WOW...The Pat Down Has Actually Gotten Worse
Dec 14, 2010, 2:37 pm
#106
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: BOS
Programs: UA 1P
Posts: 1,356
I find this a very worthy contribution. Thank you, JennyElf.
I asked the question as an intellectual exercise; I hope you read it as such.
To explicate a bit: Personally, I am incensed at this whole insane Theater of the Simply Absurd. And in protest, and putting my money where my mouth is, I will never fly again commercially. But my heart goes out to those who must, for whatever reason, continue to fly.
As for those who have no such pressing need but continue to fly, saying, "Well, that's just what we have to put up with," I am asking if, morally, they are not in the same position as those who continue employment with an abusive agency, telling themselves, "Well, that's what we have to put up with."
At some point, is not the obligation upon the customer/employee to say, "I've had enough"?
I asked the question as an intellectual exercise; I hope you read it as such.
To explicate a bit: Personally, I am incensed at this whole insane Theater of the Simply Absurd. And in protest, and putting my money where my mouth is, I will never fly again commercially. But my heart goes out to those who must, for whatever reason, continue to fly.
As for those who have no such pressing need but continue to fly, saying, "Well, that's just what we have to put up with," I am asking if, morally, they are not in the same position as those who continue employment with an abusive agency, telling themselves, "Well, that's what we have to put up with."
At some point, is not the obligation upon the customer/employee to say, "I've had enough"?
I think again this goes with actions, the FF is not asking the TSA to violate them in order to fly, the FF is told "either you give up some measure of your 4th Amendment rights or you don't fly (and possibly get arrested)". If the FF could fly w/o having to have their 4th amendment rights violated, then I'm sure they would do so and would not seek out a screener and demand them to violate the 4th amendment and search them before flying (also doing so wouldn't be a violation any more since the FF had explicitly asked for the pat-down or scan).
Similar arguments have been made in assault or robbery cases: ie if the victim does not protest or fight back but just willingly goes along with the assault or robbery, then no crime occurred. However, the onus is not on the victim to fight back or protest, but only to survive the assault so that they can fight back via the legal system if they wish. The onus is on the one who commits the assault not to do so in the first place. If you go for a walk and someone threatens you to give up your wallet and you just give it to them, that person still robbed you even though you didn't fight back or try to keep your wallet and that person can still be charged with robbery. The same applies here.
Dec 14, 2010, 4:26 pm
#107
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Northern California, in the redwoods, on the ocean.
Posts: 437
Well, if a mugger surprises me and tries to take my purse and I give it to him to avoid serious bodily injury, isn't that a little different than my continuing to walk into a known den of thieves?
Dec 14, 2010, 4:46 pm
#108
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Southern California
Posts: 898
Not any more than leaving the doors unlocked constitutes a consent for anybody to come in and help themselves to any of your property.
Dec 14, 2010, 7:35 pm
#110
Join Date: May 2010
Location: FLL - Nice and Warm
Programs: TSA Disparager Gold
Posts: 1,025
An article on WTVD-TV Raleigh-Durham, NC about genital groping at RDU.
http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?se...cal&id=7843879
http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?se...cal&id=7843879
The couple of dozen complaints filed on the airport's website since late October read like a trashy novel with statements like; "they put their ... hands down my underwear," ... "feeling all up his legs including the testicles," ... "hitting up wards in my groin area."
Dec 14, 2010, 8:42 pm
#111
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,051
They don't know if the person is a sheeple and will submit (and maybe even thank them for feeling safe), someone who will say sexually suggestive things about touching genitals, someone who will call them a pervert or otherwise insult them, or someone who will cold-cock them.
Dec 14, 2010, 9:57 pm
#112
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 962
Re. the 'flyers made the TSA do it' thing:
I've successfully sued telemarketers a couple times before, for violation of federal and/or CA law (e.g. the TCPA). One defense that they bring up is to say "well, he didn't actively try to stop us, he just kept collecting calls" (when e.g. I present a list of separate incidents each of which has a statutory violation worth ~$1500).
Thing is, some actions are intrinsically illegal. The plaintiff has zero responsibility to prevent the defendant from doing them, even if they could have, if the plaintiff was themselves acting legally. I can dig up the court case cites on this if you want.
It's not quite the same situation, but legal theory wise it's quite similar.
Violation of constitutional rights, and certainly any kind of assault or battery, are such actions. The ONLY major defenses to either are
a) informed consent as far as the defendant reasonably believed
b) committed under explicit legal authority (e.g. cops can commit what's otherwise aggravated assault & battery when making an arrest, IF justified)
So... no, the TSA can't use "they made us do it by flying" as a defense. Nor can they use "they consented" as a defense to a use of power that they didn't have the authority to exercise in the first place, because consent was only obtained under color of law.
... I should probably pick up a JD one of these days. Feh, so many interests, so little lifespan.
I've successfully sued telemarketers a couple times before, for violation of federal and/or CA law (e.g. the TCPA). One defense that they bring up is to say "well, he didn't actively try to stop us, he just kept collecting calls" (when e.g. I present a list of separate incidents each of which has a statutory violation worth ~$1500).
Thing is, some actions are intrinsically illegal. The plaintiff has zero responsibility to prevent the defendant from doing them, even if they could have, if the plaintiff was themselves acting legally. I can dig up the court case cites on this if you want.
It's not quite the same situation, but legal theory wise it's quite similar.
Violation of constitutional rights, and certainly any kind of assault or battery, are such actions. The ONLY major defenses to either are
a) informed consent as far as the defendant reasonably believed
b) committed under explicit legal authority (e.g. cops can commit what's otherwise aggravated assault & battery when making an arrest, IF justified)
So... no, the TSA can't use "they made us do it by flying" as a defense. Nor can they use "they consented" as a defense to a use of power that they didn't have the authority to exercise in the first place, because consent was only obtained under color of law.
... I should probably pick up a JD one of these days. Feh, so many interests, so little lifespan.
Dec 15, 2010, 4:10 am
#113
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: DTW
Programs: DL 0.22 MM, AA 0.34 MM, PC Plat Amb, Hertz #1 GC 5*
Posts: 7,511
An article on WTVD-TV Raleigh-Durham, NC about genital groping at RDU.
http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?se...cal&id=7843879
http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?se...cal&id=7843879
Dec 15, 2010, 6:59 am
#114
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 107
The civil rights violation complaint form I created for the opt-out grope shows the complaint is going to the ACLU with copies to the TSA and my 2 senators. We've seen TSA only reacts when outside pressure is used. I want TSA to know that records of their actions are being noted and are being made public.
Dec 15, 2010, 7:04 am
#115
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Salish Sea
Programs: DL,AC,HH,PC
Posts: 8,974
Nobody with a brain believes the TSA statistics anyway.
Dec 15, 2010, 9:40 am
#116
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: DTW
Programs: DL 0.22 MM, AA 0.34 MM, PC Plat Amb, Hertz #1 GC 5*
Posts: 7,511
I'm saying do both. IIRC, the TSA complaint page issues a tracking number. Who cares if they do anything about it... showing the media the tracking number indicates you attempted to follow their process. One hurdle at a time...
Dec 16, 2010, 1:56 am
#117
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,051
This article is not from TSA. A "travel writer" wrote it (or so it says) but Karin Rubin seems to have drained a full glass of the Koolaid:
Read on.....
TSA has in place procedures to assist people with medical conditions. Security officers are trained to perform the pat downs in a respectful manner, using very specific techniques. When an officer deviates from these techniques, they are provided additional training