[Gone] AZ: 320 discount on Alitalia operated flights (.JP)
Oct 26, 2012, 8:28 am
#1442
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 13
On the fb page of AZ someone wrote:
"Answer from European Commission:
Thank you for your message concerning the difficulties you faced concerning the reservation of flights with the company Alitalia.
Nothing within either air services (Regulation 1008/2008)* or passenger rights (Regulation 261/2004)* would support the policy that Alitalia has adopted in unilaterally cancelling bookings due to a marketing mistake; this is a situation directly covered by general consumer law.
In this regard, (Directive 2005/29/EC)*on Unfair Commercial Practices requires traders, such as Alitalia, to behave with professional diligence and to provide consumers with truthful and accurate information on the terms and conditions under which a product is made provided, its availability and price.
For example, making a commercial offer or a promotion without disclosing that the trader may not be able to supply a given product or with the intention of promoting a different product are specific practices which are banned in all circumstances under (Annex I n. 5) of Directive 2005/29/EC. However, national enforcers are competent body able to appraise the circumstances if the case concerned and apply such consumer legislation.
The Italian authorities, rather than the Commission, would therefore be better placed in deciding how to deal with this matter. We therefore suggest that passengers concerned contact the Autorità Garante della Concorrenza e del Mercato (AGCM) at the following address and complete the online complaint form:
http://www.agcm.it/
Alternatively, passengers can also contact AGCM by e-mail at:
[email protected]
However, in the first instance a passenger must file their complaint with Alitalia.
We hope you find this information useful.
*Follow this path to access EU law: EUR-Lex > Simple Search > Natural Number > select document type, year and number of the legislation > press "Search". The "bibliographic notice" provides information on the document, such as dates, procedure and consolidated versions.
With kind regards,
The "Passengers' Rights Team"/EUROPE DIRECT Contact Centre"
"Answer from European Commission:
Thank you for your message concerning the difficulties you faced concerning the reservation of flights with the company Alitalia.
Nothing within either air services (Regulation 1008/2008)* or passenger rights (Regulation 261/2004)* would support the policy that Alitalia has adopted in unilaterally cancelling bookings due to a marketing mistake; this is a situation directly covered by general consumer law.
In this regard, (Directive 2005/29/EC)*on Unfair Commercial Practices requires traders, such as Alitalia, to behave with professional diligence and to provide consumers with truthful and accurate information on the terms and conditions under which a product is made provided, its availability and price.
For example, making a commercial offer or a promotion without disclosing that the trader may not be able to supply a given product or with the intention of promoting a different product are specific practices which are banned in all circumstances under (Annex I n. 5) of Directive 2005/29/EC. However, national enforcers are competent body able to appraise the circumstances if the case concerned and apply such consumer legislation.
The Italian authorities, rather than the Commission, would therefore be better placed in deciding how to deal with this matter. We therefore suggest that passengers concerned contact the Autorità Garante della Concorrenza e del Mercato (AGCM) at the following address and complete the online complaint form:
http://www.agcm.it/
Alternatively, passengers can also contact AGCM by e-mail at:
[email protected]
However, in the first instance a passenger must file their complaint with Alitalia.
We hope you find this information useful.
*Follow this path to access EU law: EUR-Lex > Simple Search > Natural Number > select document type, year and number of the legislation > press "Search". The "bibliographic notice" provides information on the document, such as dates, procedure and consolidated versions.
With kind regards,
The "Passengers' Rights Team"/EUROPE DIRECT Contact Centre"
Oct 26, 2012, 9:37 am
#1443
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: NAP
Programs: LH, BA, TK
Posts: 2,409
Oct 26, 2012, 9:42 am
#1444
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Amsterdam
Programs: SkyTeam Gold, Hilton Gold, Club Carlson Gold
Posts: 1,421
On the fb page of AZ someone wrote:
"Answer from European Commission:
Thank you for your message concerning the difficulties you faced concerning the reservation of flights with the company Alitalia.
Nothing within either air services (Regulation 1008/2008)* or passenger rights (Regulation 261/2004)* would support the policy that Alitalia has adopted in unilaterally cancelling bookings due to a marketing mistake; this is a situation directly covered by general consumer law.
In this regard, (Directive 2005/29/EC)*on Unfair Commercial Practices requires traders, such as Alitalia, to behave with professional diligence and to provide consumers with truthful and accurate information on the terms and conditions under which a product is made provided, its availability and price.
For example, making a commercial offer or a promotion without disclosing that the trader may not be able to supply a given product or with the intention of promoting a different product are specific practices which are banned in all circumstances under (Annex I n. 5) of Directive 2005/29/EC. However, national enforcers are competent body able to appraise the circumstances if the case concerned and apply such consumer legislation.
The Italian authorities, rather than the Commission, would therefore be better placed in deciding how to deal with this matter. We therefore suggest that passengers concerned contact the Autorità Garante della Concorrenza e del Mercato (AGCM) at the following address and complete the online complaint form:
http://www.agcm.it/
Alternatively, passengers can also contact AGCM by e-mail at:
[email protected]
However, in the first instance a passenger must file their complaint with Alitalia.
We hope you find this information useful.
*Follow this path to access EU law: EUR-Lex > Simple Search > Natural Number > select document type, year and number of the legislation > press "Search". The "bibliographic notice" provides information on the document, such as dates, procedure and consolidated versions.
With kind regards,
The "Passengers' Rights Team"/EUROPE DIRECT Contact Centre"
"Answer from European Commission:
Thank you for your message concerning the difficulties you faced concerning the reservation of flights with the company Alitalia.
Nothing within either air services (Regulation 1008/2008)* or passenger rights (Regulation 261/2004)* would support the policy that Alitalia has adopted in unilaterally cancelling bookings due to a marketing mistake; this is a situation directly covered by general consumer law.
In this regard, (Directive 2005/29/EC)*on Unfair Commercial Practices requires traders, such as Alitalia, to behave with professional diligence and to provide consumers with truthful and accurate information on the terms and conditions under which a product is made provided, its availability and price.
For example, making a commercial offer or a promotion without disclosing that the trader may not be able to supply a given product or with the intention of promoting a different product are specific practices which are banned in all circumstances under (Annex I n. 5) of Directive 2005/29/EC. However, national enforcers are competent body able to appraise the circumstances if the case concerned and apply such consumer legislation.
The Italian authorities, rather than the Commission, would therefore be better placed in deciding how to deal with this matter. We therefore suggest that passengers concerned contact the Autorità Garante della Concorrenza e del Mercato (AGCM) at the following address and complete the online complaint form:
http://www.agcm.it/
Alternatively, passengers can also contact AGCM by e-mail at:
[email protected]
However, in the first instance a passenger must file their complaint with Alitalia.
We hope you find this information useful.
*Follow this path to access EU law: EUR-Lex > Simple Search > Natural Number > select document type, year and number of the legislation > press "Search". The "bibliographic notice" provides information on the document, such as dates, procedure and consolidated versions.
With kind regards,
The "Passengers' Rights Team"/EUROPE DIRECT Contact Centre"
Sounds good to me!
Oct 26, 2012, 10:11 am
#1446
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: LHR
Programs: M&M,HH Gold,Accor Plat.,Priority Club Plat. Ambassador,Club Carlson Gold,Marriott Gold,GHA Plat.
Posts: 1,627
Dear Mr. *****:
Your correspondence to the U.S. Department of Transportation regarding a recent Alitalia Japan Web site promotional discount code has been forwarded to us for response. Under the redemption rules, this particular code was only valid on Tokyo and Osaka flights. Unfortunately, Alitalia’s online reservation system erroneously permitted the discount to be applied to all Alitalia flights booked through the Japan Web site. After carefully considering this matter, Alitalia has decided to honor all tickets purchased with the promotional code, provided the transaction entailed a charge of more than one (1) euro cent. If you made such a purchase but were notified that your transaction had been cancelled, you should have received, or will soon receive, a confirmation email reinstating your ticket at the original purchase price, using the credit card information provided during your initial booking.
We thank you for the opportunity to provide this response and look forward to welcoming you aboard a future Alitalia flight.
Sincerely,
Elizabeth Santella
Manager,
Customer Relations USA & Mexico
Alitalia, Compagnia Aerea Italiana SpA
51 Madison Ave. - Suite 2000
New York NY 10010
TEL 212 903 3494
FAX 646 462 3701
Your correspondence to the U.S. Department of Transportation regarding a recent Alitalia Japan Web site promotional discount code has been forwarded to us for response. Under the redemption rules, this particular code was only valid on Tokyo and Osaka flights. Unfortunately, Alitalia’s online reservation system erroneously permitted the discount to be applied to all Alitalia flights booked through the Japan Web site. After carefully considering this matter, Alitalia has decided to honor all tickets purchased with the promotional code, provided the transaction entailed a charge of more than one (1) euro cent. If you made such a purchase but were notified that your transaction had been cancelled, you should have received, or will soon receive, a confirmation email reinstating your ticket at the original purchase price, using the credit card information provided during your initial booking.
We thank you for the opportunity to provide this response and look forward to welcoming you aboard a future Alitalia flight.
Sincerely,
Elizabeth Santella
Manager,
Customer Relations USA & Mexico
Alitalia, Compagnia Aerea Italiana SpA
51 Madison Ave. - Suite 2000
New York NY 10010
TEL 212 903 3494
FAX 646 462 3701
Oct 26, 2012, 10:18 am
#1447
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: NAP
Programs: LH, BA, TK
Posts: 2,409
I believe many would love to sort out the issue with AZ, in the spirit of this thread.
The risk to see OJs fixed, was taken by booking 33.000 tickets in a night, not talking on FT about HOW to get back a signed contract with AZ.
Oct 26, 2012, 10:37 am
#1449
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: LHR
Programs: M&M,HH Gold,Accor Plat.,Priority Club Plat. Ambassador,Club Carlson Gold,Marriott Gold,GHA Plat.
Posts: 1,627
such different thing for 3x!
Oct 26, 2012, 10:41 am
#1450
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: NAP
Programs: LH, BA, TK
Posts: 2,409
Unfortunately some OJ was public long before this AZ mess.
As for the future, WWE posted a wise opinion.
Oct 26, 2012, 11:27 am
#1452
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Amsterdam
Programs: SkyTeam Gold, Hilton Gold, Club Carlson Gold
Posts: 1,421
Dear Mr. *****:
Your correspondence to the U.S. Department of Transportation regarding a recent Alitalia Japan Web site promotional discount code has been forwarded to us for response. Under the redemption rules, this particular code was only valid on Tokyo and Osaka flights. Unfortunately, Alitalia’s online reservation system erroneously permitted the discount to be applied to all Alitalia flights booked through the Japan Web site. After carefully considering this matter, Alitalia has decided to honor all tickets purchased with the promotional code, provided the transaction entailed a charge of more than one (1) euro cent. If you made such a purchase but were notified that your transaction had been cancelled, you should have received, or will soon receive, a confirmation email reinstating your ticket at the original purchase price, using the credit card information provided during your initial booking.
We thank you for the opportunity to provide this response and look forward to welcoming you aboard a future Alitalia flight.
Sincerely,
Elizabeth Santella
Manager,
Customer Relations USA & Mexico
Alitalia, Compagnia Aerea Italiana SpA
51 Madison Ave. - Suite 2000
New York NY 10010
TEL 212 903 3494
FAX 646 462 3701
Your correspondence to the U.S. Department of Transportation regarding a recent Alitalia Japan Web site promotional discount code has been forwarded to us for response. Under the redemption rules, this particular code was only valid on Tokyo and Osaka flights. Unfortunately, Alitalia’s online reservation system erroneously permitted the discount to be applied to all Alitalia flights booked through the Japan Web site. After carefully considering this matter, Alitalia has decided to honor all tickets purchased with the promotional code, provided the transaction entailed a charge of more than one (1) euro cent. If you made such a purchase but were notified that your transaction had been cancelled, you should have received, or will soon receive, a confirmation email reinstating your ticket at the original purchase price, using the credit card information provided during your initial booking.
We thank you for the opportunity to provide this response and look forward to welcoming you aboard a future Alitalia flight.
Sincerely,
Elizabeth Santella
Manager,
Customer Relations USA & Mexico
Alitalia, Compagnia Aerea Italiana SpA
51 Madison Ave. - Suite 2000
New York NY 10010
TEL 212 903 3494
FAX 646 462 3701
I guess they are back on the lying track
Oct 26, 2012, 11:51 am
#1453
Join Date: Mar 2012
Programs: LH SEN, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 25
It is a basic legal principle that laws generally do not regulate conduct outside the United States (the presumption against extraterritoriality).
The ticket was "sold" outside the U.S.
The ticket was advertised outside the U.S., thus any false and deceptive advertising occurred outside the U.S.
It's the same reason why the FTC isn't going to go after a Maltese electronics store just because I viewed its website from my house in Iowa.
You may disagree, and some people with legal knowledge may even disagree, but it is hardly absurd for a government agency to exercise its discretion to not spend its resources dealing with a mistake in another country.
The ticket was "sold" outside the U.S.
The ticket was advertised outside the U.S., thus any false and deceptive advertising occurred outside the U.S.
It's the same reason why the FTC isn't going to go after a Maltese electronics store just because I viewed its website from my house in Iowa.
You may disagree, and some people with legal knowledge may even disagree, but it is hardly absurd for a government agency to exercise its discretion to not spend its resources dealing with a mistake in another country.
If they didn't want to do that, they shouldn't have written §399.88, plain and simple. But to issue such rules and then refrain from enforcing them is legal nihilism and will be a very bad precedent, enabling other airlines to lie even more than Alitalia does now.
Oct 26, 2012, 12:22 pm
#1454
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Washington, DC
Programs: DL PM; IHG PlatAmb; Hilton Dia; Marriott Plat; Hyatt Discoverist
Posts: 7,371
The fact is DOT has already committed to doing just that – deal with prices in any country, as long as it concerns "scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States" (§399.88).
If they didn't want to do that, they shouldn't have written §399.88, plain and simple. But to issue such rules and then refrain from enforcing them is legal nihilism and will be a very bad precedent, enabling other airlines to lie even more than Alitalia does now.
If they didn't want to do that, they shouldn't have written §399.88, plain and simple. But to issue such rules and then refrain from enforcing them is legal nihilism and will be a very bad precedent, enabling other airlines to lie even more than Alitalia does now.
Oct 26, 2012, 1:18 pm
#1455
Suspended
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 22,778
Difference between zero euro and one eurocent flights.
First of congratulations to people whose tickets have been reinstated.
From the response given by DoT, it's clear that the issue is not as simple as some people think it is--that DoT must regulate all transactions that involve a flight to/from a U.S. airport. I had raised some issues, such as that target market was japan, and that the transaction might not be deemed to have occurred under DoT jurisdiction. I don't know if DoT if right or not, but their decision does agree with my thinking.
In other words, you can't enter into a transaction anywhere ion the world and invoke DoT on your behalf. There are limits on where DoT can intercede. Even if you are correct and Alitalia is wrong, DoT is not bound to intercede on your behalf in any dispute between you and another agency outside the U.S. That the transaction was one though a Japanese wedsite and not through Alitalia's U.S. cite is of essence in DoT's view.
Alitalia chose to reinstate those tickets for which some payment was made, bit not those that were completely free. At first I felt that AlItalia was wrong and had opened itself to being forced to honour all tickets if it was going to honour some. After all, what's the difference between the two? Both types of tickets involved 25000 Yen credit and every one paid any amount in excess of the coupon amount.
I thought some more and came to this conclusion. There IS some difference between two types of fares. I suppose Alitalia could say that no consideration was put forth by people whose tickets cost zero Euros. It was the coupon amount that lowered the fare to zero or below, not any amount paid by holders of those tickets. The 25000, Yen and the ticket, were the two things that Alitalia would provide, which it did, but the passengers did not pay any thing--i.e. no consideration provided by the passengers with zero fare tickets.
From the response given by DoT, it's clear that the issue is not as simple as some people think it is--that DoT must regulate all transactions that involve a flight to/from a U.S. airport. I had raised some issues, such as that target market was japan, and that the transaction might not be deemed to have occurred under DoT jurisdiction. I don't know if DoT if right or not, but their decision does agree with my thinking.
In other words, you can't enter into a transaction anywhere ion the world and invoke DoT on your behalf. There are limits on where DoT can intercede. Even if you are correct and Alitalia is wrong, DoT is not bound to intercede on your behalf in any dispute between you and another agency outside the U.S. That the transaction was one though a Japanese wedsite and not through Alitalia's U.S. cite is of essence in DoT's view.
Alitalia chose to reinstate those tickets for which some payment was made, bit not those that were completely free. At first I felt that AlItalia was wrong and had opened itself to being forced to honour all tickets if it was going to honour some. After all, what's the difference between the two? Both types of tickets involved 25000 Yen credit and every one paid any amount in excess of the coupon amount.
I thought some more and came to this conclusion. There IS some difference between two types of fares. I suppose Alitalia could say that no consideration was put forth by people whose tickets cost zero Euros. It was the coupon amount that lowered the fare to zero or below, not any amount paid by holders of those tickets. The 25000, Yen and the ticket, were the two things that Alitalia would provide, which it did, but the passengers did not pay any thing--i.e. no consideration provided by the passengers with zero fare tickets.