied boarding policies "We are making changes to ensure that we always put customers first" (http://newsroom.united.com/2017-04-2...mer-Experience) released 27 April 2017
- Statement from United Airlines Regarding Resolution with Dr. David Dao - released 27 April 2017
- Response to Senate Commerce Committee questions - 1 May 2017
- United Airlines PR Boss to Step Down
- James Long, one of several officers involved in removing David Dao from the April 9, 2017, flight to make room for airline employees, filed suit on Tuesday against United, Chicago’s Department of Aviation and its commissioner, Ginger Evans. The lawsuit, filed in the circuit court of Cook County, Illinois, alleges he was not properly trained on how to use force.
Poll: Your Opinion of United Airlines
Poll link: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/KP68GYG
Results link: https://www.surveymonkey.com/results...Q6B2B/instant/
Reference MaterialResults link: https://www.surveymonkey.com/results...Q6B2B/instant/
UA's Customer Commitment says:
Occasionally we may not be able to provide you with a seat on a specific flight, even if you hold a ticket, have checked in, are present to board on time, and comply with other requirements. This is called an oversale, and occurs when restrictions apply to operating a particular flight safely (such as aircraft weight limits); when we have to substitute a smaller aircraft in place of a larger aircraft that was originally scheduled; or if more customers have checked in and are prepared to board than we have available seats.
If your flight is in an oversale situation, you will not be denied a seat until we first ask for volunteers willing to give up their confirmed seats. If there are not enough volunteers, we will deny boarding to passengers in accordance with our written policy on boarding priority. If you are involuntarily denied boarding and have complied with our check-in and other applicable rules, we will give you a written statement that describes your rights and explains how we determine boarding priority for an oversold flight. You will generally be entitled to compensation and transportation on an alternate flight.
We make complete rules for the payment of compensation, as well as our policy about boarding priorities, available at airports we serve. We will follow these rules to ensure you are treated fairly. Please be aware that you may be denied boarding without compensation if you do not check in on time or do not meet certain other requirements, or if we offer you alternative transportation that is planned to arrive at your destination or first stopover no later than one hour after the planned arrival time of your original flight.
CoC is here: https://www.united.com/web/en-US/con...-carriage.aspxIf your flight is in an oversale situation, you will not be denied a seat until we first ask for volunteers willing to give up their confirmed seats. If there are not enough volunteers, we will deny boarding to passengers in accordance with our written policy on boarding priority. If you are involuntarily denied boarding and have complied with our check-in and other applicable rules, we will give you a written statement that describes your rights and explains how we determine boarding priority for an oversold flight. You will generally be entitled to compensation and transportation on an alternate flight.
We make complete rules for the payment of compensation, as well as our policy about boarding priorities, available at airports we serve. We will follow these rules to ensure you are treated fairly. Please be aware that you may be denied boarding without compensation if you do not check in on time or do not meet certain other requirements, or if we offer you alternative transportation that is planned to arrive at your destination or first stopover no later than one hour after the planned arrival time of your original flight.
Man pulled off of overbooked flight UA3411 (ORD-SDF) 9 Apr 2017 {Settlement reached}
Apr 12, 2017, 8:38 pm
#4456
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2014
Programs: Top Tier with all 3 alliances
Posts: 11,669
At least at his age should be able to retire after the settlement, because this public exposure could have affected his employability, had he been younger and needing to work.
Last edited by nk15; Apr 12, 2017 at 8:47 pm
Apr 12, 2017, 8:39 pm
#4457
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: LIT
Programs: Blinged Out
Posts: 716
That's a good point, which also explains the "just kill me", he was very embarrassed. I think aside from the physical injury, the public humiliation from the continuous exposure (on the plane and on international media and social media) was a big part of the issue here and the emotional injury part, and will be a big part of the settlement.
Apr 12, 2017, 8:41 pm
#4458
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SF Bay Area
Programs: MileagePlus
Posts: 412
I haven't read through all 298 pages of this thread so I apologize if this information has been previously posted.
I seems if Dr. Dao has a somewhat checked past and this may account for his reluctance to comply with law enforcement personnel.
From People.com human interest
Dao was arrested in 2003 as part of an undercover operation. Two years later, Dao was convicted on six felony counts of obtaining drugs by fraud and deceit and in 2005, he was sentenced to five years probation. Dao was also convicted for writing prescriptions and checks to a male patient in exchange for sexual favors.
In February 2005, Dao surrendered his license to practice medicine in Kentucky.
In response, the state medical licensing board issued a suspension that was lifted in 2015. But the board has since placed severe restrictions on Dao’s ability to practice internal medicine, which will be lifted on Feb. 28, 2018, according to documents obtained by PEOPLE.
State records indicate the board believes Dao’s practices are outdated.
Last year, the medical board imposed restrictions on his right to practice. He can only practice internal medicine in an outpatient facility one day a week.
I seems if Dr. Dao has a somewhat checked past and this may account for his reluctance to comply with law enforcement personnel.
From People.com human interest
Dao was arrested in 2003 as part of an undercover operation. Two years later, Dao was convicted on six felony counts of obtaining drugs by fraud and deceit and in 2005, he was sentenced to five years probation. Dao was also convicted for writing prescriptions and checks to a male patient in exchange for sexual favors.
In February 2005, Dao surrendered his license to practice medicine in Kentucky.
In response, the state medical licensing board issued a suspension that was lifted in 2015. But the board has since placed severe restrictions on Dao’s ability to practice internal medicine, which will be lifted on Feb. 28, 2018, according to documents obtained by PEOPLE.
State records indicate the board believes Dao’s practices are outdated.
Last year, the medical board imposed restrictions on his right to practice. He can only practice internal medicine in an outpatient facility one day a week.
Apr 12, 2017, 8:45 pm
#4459
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: EAU
Programs: UA 1K, CO Plat, NW Plat, Marriott Premiere Plat, SPG Plat, Priority Gold, Hilton Gold
Posts: 4,712
And apparently that day is Monday.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Apr 12, 2017 at 9:59 pm
Apr 12, 2017, 8:45 pm
#4460
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 30
It looks like based on further research, it's two different Dr. David Dao's. Different middle names. The checkered past doctor isn't the one involved.
Apr 12, 2017, 8:47 pm
#4461
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: SEA
Programs: AS MVP Gold75K
Posts: 850
Where did you get this information? Do you have a link?
Apr 12, 2017, 8:47 pm
#4462
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 30
I don't think his info is correct. Too much info has come out contradicting this. Plus the video of him seated on the plane with the LEOs demanding he get off. So I highly doubt any of that is true.
For what it it's worth, it's been stated over and over, the computer "randomly" picked him. But UA has not posted how the algorithm chooses who to pick.
For what it it's worth, it's been stated over and over, the computer "randomly" picked him. But UA has not posted how the algorithm chooses who to pick.
Apr 12, 2017, 8:48 pm
#4463
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: BOS
Posts: 20
Sort of reminds me of all the old train problems. A train is approaching a switch, out of control. In one direction, a baby is on the track. In the other, 3 old people are on the track. The engineer controls the switch, which way is more moral?
In this case, United had two choices. They could cancel multiple flights the next day -- no crew for the first flight, no equipment for the second, etc, or they could remove 4 pax from a full flight. Yes, I've heard people think otherwise. For every "why don't they do X?" I simply ask "What can't the 4 pax do X?"
The GA and the others face penalties if the airline does not run smoothly. Cancelling a flight would not only inconvenience hundreds, but a crew is also not paid. If too many flights leave late, the FAA fines the airline. There may even be employee bonuses and rewards for on time performance.
There are many good ideas in this thread. More compensation. Better explanation of policies. More polite behavior from the supervisor. Yes! All this will help! But it will not solve the problem because there will always be a situation -- a cancelled flight here, a mechanical issue there, a problem with ATC, that will cause some flights to have more people wanting to be on them then there are seats available. Every case discussed involves full cooperation from everyone involved.
I keep thinking, what if I were booked on the flight the next morning, and I learned it had been cancelled because of a single person not following instructions. What would I think? Would I be a happy customer? Or would I think, why can one person keep me from flying?
The airline should have been as nice as nice could be, offered more compensation, explained to everyone how anyone not a volunteer would get cash and would get to their destination as soon as possible. But this was a Sunday, and people needed to get to work the next day. They were already in seats. Its time to go.
When the person offered to leave for a $1600 voucher, that could have triggered more negotiation. Had it been me, I would have tried to get three other people to agree to the sum. Airlines shouldn't fear writing vouchers because most of the time, they are not used.
I still hearken back to the previous point though. If you must choose someone and they say no, what other choice exists?
That is the situation the train faces. Hundreds, maybe a thousand, on one track. 4 on the other. What is the moral choice?
In this case, United had two choices. They could cancel multiple flights the next day -- no crew for the first flight, no equipment for the second, etc, or they could remove 4 pax from a full flight. Yes, I've heard people think otherwise. For every "why don't they do X?" I simply ask "What can't the 4 pax do X?"
The GA and the others face penalties if the airline does not run smoothly. Cancelling a flight would not only inconvenience hundreds, but a crew is also not paid. If too many flights leave late, the FAA fines the airline. There may even be employee bonuses and rewards for on time performance.
There are many good ideas in this thread. More compensation. Better explanation of policies. More polite behavior from the supervisor. Yes! All this will help! But it will not solve the problem because there will always be a situation -- a cancelled flight here, a mechanical issue there, a problem with ATC, that will cause some flights to have more people wanting to be on them then there are seats available. Every case discussed involves full cooperation from everyone involved.
I keep thinking, what if I were booked on the flight the next morning, and I learned it had been cancelled because of a single person not following instructions. What would I think? Would I be a happy customer? Or would I think, why can one person keep me from flying?
The airline should have been as nice as nice could be, offered more compensation, explained to everyone how anyone not a volunteer would get cash and would get to their destination as soon as possible. But this was a Sunday, and people needed to get to work the next day. They were already in seats. Its time to go.
When the person offered to leave for a $1600 voucher, that could have triggered more negotiation. Had it been me, I would have tried to get three other people to agree to the sum. Airlines shouldn't fear writing vouchers because most of the time, they are not used.
I still hearken back to the previous point though. If you must choose someone and they say no, what other choice exists?
That is the situation the train faces. Hundreds, maybe a thousand, on one track. 4 on the other. What is the moral choice?
Apr 12, 2017, 8:52 pm
#4464
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,319
This is a false dichotomy. There is no such choice in this case.
Apr 12, 2017, 8:53 pm
#4465
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,203
I just need to say I do not care this guy is a doctor. I agree that the GA handled this poorly, but the passenger handled it worse!
If I am flying to my wedding and my flight is delayed and I cry "But I am going to miss my own wedding" how is that UA's problam?! Right, it isn't!
If I am flying to my wedding and my flight is delayed and I cry "But I am going to miss my own wedding" how is that UA's problam?! Right, it isn't!
there is difference between "crying over delayed flight" and how this guy was treated???
the rest of the civilized world has reacted and even UA's CEO has now reacted
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Apr 12, 2017 at 9:01 pm Reason: Discuss the issues, not the poster(s)
Apr 12, 2017, 8:56 pm
#4466
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: EAU
Programs: UA 1K, CO Plat, NW Plat, Marriott Premiere Plat, SPG Plat, Priority Gold, Hilton Gold
Posts: 4,712
He was asked to leave by the employees of the owner of the property he was on. He refused. That's wrong.
He was asked to leave by law enforcement personnel. He refused. That's wrong.
Law enforcement personnel warned him that if he did not leave willingly, they would drag him off the plane. He told them to drag him off the plane.
Law enforcement commenced dragging him off the plane.
The passenger was absolutely wrong.
Anyone can ask you to leave their property at any time, and the only acceptable response is to leave their property. If you refuse to leave their property, law enforcement will show up and they will remove you, by force if necessary, and if you force law enforcement to use force to remove you, you accept the risk that you will be injured in the result.*
That's not to say it's always legal for someone to ask you to leave their property. But if it isn't legal, say the business is a restaurant that makes all black people leave, or making you leave the property violates a contract you have with the property owner, that gets addressed later, after you have left the property. You don't get to just hang around in the meantime. Once law enforcement tells you to leave, you must leave.
* Assuming law enforcement uses reasonable force. The initial force used was reasonable in this case, but once the passenger hit his head, use of force should have ended and medical assistance should have been provided. The law enforcement agency will lose the lawsuit on that one and the officers will probably lose their jobs.
United is the one party here that did not do something wrong. Well, accept the horrible handling of the PR afterwards.
Apr 12, 2017, 8:59 pm
#4467
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Bellevue, WA - AA EXP 3MM
Posts: 2,756
I'm suddenly remembering United throwing a passenger off for taking a single photo with his iPhone. http://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.c...king-pictures/ . We're lucky to have the excellent video+audio evidence we do. Yet every such recording violates United's claimed prohibition on photographing or audio or video recording of other customers or airline personnel.
Could one additional change, resulting from this unfortunate situation, be that United is forced to cease prohibiting video recording? In this case, at least, video recording protected everyone and got the truth out. My instinct is that it should be praised, not banned.
Could one additional change, resulting from this unfortunate situation, be that United is forced to cease prohibiting video recording? In this case, at least, video recording protected everyone and got the truth out. My instinct is that it should be praised, not banned.
Apr 12, 2017, 9:02 pm
#4468
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Programs: AA ex-EXP, 2MM (ex DL, ex TWA)
Posts: 1,429
I haven't read through all 298 pages of this thread so I apologize if this information has been previously posted.
I seems if Dr. Dao has a somewhat checked past and this may account for his reluctance to comply with law enforcement personnel.
From People.com human interest
Dao was arrested in 2003 as part of an undercover operation. Two years later, Dao was convicted on six felony counts of obtaining drugs by fraud and deceit and in 2005, he was sentenced to five years probation. Dao was also convicted for writing prescriptions and checks to a male patient in exchange for sexual favors.
In February 2005, Dao surrendered his license to practice medicine in Kentucky.
In response, the state medical licensing board issued a suspension that was lifted in 2015. But the board has since placed severe restrictions on Dao’s ability to practice internal medicine, which will be lifted on Feb. 28, 2018, according to documents obtained by PEOPLE.
State records indicate the board believes Dao’s practices are outdated.
Last year, the medical board imposed restrictions on his right to practice. He can only practice internal medicine in an outpatient facility one day a week.
I seems if Dr. Dao has a somewhat checked past and this may account for his reluctance to comply with law enforcement personnel.
From People.com human interest
Dao was arrested in 2003 as part of an undercover operation. Two years later, Dao was convicted on six felony counts of obtaining drugs by fraud and deceit and in 2005, he was sentenced to five years probation. Dao was also convicted for writing prescriptions and checks to a male patient in exchange for sexual favors.
In February 2005, Dao surrendered his license to practice medicine in Kentucky.
In response, the state medical licensing board issued a suspension that was lifted in 2015. But the board has since placed severe restrictions on Dao’s ability to practice internal medicine, which will be lifted on Feb. 28, 2018, according to documents obtained by PEOPLE.
State records indicate the board believes Dao’s practices are outdated.
Last year, the medical board imposed restrictions on his right to practice. He can only practice internal medicine in an outpatient facility one day a week.
Apr 12, 2017, 9:02 pm
#4469
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: EAU
Programs: UA 1K, CO Plat, NW Plat, Marriott Premiere Plat, SPG Plat, Priority Gold, Hilton Gold
Posts: 4,712
It is entirely supposition on my part, based on the information I had read in numerous places that he had originally volunteered, and then changed his mind when he found out about the schedule.
Assuming that's the case, I find the most likely situation is that he was selected for IDB as a result of his initial request to volunteer rather than whatever the prescribed system for selecting passengers to IDB is, likely because he had already been offloaded in the system.
If he really did NEVER volunteer to take the VDB, then I'm obviously off the reservation here. But if he did, I'm almost certain he ended up being one fo the four IDBs as a result of the initial willingness to VDB.
Assuming that's the case, I find the most likely situation is that he was selected for IDB as a result of his initial request to volunteer rather than whatever the prescribed system for selecting passengers to IDB is, likely because he had already been offloaded in the system.
If he really did NEVER volunteer to take the VDB, then I'm obviously off the reservation here. But if he did, I'm almost certain he ended up being one fo the four IDBs as a result of the initial willingness to VDB.
Apr 12, 2017, 9:05 pm
#4470
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,970
I'm suddenly remembering United throwing a passenger off for taking a single photo with his iPhone. http://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.c...king-pictures/ . We're lucky to have the excellent video+audio evidence we do. Yet every such recording violates United's claimed prohibition on photographing or audio or video recording of other customers or airline personnel.
Could one additional change, resulting from this unfortunate situation, be that United is forced to cease prohibiting video recording? In this case, at least, video recording protected everyone and got the truth out. My instinct is that it should be praised, not banned.
Could one additional change, resulting from this unfortunate situation, be that United is forced to cease prohibiting video recording? In this case, at least, video recording protected everyone and got the truth out. My instinct is that it should be praised, not banned.