LapLap

Nope, in London those with the high end strollers bundle them into their massive 4x4 urban tanks - another way to show selfishness and self entitlement. Those who use the bus have disposable kinds that periodically buckle under the kid and overstuffed shopping bags. Having been a wheelchair user in London who has had to endure literally hours of waiting (and boy, do you get cold in a wheelchair even on a warm day as you don't move) because bus after bus could not accommodate me - spaces filled with unfolded buggies, I can attest to the self entitlement. Have made absolutely sure never to encroach on a wheelchair user in any way.

As to the topic, what I hate about travelling in Tokyo are the self servers who ignore those around them when using the guard gates at the entrance to stations and at the elevators. They may be in the minority but given the crowds and number of people involved even a tiny percentage means that they have a strong presence. Being pushed in front of time and time again as a wheelchair user got wearisome, as someone who has visited more recently with a small but wide wheeled buggy I've got to witness this inconsideration again. It actually seems to have got worse in the last few years. Never saw a buggy user who didn't offer a place on an elevator to a wheelchair user first, saw plenty of jerks with no clear need for an elevator charge on and hit the floor button rather than the <|> open door button whilst others boarded. I suspect they wilfully fail to notice those who have needs greater than they own and are to all intents actually blind to them. May get worse once spectacle computers become more common place.
I guess, with the majority of people being courteous and delightful those who aren't feel they have an open field to exercise in.

mjm

Not not by a long shot. And Boston's problem is the same I see in the Bay Area, train lines run into and out of ton but are absolutely useless for in town use. No loop line at all and radii lines that have no loop configuration like say the Marunouchi line.


They can take the stroller on the train. Good manners dictate not taking up a of of extra space. I know that this not the "me first" attitude prevalent i the US but it works well here. Many people do take the stroller on board and we all accept it. I have never seen the negative attention mentioned. Perhaps a personal perspective only? I see just the opposite in fact from a great many non-peak riders.

No absolutely not selfish. In fact the way that station staff cater to those with extreme mobility issues is quite impressive and heart-warming. They help them down the stairs on motorized devices, they help them on to the train and the staff at the alighting station are made aware of the reverse assistance required. Try finding that level of caring in Boston As to your luggage question, I think everyone has bee through that and the eye rolling you may see is more of "you poor guy I feel for you but could you" than anything else.

I am not sure what you are referencing here but I agree progress is good. The issue you are raising of wheelchair-bound people is a little off topic though, or perhaps I should say a much bigger but separate one. Tokyo as a city is embarrassingly inaccessible to wheelchair-bound people. Not only the stations but streets and a variety of other places. that is something I hope the government does a lot about in the run-up to the Olympics.

Have a kid and you deal with the hassles of lugging things around, sleeplessness, and limited finances for a while. This is a fact of life. I do and did it put of love and dedication to my own kids. Now I try and assist others (carrying strollers up or down a flight of stairs, etc. when the situation presents itself. Someone feeling limited from taking the train or having too much stuff to carry Around is a product of their own issues. Nobody says how much you must carry other than the 8-20 pounds that is the infant. Nobody says a train is not to be ridden. That sounds like personal issues more than actual issues with the city or Tokyo and its transportation. I find young mothers (and today that extends to both parents) to be some of the most creative, strong and resilient folks I have ever met. In any country.


I could not disagree more. Moreover the signs in every car that indicate the silver seats are for those who are pregnant, elderly or limited in mobility are an accepted norm. I see their adherence daily. It is simply incorrect to suggest otherwise. One may wish to cite their own individual experience but that does not the norm make.

It is apparent I think in these comment s that life in a busy city such as Tokyo with cultural norms for certain behavior may not suit everyone Not a bad thing at all, just the way we each see the world. I am thoroughly convinced each time I visit the States these days that I love visiting but could not live there for the incredible selfishness I see. Imagine. It is cultural and I understand why it is that way. I just choose to live where I know society works well, or well enough.

It is my contention that people in Tokyo are some of the kindest and most attuned to sharing space people in the world. No where else is the combination of size and modernity. It is unique here and I think it works pretty darn well.

evergrn

So you're now saying strollers are generally okay on the train, or maybe you're saying strollers are okay as long as it's not rush-hour. My point all along has been that parents with strollers should be welcomed on trains, but that they should also exercise courtesy towards others and discretion such as avoiding rush-hours. But it seems like we're on the same page. As for the negative attention, you say you don't see it and that "we all accept" strollers on trains, but my experience has definitely been different. Is it possible that I'm exaggerating things in my head? It's always possible. But other people have said the same things... my sister-in-law, her friends, msiamsia. If I've spent a week in Tokyo with a stroller, we'd probably experience it once or twice. It's usually something along the lines of a person saying to me "I can't get by with this thing in my way" with a definite tone of attitude when she could've said to me "Sumimasen, I'm getting off here." Sometimes it's more subtle like stares. These are not during rush hours. We've always avoided rush-hour trains with strollers, but many lines (eg, Tokaido, Ginza) are always going to be pretty-well occupied at all hours. Anyways, I no longer do strollers, thank God.

I think even the Silver Seat compliance in Tokyo is somewhat questionable. But fine, if you're talking about Silver Seats, I do see folks being more conscientious about doing the right things. But how often do you see people give up a seat that's a regular seat? Okay, when there's someone who's using a cane and hunched over, then chances are someone would offer up a seat even in Tokyo. But in Boston and HKG, that courtesy would usually be extended to a whole bunch of other people... small kids, pregnant, people that are quite old but still perfectly ambulatory. I'm not saying these things don't happen at all in Tokyo, but it tends to happen far less than elsewhere. No one would offer my wife a seat on trains in Tokyo when she was pregnant. When we get on Yamanote in Nippori with 2 little kids and luggage, you can bet no one's getting up to offer a seat.

I agree that there's a lot of selfishness in America that you don't see in Tokyo. Jpn people are very considerate and very attuned to following rules (eg, lining up on platform and letting people get off the train first) and not imposing on others. You talk about the services provided by the train station staff in Jpn, and of course customer service in Jpn is second to none. On the whole, US falls short in all of the above departments, I get that. But there are things that people in Tokyo fall short on, as well. The manner in which people race to score seats on the train, people not giving up seats when they should, (as LapLap said) perfectly normal people lining up to use the tiny train station elevators so that people who really need it have to wait longer. Not saying Tokyo people are not kind. But they do lack a certain type of kindness, as compared to people in certain other parts of Japan or Americans for that matter.

Btw, Boston and SF are very different in terms of commute patterns and dependence on train. I can attest to that, having lived in both cities. Most of Boston area's population is in a lot more compact area (within Rt-128 corridor) and a lot more people commute via train into town (downtown, Cambridge, Longwood) rather than out. Bay Area's a lot more vast with no one single commute/work epicenters, and most people commute by car. Boston definitely has a train-commute culture, although of course not to the degree of Tokyo.

This is a good point.

mjm

I have never said otherwise. I indicated and still think that it is important to consider how much you take up and how you might minimize that impact on others. The key is thinking of how you impact others rather than how others impact you. That is the essential difference between manners here and the US. Having lived in both places for long periods of time I can attest to that. Mothers with kids, etc. do have limitations on how much they can minimize things but they should certainly try to do so in the same way a person carrying a large box or bag might need to do when returning from a shopping expedition.

I would be astounded if a Japanese person in public were to say "I can't get by with this thing in my way". That is just out of line with the manners here. Confrontation is always avoided if possible.

The whole reason they are always in the same location is so people in those circumstances cab avail themselves of these seats. Anyone needing such a seat and not boarding the train where they are takes 100% of the responsibility.

In Boston or HKG I do not know if they have the equivalent of Silver Seats, but if they do not it makes sense that one might expect to see regular seats given up instead.

If she did not avail herself of the Silver seats, then it is entirely on her I am afraid. If the Silver Seats were not relinquished by those more able to stand than she, that would be shameful for the person who did not give her a seat I agree.

You see, the bottom line really is manners and norms are there very dependent on the location. Here the expectation is that of you are pregnant, physically challenged by injury, age etc. then you need to work with everyone else and board where there are seats for you. You can work within those parameters or you can wish it were otherwise. I see it very much as a case of "When in Rome".

On the Bay Area and Boston commute patterns being different, yes and no. The Bay Area most certainly does have clearly defined CBDs as with Boston. The two cities share the characteristic of having train networks that allow movement in and out but are very poor at movement within. That said, if I had to nominate one system as being far worse than the other, BART is the hands down favorite for that title.

BritinJapan

I think its rather arrogant for you to decide that a people must change their attitude. Also I think you have been unlucky ( certainly in my experience, and also may its a reflection of your own attitiude

evergrn

You started a thread asking people what they find annoying about Jpn. So I simply chimed in and, of course, a topic like this is going to tend towards negative discussions about Jpn. And then you're going to flame me?

Jpn's my native country and, for every negative thing I can think of about Jpn, I can think of several positive things to talk about.

mkjr

I recently spent 2 weeks in Japan with a disabled child that due to muscle tone issues related to her disability, still uses a stroller despite being 7. All in and around the Osaka and Tokyo areas.

It is with disappointment that I would have to agree about the comments about strollers and negative attitude paid to the same – or rather indifference to needs of those with children in strollers. In fact, this is our third trip with our child and I would say that this is the worst I have seen it since our first trip with this child, also in a stroller at that time, 2010 (last time was May 2012). We certainly experienced the same.

During our trip, despite being with a child, typically in one arm with my holding her collapsed stroller in the other, only on one occasion did someone get out of the seats allocated to persons with needs to give up the same. The indifference displayed was something I was disappointed in. I would have agreed with most of the comments that typically people are more courteous than this. We also saw people intentionally cut in front of you to exit or enter through the wider ticket gates, push around you in the guard gates and push into you in elevators to cram them full....an offensive example was at about 9:30am when getting into an elevator at hamamatsucho with luggage and our stroller to get to HND....not one but 3 or four people crammed in like a JR special rapid train between Kyoto and Osaka without regard to us or our child.

Now perhaps it was because my wife looks Japanese, but is not, and so does my daughter, but is not, that people displayed this rather unhelpful attitude. I am big white gaijin and perhaps if we were all visible gaijin’s we would have more courtesy displayed towards us. Perhaps we got our first taste of how locals treat each other. I have always heard that the Japanese can be pretty cut through to each other and its often not something that visitors will ever experience.

What I found ironic was that when I was seated with her with stroller folded in busy times, I would relinquish my own seat to pretty much any person, much like I would do here in Toronto, who looked like they could sit down and then have my child on her own. The fact that I was greeted with complete shock by the person who gladly sat down in a crammed train was also equally astonishing.

I would like to point out mjm, that although I agree with you in some respects that people might be upset that someone would get more space, the fact is, our child needs more space. Therefore, you have one flawed assumption in that you assume that each person ought to only be entitled to the same amount of space as any other. And therein lies a flawed assumption. Some people need more space. Children in strollers, mothers with children and persons in wheelchairs etc. They should be accommodated. And accommodation does not mean they get the same amount of space.

Either way, I was let down.

Although Canada is pretty intolerant to persons with special needs, I would see that I think Japan has a long way to go to get even our low points.

I hate to say it also, although only on this point, since on the subways in Toronto, people are horribly discourteous to each other in many respects that you would NEVER see in Japan, giving up seats to persons with needs is a no brainer and done all the time. Same in NYC where we have also travelled extensively with our child.

ADDED:

This is not station staff. Station staff are always very helpful etc.

Steve M

I was recently sitting in one of those seats (other seats were taken, and nobody with special needs needed them), when an elderly woman came to the section to sit down. There was plenty of room next to me but as soon as she saw a gaijin next to the empty seat, she chose to stand instead. It was obvious from her face what had happened. I stood up and offered her the room, which was now twice as much as she needed. She took it with thanks, and then realizing what she had done, apologized and encouraged me to sit back down in the seat next to her. I guess all gaijin aren't thoughtless monsters as she might have assumed.

mjm

An interesting and thought-provoking post. You sound very upbeat and kind.

Tokyo is a city, and to a large extent Japan is a country, where people with handicaps both mental and physical are hidden from society in far to many instances. My wife has worked at a handicapped kids school for 20+years and she constantly laments this shortcoming of society here. It is a shameful truth about Japan that people who need a little more understanding are not even allowed by their parents to venture out of a very limited life. There is currently a huge, and I mean massive, push on to incorporate these children into schools with kids born with all there chromosome pairs in order. It is as if Japan has finally realized that the ability to hold a glass of water or raise a head is not the definition of person. Still miles from where they should be but it is an issue of awareness at least now.

As for getting up to give a seat to someone that is not a silver seat, I agree from my own cultural perspective of chivalry and kindness it should be done, but here it is not the same culture and we cannot expect them to believe that any more than they can expect Catholics to stop believing some guy turned water into wine. When in Rome, respect the Roman culture.

I would have to say though that your assumption that because an individual's needs are greater than another's that society should make allowances for them at a subway ride level is completely off base. In terms of care, access, oh absolutely, but in terms of a person with greater needs having chosen the subway, no, not on a bet.

People who need more space are not entitled to it because they need it. People who need more space need to work within the parameters laid out. It sucks that there is not a system in place to accommodate each and every person's individual needs, but the system functions for the vast majority of people as it is. It is a system designed for the many not the few. If a person with a child needs more space, take a bus or a taxi or ride the train when there is likely more room. This is not what you may wish to hear but they are the options. It is what it is and no amount of wishing the world would spin just for a given person will make it do so.

But I am not right and neither are you. What you call common sense of polite in your culture, I might call selfish and imposing in another. Your statement of " They should be accommodated." is the flawed point of view. Not because of what it says, but because it seeks to impose a set of values held by one person on another.

You see the fact is, if we want to discuss actual facts, that I can come up with anecdote after anecdote to show the kindness of strangers where you might point out the opposite. Neither one of us would be proving a thing by doing so however. Your experience is yours, mine is mine, but one thing we can both agree on is that Canada and Japan are very different places, YYZ and TYO are vastly different in composition, religious morality background, culture, etc., etc., etc. My message is accept the differences and do not try and impose your own values on another place. It may be that they find you equally out of line you know

Pickles

This drives me nuts, but Japanese have a much narrower radius of personal space, and they'll cram an elevator, train, or public square with far more people than is comfortable.

mkjr

well have to agree to disagree on the right to special treatment and that's fine with me...

but that is a debate that we have in Canada all the time and is litigated here much like it is litigated in other countries all the time. here we have the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the Human Rights Codes that constitutionally and legislatively recognizes equal treatment (not just of the disabled, but women and many others) and that does not mean equal treatment....but goes well beyond that. Canada has a dirty human rights record also but I think we are generally going in the right direction...albeit at times regress as others do.

that said, when it comes to equality, in many respects, I don't agree when in Rome. I don't agree with the way women are treated in oppressed countries around the world. I certainly am not going to keep my mouth shut about it.

that said, your entitled to your views. I am sure your wife knows things first hand and far better than I ever will specifically as to the disabled in Japan...or the "obstacles" as I believe the world literally translates to.

either way, I am glad I don't live in Japan where children like my child would be very poor off I would think given the current society views....and they are not that well off here. I would feel even more concerned about what to do when I am dead if I lived in Japan....and this is only based on some very limited travel there and conversations with a local with a disabled child.

either way, Japan has, by its own recent legislative enactments, recognized its failures to accommodate those with disabilities. I recall it was only recently they even legislated the idea of "reasonable accommodation"....

I am certainly not getting on my high horse about Canada since we are by no means any sort of model out there.

that thing that i wonder about also, is whether we were subject to stigma by being the parents of a disabled child? I'm not sure.

I think if I lived there we would be stigmatized....even as a bengoshi...although I would only be able to be a gaikokuhō jimu bengoshi...I would probably be stigmatized anyway.

but if I get looked at upon as a rude and imposing gaijin for suggesting societies most vulnerable have a right to be accommodated and a right to differential treatment and reasonable accomodation up to undue hardship....so be it.

if it has taken japan this long to wrap its head around the disabled, how long will it take for them to accept immigration? I mean, that is unless they can figure out how to deal with their population decline...although ironically, that would mean more kids and probably more social activism to be accommodated in a system that does not...but that is another debate that japan will have to have and I will get to visit the country without needing to grapple with the same.

msiamsia

You are absolutely correct. My apology for the poor choice of wording. I've edited my original post, so people would be able to get a better picture why stroller-use could be a problematic in train.

Then, off to the topic, things I find it so challenging, especially in Tky.
Lack of Elevator/escalator at some major train stations (even till this day, there are stations without elevator/escalator due to a limited space). When I am carrying heavy/bulky luggage, I don't want to be carrying these up/down the stairs. But, either Elevator is concealed (can't find it!!) or located at faaaaaar end of the platform or super inconvenient location from where you exit the train, it just a pain to locate elevator/escalator.

mjm

I chuckled at the immigration thing. I agree entirely. The speed of change is dreadfully slow. That handicapped kids and adults are treated as someone to be tucked away is a disgrace. There are amazing parents here who disregard that tradition and assist their kids to live full and rich lives. I laud them but they are unfortunately too few still. Hopefully with time….

Immigration is going to change faster because it will be economically driven. Money unfortunately speaks louder than humanity it seems.

I think that there are far better places to live if facing a variety of challenges, but at the same time there is a curious sharing of space here too. Hard to describe but the whole “I would be embarrassed to infringe upon you” attitude that is evolved form the agricultural background of Japan is the basis for making Japan an easy place to stand out.

Equality and the right to certain things are a fun topic for comparison of cultures. Even a comparison of cultures at various points in their history, and then even further a comparison of the rate of change and the catalysts in each society.

Here in Japan, compared to Canada, the US, most of Europe etc., the country is severely backward on a number of what you and I might call “basic rights” issues.

Or are they? I suppose what is right for one person is not for the next because we are all entitled to believe as we wish so long as we follow the law.

Here in Japan to hold certain values on public space, public privacy, etc. is just as much the right of Japan as are the various aspects of a North American culture the right of those people. So while, I too am happy to share dialogue and periodically agree to disagree, I think that common sense also tells us that until you are paying taxes and voting in a given country you do not have much right to do more than behave according to and accept the constraints of a foreign society. This is one of the major gripes I have about America’s foreign policy. World policemen we do not need. And that extends to people from one country seeking to force their values on another. So in truth, to politely observe as the Romans do as they will in Rome, is to be the best fellow occupier of the planet you can be.

As for being stigmatized, I think it may be more accurate to say you would be obviously observed. Stigmatized is a too strong I think. Here in Japan the locals find great comfort in sameness. That which is perceived to not be the same is observed obviously and then quite likely subjected to some form of comment or judgment by individuals.

Being foreign you are automatically at a huge disadvantage in terms of slipping by unnoticed. Some deal with that better than others. I started out 24 years ago ready to swing at anybody that treated me derisively, today I feel empowered by my ability to smile and walk in without feeling any anger at all. It has been a journey to get there though.

mjm

This one I may be able to help with actually. At each end of the platform in the station where you board the train is a map showing each station and where on the train you should board to alight directly in front of either an escalator to your exit or the station elevator. You position yourself on your departing platform so as to board at the point from which you should disembark at your destination. The cars are numbered and those are reflected on signs on the platform. All quite Japanese actually. :-)

BritinJapan

No I did not flame you, I just felt it was arrogant to say people must change, the point of the thread was to find out what people found difficult coming to Japan and hopefully people have more knowledge could help out with advice. No problem saying what difficult but I think saying things must change is arrogant, even if its your own country. There are thousands of positive things to say about Japan, but saying peoples attitudes must change is not constructive and wont help anyone, plus, wont happen !