Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Travel&Dining > Travel Safety/Security > Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate
Reload this Page >

DL passenger denied boarding due to t-shirt design

Community
Wiki Posts
Search

DL passenger denied boarding due to t-shirt design

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Aug 21, 2012, 10:13 pm
  #91  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: SYD (perenially), GVA (not in a long time)
Programs: QF PS, EK-Gold, Security Theatre Critic
Posts: 6,790
Originally Posted by Carl Johnson
I don't actually think that's the issue (as far as all the attacks on him for "seeking attention" are concerned). The claims that he is seeking attention are just ways to delegitimize him. The criticism is a way for the speaker to attribute illegitimate motivations for acts he doesn't like or disagrees with. The "seeking attention" isn't the key; it's the attempt of the speaker to act as an arbiter of what motivations are and aren't legitimate.

A is just doing B in order to C

It doesn't matter what "C" is, you can put anything in there you want. The point is that the statement is usually irrelevant. It usually doesn't matter why somebody does something; what matters is what they do and the effect it has.

He wore a shirt. The shirt had no capacity to harm the aircraft. Why he wore it is therefore irrelevant.
I agree with you - bottom line, the shirt had no capacity to harm the aircraft.

So even if he wore it to attract attention (as others have claimed, and as I've agreed with them), it doesn't matter because the shirt itself is not a threat.

Last edited by RadioGirl; Aug 21, 2012 at 10:29 pm Reason: typing too fast...
RadioGirl is online now  
Old Aug 21, 2012, 10:23 pm
  #92  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Twin Cities
Programs: Delta DM MM, IHG Plat, Hilton DM, Marriott SE, Emerald EE, Oakdale Gun Club, NRA & GOA Life Member
Posts: 3,870
Originally Posted by zombietooth
But they did let him fly the next day. He was just put through the wringer because of his beliefs, expressed via a clever t-shirt.

Should have read the article.
The t-shirt wasn't the least bit clever. At first glace, it conveys the opposite of what he was trying to express. I'll point out I agree with his sentiment 100%. I'd even go so far as get rid of the TSA and allow me and other law abiding citizens to carry concealed onboard the aircraft.
yohanson is offline  
Old Aug 21, 2012, 10:32 pm
  #93  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 1,007
Originally Posted by yohanson
The t-shirt wasn't the least bit clever. At first glace, it conveys the opposite of what he was trying to express. I'll point out I agree with his sentiment 100%. I'd even go so far as get rid of the TSA and allow me and other law abiding citizens to carry concealed onboard the aircraft.
So maybe the TSA can put out a list of "approved" t-shirts so we don't have to deal with this absurd waste of our, and the police jurisdiction's, tax money.
Pesky Monkey is offline  
Old Aug 21, 2012, 10:54 pm
  #94  
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Programs: DL DM PM
Posts: 2,034
We all have quite a laugh at TSA's expense, the shoes, the bottles etc... it's a pain. Personally I curse Richard Reid every time I put my shoes on the belt.

You know who I've never heard laugh at the TSA measures? FAs. More than once FAs have talked about how the searches make them feel safe doing their job, and are grateful for this sense of security. Now whether this is justified or not is another question, but for all FAs who are spared the sight of looking at a customer with stupid crap about terrorists blowing up planes on his shirt while they are doing their job, I laud the captain's decision.
NotHamSarnie is offline  
Old Aug 21, 2012, 11:17 pm
  #95  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 1,007
Originally Posted by NotHamSarnie
We all have quite a laugh at TSA's expense, the shoes, the bottles etc... it's a pain. Personally I curse Richard Reid every time I put my shoes on the belt.

You know who I've never heard laugh at the TSA measures? FAs. More than once FAs have talked about how the searches make them feel safe doing their job, and are grateful for this sense of security. Now whether this is justified or not is another question, but for all FAs who are spared the sight of looking at a customer with stupid crap about terrorists blowing up planes on his shirt while they are doing their job, I laud the captain's decision.
Richard Reid didn't make us take our shoes off, the TSA did. Where did you see anything on the shirt about blowing up a plane?
Pesky Monkey is offline  
Old Aug 21, 2012, 11:23 pm
  #96  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: SEA
Programs: UA Silver, BA Gold, DL Gold
Posts: 9,779
Originally Posted by Wally Bird


Edwards v. People of State of California, 314 US (1941)
A citizen's right to interstate travel has long been recognized as a fundamental right, grounded upon the Privileges and Immunities Clause of Article IV, Section 2, of the United States Constitution.

Kent v. Dulles 357 US (1958)
The right to travel is a part of the 'liberty' of which the citizen cannot be deprived without the due process of law under the Fifth Amendment.

Aphtheker v. Sec. Of State 378 US (1964)
Freedom of travel is a constitutional liberty closely related to the rights of free speech and association The constitutional right to travel has been firmly established and repeatedly recognized. Freedom to travel throughout the United States has long been recognized as a basic right under the constitution.

US v. Guest 383 US (1966)
The constitutional right to travel from one State to another, and necessarily use the highways or other instruments of interstate commerce in doing so, occupies a position fundamental to the concept of our Federal Union. It is a right that has been firmly established and repeatedly recognized. Freedom to travel throughout
the United States has long been recognized as a basic right under the Constitution.

Shapiro v. Thompson 394 US (1969)
This Court long ago recognized that the nature of our Federal Union and our constitutional concepts of personal liberty unite to require that all citizens be free to travel throughout the length and breadth of our land uninhibited by statutes, rules or regulations which unreasonably burden or retrict this movement. It is a right broadly assertable against private interference as well as governmental action. It is a virtually unconditional personal right, guaranteed by the Constitution to us all.

Griffin v. Breckenridge 403 US (1971)
Our cases have firmly established that the right of interstate travel is
constitutionally protected, does not necessarily rest on the Fourteenth
Amendment, and is assertable against private as well as governmental
interference.

Dunn v. Blumstein 405 US (1972)
Freedom to travel throughout the United States has long been recognized as a basic right under the Constitution. (Affirming Guest, above)

US v. Davis 482 F.2D (1973)
It is firmly established that freedom to travel at home and abroad without unreasonable governmental restriction is a fundamental constitutional right of every citizen.

Memorial Hospital v. Maricopa County 415 US (1974)
The right of interstate travel has repeatedly been recognized as a basic
constitutional freedom.

Califano v. Torres 435 US (1978)
The constitutional right of interstate travel is virtually unqualified.
I thank you for your considered response. I think we can all agree that none of those decisions offer the complainant much protection in this instance, but certainly there are some requirements that commercial carriers should be aware of. They might consider themselves lucky that none of those concerns mattered in this instance.
pbarnette is offline  
Old Aug 22, 2012, 12:04 am
  #97  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Programs: UA 1K, Hilton ♦ , Hyatt Carbonado, Wyndham ♦, Marriott PE, "Stinking Bum" elsewhere.
Posts: 4,998
Originally Posted by yohanson
The t-shirt wasn't the least bit clever. At first glace, it conveys the opposite of what he was trying to express. I'll point out I agree with his sentiment 100%. I'd even go so far as get rid of the TSA and allow me and other law abiding citizens to carry concealed onboard the aircraft.
It is clever, it copies the TSA official logo and badge and, on first glance the seal looks legit, and then you notice the tennis shoes and water bottle.

Maybe it's too subtle for you.

Is this one more to your liking?

http://www.cafepress.com/mf/46733194/tsa-liberty_tshirt

Or this one?

http://www.cafepress.com/mf/46771742...-this_tank-top
zombietooth is offline  
Old Aug 22, 2012, 12:09 am
  #98  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Twin Cities
Programs: Delta DM MM, IHG Plat, Hilton DM, Marriott SE, Emerald EE, Oakdale Gun Club, NRA & GOA Life Member
Posts: 3,870
Originally Posted by zombietooth
It is clever, it copies the TSA official logo and badge and, on first glance the seal looks legit, and then you notice the tennis shoes and water bottle.

Maybe it's too subtle for you.

Is this one more to your liking?

http://www.cafepress.com/mf/46733194/tsa-liberty_tshirt
It's not too subtle. As others have pointed out, at first glance, all you see is "bomb" and "terrist" or however he spelled it. But, I do like the one you linked to!!!
yohanson is offline  
Old Aug 22, 2012, 12:57 am
  #99  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: SYD (perenially), GVA (not in a long time)
Programs: QF PS, EK-Gold, Security Theatre Critic
Posts: 6,790
Originally Posted by jphripjah
I didn't read the article. I looked at the shirt and that was enough for me. If airlines let people wear t shirts on planes that say "bombs" "terrists" "gonna kill us all" then why not let people through security and on planes who are just ranting "bombs, terrists, gonna kill us all." No way people wearing or saying these things should be allowed to fly.

Imagine the lawsuits if they let one of these knuckleheads fly and then he actually did blow up the plane.
Imagine the lawsuits if they let a knucklehead wearing a t-shirt saying "I *heart* America" fly and then he actually did blow up the plane.

Imagine the lawsuits if they let a knucklehead wearing a plain green t-shirt fly and then he actually did blow up the plane.

Imagine the lawsuits if they let a knucklehead wearing a white shirt, red tie and black suit fly and then he actually did blow up the plane.

Or do you think it's easier to blow up a plane with a t-shirt that says "bomb" and "terrist" than with another kind of shirt?



Here's an idea, what about if they check people for actual bombs and weapons, rather than stopping them based on what their t-shirt says? Oh, wait, TSA did that at the checkpoint, didn't find anything worth stopping him for, and let him through. It was only the Chicken Little Delta agent at the gate who got nervous. So TSA checked him, his wife, and his carry-on bags again, didn't find anything again and said he was okay to fly as far as they were concerned. So Delta got the cops over to threaten him and make racist comments. And after all that, he still wasn't in possession of anything he could use to blow up a plane. Just a shirt.
RadioGirl is online now  
Old Aug 22, 2012, 1:35 am
  #100  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
Originally Posted by OHDL1
Taken from Domestic Contract of Carriage, Rule 35 Refusal to Transport, paragraph F:

"....Delta may refuse to transport any passenger, or may remove any passenger from its aircraft, when refusal to transport or removal of the passenger is reasonably necessary in Delta’s sole discretion for the passenger’s comfort or safety, for the comfort or safety of other passengers or Delta employees, or for the prevention of damage to the property of Delta or its passengers or employees.
Intimately familiar with that and the entire COC. Not everything an airline claims in a COC is necessarily enforceable; nor does it universally inoculate the airline from being found in violation of a ticketed passenger's contractual right to fly. No reasonable person should be surprised if DL were to pay up in some form or another for this ridiculous involuntary denied boarding situation.
GUWonder is offline  
Old Aug 22, 2012, 1:49 am
  #101  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
Originally Posted by jphripjah
I didn't read the article. I looked at the shirt and that was enough for me. If airlines let people wear t shirts on planes that say "bombs" "terrists" "gonna kill us all" then why not let people through security and on planes who are just ranting "bombs, terrists, gonna kill us all." No way people wearing or saying these things should be allowed to fly.
Flight attendants and pilots "rant" about "bombs, terrists, gonna kill us all." No way they should be allowed to fly either? That's a lot of members at the core of the "anything for security" crowd you want to ground for having an opinion that is far more harmful than this shirt.
GUWonder is offline  
Old Aug 22, 2012, 2:13 am
  #102  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Twin Cities
Programs: Delta DM MM, IHG Plat, Hilton DM, Marriott SE, Emerald EE, Oakdale Gun Club, NRA & GOA Life Member
Posts: 3,870
Originally Posted by GUWonder
Flight attendants and pilots "rant" about "bombs, terrists, gonna kill us all." No way they should be allowed to fly either? That's a lot of members at the core of the "anything for security" crowd you want to ground for having an opinion that is far more harmful than this shirt.
I would have still let him fly but he could have picked a better t-shirt design to make his point about "security theatre".
yohanson is offline  
Old Aug 22, 2012, 6:01 am
  #103  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: MSP
Programs: DL PM, MM, NR; HH Diamond, Bonvoy LT Gold, Hyatt Explorist, IHG Diamond, others
Posts: 12,159
Originally Posted by jphripjah
I didn't read the article. I looked at the shirt and that was enough for me. If airlines let people wear t shirts on planes that say "bombs" "terrists" "gonna kill us all" then why not let people through security and on planes who are just ranting "bombs, terrists, gonna kill us all." No way people wearing or saying these things should be allowed to fly.
You just said all those things, so I guess you shouldn't be allowed to fly.
sethb is offline  
Old Aug 22, 2012, 6:19 am
  #104  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
Originally Posted by yohanson
I would have still let him fly but he could have picked a better t-shirt design to make his point about "security theatre".
That is all in the eye of the beholder, and last week I may have agreed with you about the design failing to effectively make its message. But I have changed my opinion on that. Given what he experienced, the shirt design's message seems to have been validated by what prompted this situation at BUF a few days ago.

If anything, the reaction of the relevant DL personnel (involved in the situation at BUF at the time) verifies that terrorists have won over them. No terrorists defeated this Indian-American who has the courage of spirit not to join the rank and file of the "Anything For Security" mob.
GUWonder is offline  
Old Aug 22, 2012, 7:30 am
  #105  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,972
Originally Posted by OHDL1
Taken from Domestic Contract of Carriage, Rule 35 Refusal to Transport, paragraph F:

"....Delta may refuse to transport any passenger, or may remove any passenger from its aircraft, when refusal to transport or removal of the passenger is reasonably necessary in Delta’s sole discretion for the passenger’s comfort or safety, for the comfort or safety of other passengers or Delta employees, or for the prevention of damage to the property of Delta or its passengers or employees.
If "comfort" is to be interpreted in the way you claim, that clause is unenforcable due to its violating public policy. You can't exclude a black person, a person wearing religious items, or a gay person from a flight just because the presence of that person makes somebody on the flight "uncomfortable". Yes, DL is not a government actor and this was likely not a civil right's issue, but DL does have more responsibility than, say, a restaurant. If a restaurant refused to allow him in because of that shirt, there would be no issue.

However, because of the very fundamental right to travel (though, admittedly, not necessarily the right to travel by air) and that DL has been granted a license by the government to be one of a limited number of air carriers, they do have at least a moral (and probably legal) responsibility to not deny people for reasons that a government actor couldn't.
RichardKenner is offline  


Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.