Third runway at Hong Kong International Airport ‘going to be needed’ - Cathay Pacific
Jun 22, 2011, 3:47 pm
#31
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London
Programs: Asia Miles, Marco Polo, Virgin Flying Club, Etihad Guest & Silver BA Executive Club
Posts: 284
Cathay chief rules out role for airport rivals
All the info was taken from http://www.thestandard.com.hk
Greater cooperation with airports in the mainland and Macau will not end Hong Kong's air traffic congestion woes, Cathay Pacific chief executive John Slosar says.
...
However, opponents have criticized the plan as being too costly and damaging to the environment and local marine life.
The same opponents also suggest that extra traffic be rerouted to surrounding airports in order to ease pressure.
...
Greater cooperation with airports in the mainland and Macau will not end Hong Kong's air traffic congestion woes, Cathay Pacific chief executive John Slosar says.
...
However, opponents have criticized the plan as being too costly and damaging to the environment and local marine life.
The same opponents also suggest that extra traffic be rerouted to surrounding airports in order to ease pressure.
...
Last edited by cxfan1960; Jun 22, 2011 at 9:20 pm Reason: Removed main body of text - FT copyright guideline.
Jun 22, 2011, 6:16 pm
#32
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Portland, OR
Programs: Star Alliance, One World, Skyteam, BR, GA, EK, VX, SPG, Marriott, Hyatt, Hilton, IC
Posts: 4,065
HKG is HKG, I don't want to fly to any other airport when my connecting flight is in HKG.. Simple as that.
Jun 22, 2011, 8:21 pm
#33
Suspended
Join Date: May 2006
Location: HKG
Programs: A3, TK *G; JL JGC; SPG,Hilton Gold
Posts: 9,952
seriously speaking, when have anyone seen inter airport connection works. LHR/LGW, HND/NRT, KIX/ITM(These last 2 failed so badly that came at the growth of ICN, and now HND resumes its intl flights), AMS/CDG, and did MEL/SYD ever talked about cooperation? This is just utter nonsense for people who thinks airport can cooperate. Logistically speaking, shorts trips (besides and the 2 ends) are bad and why do you want to shove in a short trip when you can get a big trunk route elsewhere?
anyway, comparing a 3rd runway with the royally useless HSR, this is money well spend considering the coverage of a runway. The only real obstacle in between is the environmentalist vs runway discussion.
anyway, comparing a 3rd runway with the royally useless HSR, this is money well spend considering the coverage of a runway. The only real obstacle in between is the environmentalist vs runway discussion.
Jun 22, 2011, 11:52 pm
#34
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 6,978
All the info was taken from http://www.thestandard.com.hk
...
However, opponents have criticized the plan as being too costly and damaging to the environment and local marine life.
...
However, opponents have criticized the plan as being too costly and damaging to the environment and local marine life.
The same opponents also suggest that extra traffic be rerouted to surrounding airports in order to ease pressure.
...
Jun 23, 2011, 12:14 am
#35
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Portland, OR
Programs: Star Alliance, One World, Skyteam, BR, GA, EK, VX, SPG, Marriott, Hyatt, Hilton, IC
Posts: 4,065
Anything is too costly and damaging the environment to these people.
And stop any meaningful progress that Hong Kong have tried so hard to achieve in the last 10 years? Yes, just divert business and economic opportunities elsewhere. Don't these people ever learn? When the corporate world realizes you won't expand to accommodate growth, they take their operations elsewhere... their entire operations.
And stop any meaningful progress that Hong Kong have tried so hard to achieve in the last 10 years? Yes, just divert business and economic opportunities elsewhere. Don't these people ever learn? When the corporate world realizes you won't expand to accommodate growth, they take their operations elsewhere... their entire operations.
Jun 23, 2011, 1:10 am
#36
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,801
These same buttheads also suggested the budget deficit can be resolved by making the Exchange Fund "earn more" by increasing its risk profile and CLP can replace its Daya Bay plant with wind power.
Jun 23, 2011, 1:18 am
#37
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,801
And stop any meaningful progress that Hong Kong have tried so hard to achieve in the last 10 years? Yes, just divert business and economic opportunities elsewhere. Don't these people ever learn? When the corporate world realizes you won't expand to accommodate growth, they take their operations elsewhere... their entire operations.
Jun 23, 2011, 1:20 am
#38
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,801
Jun 23, 2011, 3:04 am
#39
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manila
Programs: CX DM, TG *G, HH DM
Posts: 210
More nuanced than that
Reality does not fit well with duality. This is not a question of CX vs environmentalists, or a case of development vs stagnation.
When the new airport was being mooted, pretty much every independent consultant advised against today's location. Parts of the caution was environment-based, but the main part was based on something much closer to home for most of us: Wind-shear. Nevertheless, the Government pushed forwards and the result we all know. One flight has so far been lost to wind-shear, where the blame was attempted shifted to the pilot by the looks of it.
Back in 1997, HK had a chance to reach out to Guangdong authorities and claim to be part of the family again. At the time, HK was in many ways revered in Guangdong. One collapse after, and China could see that HK was not that reverable after all and started moving forwards without too much consideration of HK. Hence an international airport in Shenzhen, Guangzhou and Zhuhai. Add Macau if you like. A great opportunity for cooperation and coordinated planning was lost.
I know I in an earlier post advocated increased cooperation. After checking with colleagues and friends, that will be nothing but a pipe-dream. China is steaming ahead, with not so much as a nod to HK. HK will need to run just to keep up. Yes, HK will need a third runway and it pains me that even more of what little nature remains in HK will be given up to keep up with China.
All the more reason for professionals to relocate to Singapore, where at least the air is cleaner and the environment in general more conducive to those of us who love greenery! I will hike the Twins this Saturday - that is at least a place that for now remains a sanctuary from the "keeping up with China" syndrome.
When the new airport was being mooted, pretty much every independent consultant advised against today's location. Parts of the caution was environment-based, but the main part was based on something much closer to home for most of us: Wind-shear. Nevertheless, the Government pushed forwards and the result we all know. One flight has so far been lost to wind-shear, where the blame was attempted shifted to the pilot by the looks of it.
Back in 1997, HK had a chance to reach out to Guangdong authorities and claim to be part of the family again. At the time, HK was in many ways revered in Guangdong. One collapse after, and China could see that HK was not that reverable after all and started moving forwards without too much consideration of HK. Hence an international airport in Shenzhen, Guangzhou and Zhuhai. Add Macau if you like. A great opportunity for cooperation and coordinated planning was lost.
I know I in an earlier post advocated increased cooperation. After checking with colleagues and friends, that will be nothing but a pipe-dream. China is steaming ahead, with not so much as a nod to HK. HK will need to run just to keep up. Yes, HK will need a third runway and it pains me that even more of what little nature remains in HK will be given up to keep up with China.
All the more reason for professionals to relocate to Singapore, where at least the air is cleaner and the environment in general more conducive to those of us who love greenery! I will hike the Twins this Saturday - that is at least a place that for now remains a sanctuary from the "keeping up with China" syndrome.
Jun 25, 2011, 9:44 am
#40
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: HKG
Programs: CX DM, SQ, BA, TG, Sheba, VN, MPO since 1980
Posts: 1,058
SCMP Tuesday April 26 2011
www.scmp.com
Who'll pay for the HK$50b runway to nowhere? (note the latest estimates are 136 billion by the time it gets underway)
with Jake van der Kamp
It's up, up and away when it ..............
What's with our Civil Aviation Department's sudden fascination with records when this one of 1,000 flights a day is due mostly to the fact that we run too many short hops out of Chek Lap Kok? These should long have gone elsewhere in the delta.
So now we have five contending airports in the delta, none of them making a proper return on investment if they are not losing buckets of money. We in Hong Kong alone spent HK$35 billion to build Chek Lap Kok, even more to build the transport connections to it.
......................
Our special benefit from this is to have commercial aircraft blaring out their ascent phase over the harbour every few minutes because the planners forgot to tell us until after all was built that this is where the major take-off path would be. Just forgot, you know. Oversight, you see.
But back to this ballyhoo about 1,000 flights a day. I think the reason we're getting it is that the airport is staring reality in the face. A new runway must soon be built. Government infrastructure spending is running out of concrete-pouring projects and this is a plum one. ...................
But are the users of the airport prepared to pay for it? Are they? Hah! You believe in the tooth fairy, too, I'll bet.
The game is to make the public purse cough up the money with the eventual benefits to go to that loud-mouthed lobby of airlines, hoteliers and tourist trap/shop operators, most of whom have only loose connections to this town. It will bring tourist dollars to Hong Kong, say these corporate beggars, knowing all the while that this money will just go out again as soon as they get their hands on it.
If we are to have a third runway let's see it paid for this time through passenger charges, auctions of landing slots and binding commitments from the airlines on passenger landings here.
www.scmp.com
Who'll pay for the HK$50b runway to nowhere? (note the latest estimates are 136 billion by the time it gets underway)
with Jake van der Kamp
It's up, up and away when it ..............
What's with our Civil Aviation Department's sudden fascination with records when this one of 1,000 flights a day is due mostly to the fact that we run too many short hops out of Chek Lap Kok? These should long have gone elsewhere in the delta.
So now we have five contending airports in the delta, none of them making a proper return on investment if they are not losing buckets of money. We in Hong Kong alone spent HK$35 billion to build Chek Lap Kok, even more to build the transport connections to it.
......................
Our special benefit from this is to have commercial aircraft blaring out their ascent phase over the harbour every few minutes because the planners forgot to tell us until after all was built that this is where the major take-off path would be. Just forgot, you know. Oversight, you see.
But back to this ballyhoo about 1,000 flights a day. I think the reason we're getting it is that the airport is staring reality in the face. A new runway must soon be built. Government infrastructure spending is running out of concrete-pouring projects and this is a plum one. ...................
But are the users of the airport prepared to pay for it? Are they? Hah! You believe in the tooth fairy, too, I'll bet.
The game is to make the public purse cough up the money with the eventual benefits to go to that loud-mouthed lobby of airlines, hoteliers and tourist trap/shop operators, most of whom have only loose connections to this town. It will bring tourist dollars to Hong Kong, say these corporate beggars, knowing all the while that this money will just go out again as soon as they get their hands on it.
If we are to have a third runway let's see it paid for this time through passenger charges, auctions of landing slots and binding commitments from the airlines on passenger landings here.
Last edited by Marco Polo; Jun 26, 2011 at 1:51 am
Jun 25, 2011, 10:17 am
#41
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: HKG
Programs: CX DM, SQ, BA, TG, Sheba, VN, MPO since 1980
Posts: 1,058
While I'd hardly consider myself in the 'green camp', to be fair, the courts ruled that the environmental impact analysis was inadequate so one can hardly fault the lady for bringing government incompetence into the limelight.
Had the government done the analysis adequately, the lady would have had no case. But the government messed up and now they have to bear the consequences.
Had the government done the analysis adequately, the lady would have had no case. But the government messed up and now they have to bear the consequences.
Jun 25, 2011, 10:42 am
#42
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 6,978
Cooperation always sounds good good on paper, but never practical in application. I have tried flying to Shenzhen and then make my way to Hong Kong, and it's clumsy to say the least. I've tried the Bus ride to Lo-Hu, 1 to 1.5 hours depending on traffic. Then Lo-Hu custom is a nightmare in itself, a good hour for "foreigner" to pass the China and Hong Kong side, and then you can look forward another 30-45 minutes train ride to your destination in Hong Kong. Plus waiting time (for luggage, bus, train, etc.) that's a good 4 extra hours, not exactly my idea of "convenience." Fu-Tien (Lo Mak Chou) custom port is not much better for "foreigners" as the desks open are usually 3-4 and service is ultra slow.
Also, it's about the Economy. Many people transit in Hong Kong will stay a day or two for sight-seeing, tourism, i.e. revenue for the city. If Hong Kong sends the message that you can go elsewhere, there is a big loss in potential economy.
Finally, cargo revenues. CX already lost to South Korea in total cargo so far this year, and it's likely to get worse if the corporate world sees the limitations of HKIA in the future.
HKIA is known for its efficiency, ease, and great services. People are attracted to that, and because of red tape and government culture in China I really doubt any Chinese airports will ever match what HKIA has to offer. Not investing in HKIA will be known as a grave mistake that Hong Kong government and citizens ever make.
Also, it's about the Economy. Many people transit in Hong Kong will stay a day or two for sight-seeing, tourism, i.e. revenue for the city. If Hong Kong sends the message that you can go elsewhere, there is a big loss in potential economy.
Finally, cargo revenues. CX already lost to South Korea in total cargo so far this year, and it's likely to get worse if the corporate world sees the limitations of HKIA in the future.
HKIA is known for its efficiency, ease, and great services. People are attracted to that, and because of red tape and government culture in China I really doubt any Chinese airports will ever match what HKIA has to offer. Not investing in HKIA will be known as a grave mistake that Hong Kong government and citizens ever make.
Jun 25, 2011, 11:04 am
#43
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: HKG
Programs: CX DM, SQ, BA, TG, Sheba, VN, MPO since 1980
Posts: 1,058
We can have four runways if we have adequate China airtraffic rights , but we don't and it will likely get worse. See the links below.
(My friend boarded a plane in Beijing last week and they sat on the apron for 3 hours waiting for a takeoff slot to fly back to HKG.)
Meanwhile:
http://www.globaltimes.cn/NEWS/tabid...ht-delays.aspx
China's airspace regulator moves to ease widespread flight delays Xinhua | June 14, 2011 14:51 By Agencies
China's Air Force, the country's airspace regulator, will introduce measures to ease flight delays of civil planes, an airspace regulation expert has said.
The Air Force will shift flights in rush hours to less busy hours, and extend the daily open time of the airspace, said an unnamed official in charge of a national lab on airspace technology on Monday.
The average delayed time of domestic flights was one hour in 2010 and air traffic control, a result of air traffic congestion, was among the major causes of flight delays, according to an official survey conducted last year.
The survey found that air traffic control was responsible for 26.1 percent of all flight delays, which was second to carrier operation and management, which accounted for 42.3 percent of delays.
Military activities led to 7 percent of flight delays, according to the survey.
As part of its efforts to tackle flights delays, the Air Force would make changes to military flights to improve the timely flow of civilian flights, the airspace regulation expert said.
The Air Force would also work with local authorities to shorten the interval time between flights.
The Air Force has announced it will open six military airports for civilian use over the next five years.
According to the expert, the available airspace in China is 9.99 million square kilometers, with 32 percent for civilian use and 23.51 for military use.
Read about the intended Mainland air industry growth
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ng-dragon.html
so does China see Hong Kong airport as a major competitor ?
If HKG cannot get the airspace clearances to enter Chinese airspace what use is a third runway ?
I was told that another problem exists - that the location of the intended 3rd runway protrudes into current Mainland airspace. Oops.
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/hkediti...t_12764351.htm
and HK cargo is mostly re-exports - what happen when the manufacturing zones shift northwards because of increased production costs ?
will they not use China airports instead ?
http://www.baf.cuhk.edu.hk/research/...ay%2029Nov.pdf November 2007
Conclusions
(5) Major obstacle in this process could be the vetting for the environmental impact of this project, particularly in the areas of greenhouse gas emissions
and ecological impact to the oceans around HKIA, including the impact to the Chinese White dolphins.
8) In view of the recently announced consideration of a linkage (by high speed rail) between the HKIA and Shenzhen’s Bao’an Airport, the potential impact
of such a linkage to the analysis presented in this report will need to be assessed. Not only will such a linkage impact on the passenger and cargo
demand for HKIA in the future and possibly flight mix for the airports, the environmental impact of such major projects (such as the proposed bridge-land interface point at HKIA for the Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macau Bridge) within the same vicinity can be accumulative in nature, which may significantly increase the difficulty in the environmental vetting of these projects. Along these lines, we are also well advised that it may be useful to explore a more inclusive and coordinated development of the aviation
infrastructures in the PRD for a more optimal development of this very important asset of South China’s future.
(My friend boarded a plane in Beijing last week and they sat on the apron for 3 hours waiting for a takeoff slot to fly back to HKG.)
Meanwhile:
http://www.globaltimes.cn/NEWS/tabid...ht-delays.aspx
China's airspace regulator moves to ease widespread flight delays Xinhua | June 14, 2011 14:51 By Agencies
China's Air Force, the country's airspace regulator, will introduce measures to ease flight delays of civil planes, an airspace regulation expert has said.
The Air Force will shift flights in rush hours to less busy hours, and extend the daily open time of the airspace, said an unnamed official in charge of a national lab on airspace technology on Monday.
The average delayed time of domestic flights was one hour in 2010 and air traffic control, a result of air traffic congestion, was among the major causes of flight delays, according to an official survey conducted last year.
The survey found that air traffic control was responsible for 26.1 percent of all flight delays, which was second to carrier operation and management, which accounted for 42.3 percent of delays.
Military activities led to 7 percent of flight delays, according to the survey.
As part of its efforts to tackle flights delays, the Air Force would make changes to military flights to improve the timely flow of civilian flights, the airspace regulation expert said.
The Air Force would also work with local authorities to shorten the interval time between flights.
The Air Force has announced it will open six military airports for civilian use over the next five years.
According to the expert, the available airspace in China is 9.99 million square kilometers, with 32 percent for civilian use and 23.51 for military use.
Read about the intended Mainland air industry growth
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ng-dragon.html
so does China see Hong Kong airport as a major competitor ?
If HKG cannot get the airspace clearances to enter Chinese airspace what use is a third runway ?
I was told that another problem exists - that the location of the intended 3rd runway protrudes into current Mainland airspace. Oops.
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/hkediti...t_12764351.htm
and HK cargo is mostly re-exports - what happen when the manufacturing zones shift northwards because of increased production costs ?
will they not use China airports instead ?
http://www.baf.cuhk.edu.hk/research/...ay%2029Nov.pdf November 2007
Conclusions
(5) Major obstacle in this process could be the vetting for the environmental impact of this project, particularly in the areas of greenhouse gas emissions
and ecological impact to the oceans around HKIA, including the impact to the Chinese White dolphins.
8) In view of the recently announced consideration of a linkage (by high speed rail) between the HKIA and Shenzhen’s Bao’an Airport, the potential impact
of such a linkage to the analysis presented in this report will need to be assessed. Not only will such a linkage impact on the passenger and cargo
demand for HKIA in the future and possibly flight mix for the airports, the environmental impact of such major projects (such as the proposed bridge-land interface point at HKIA for the Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macau Bridge) within the same vicinity can be accumulative in nature, which may significantly increase the difficulty in the environmental vetting of these projects. Along these lines, we are also well advised that it may be useful to explore a more inclusive and coordinated development of the aviation
infrastructures in the PRD for a more optimal development of this very important asset of South China’s future.
Jun 25, 2011, 11:24 am
#44
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hong Kong
Programs: BA Gold, JGC Sapphire, OZ Diamond, AF Silver, CX GR, Marriott Lifetime SL
Posts: 3,598
Wirelessly posted (iPhone 4: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)
When you talk about china it's more of it's inadequet airway control and their air traffic control is simply inadequate. Please tell me when china improves in that front do you have a runway to catch the opprountity?
When you talk about china it's more of it's inadequet airway control and their air traffic control is simply inadequate. Please tell me when china improves in that front do you have a runway to catch the opprountity?
Jun 25, 2011, 7:24 pm
#45
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,801
SCMP Tuesday April 26 2011 www.scmp.com
Let me tell you a story about our airport. Planning for it was somewhat delayed because a financial secretary of the early 1980s, John Bremridge, a Cathay Pacific man, said we didn't need a new one. By the time planning started again in the late 1980s there were other important things to talk about, most notably the handover of sovereignty in 1997. The airport became one of the items of discussion in these talks and the negotiators from the mainland came up with a brilliant idea. Let's just have one big delta airport, they said. We'll put it in Shenzhen, which is central for all of the delta, we'll make it as big as you want because we still have lots of room there and we'll give you people in Hong Kong every privileged access you want - your own customs and immigration channel, your own railway, your own highway, you just tell us.
No, said the Hong Kong negotiators.
Come on, talk sense, said their mainland counterparts. It makes no difference anyway. It's all going to be just one country in a few years' time and we'll have the world's biggest airport right where it's best for us all. You just tell us what you want at Shenzhen and you've got it.
No, said the Hong Kong negotiators.
And No it was. Beijing wanted the softly, softly approach to Hong Kong in the run-up to the handover. Its negotiators therefore gave in. Pointless obstinacy in Hong Kong would be accommodated for the sake of a smooth transition.
So now we have five contending airports in the delta, none of them making a proper return on investment if they are not losing buckets of money. We in Hong Kong alone spent HK$35 billion to build Chek Lap Kok, even more to build the transport connections to it.
Our special benefit from this is to have commercial aircraft blaring out their ascent phase over the harbour every few minutes because the planners forgot to tell us until after all was built that this is where the major take-off path would be. Just forgot, you know. Oversight, you see.
But back to this ballyhoo about 1,000 flights a day.
Let me tell you a story about our airport. Planning for it was somewhat delayed because a financial secretary of the early 1980s, John Bremridge, a Cathay Pacific man, said we didn't need a new one. By the time planning started again in the late 1980s there were other important things to talk about, most notably the handover of sovereignty in 1997. The airport became one of the items of discussion in these talks and the negotiators from the mainland came up with a brilliant idea. Let's just have one big delta airport, they said. We'll put it in Shenzhen, which is central for all of the delta, we'll make it as big as you want because we still have lots of room there and we'll give you people in Hong Kong every privileged access you want - your own customs and immigration channel, your own railway, your own highway, you just tell us.
No, said the Hong Kong negotiators.
Come on, talk sense, said their mainland counterparts. It makes no difference anyway. It's all going to be just one country in a few years' time and we'll have the world's biggest airport right where it's best for us all. You just tell us what you want at Shenzhen and you've got it.
No, said the Hong Kong negotiators.
And No it was. Beijing wanted the softly, softly approach to Hong Kong in the run-up to the handover. Its negotiators therefore gave in. Pointless obstinacy in Hong Kong would be accommodated for the sake of a smooth transition.
So now we have five contending airports in the delta, none of them making a proper return on investment if they are not losing buckets of money. We in Hong Kong alone spent HK$35 billion to build Chek Lap Kok, even more to build the transport connections to it.
Our special benefit from this is to have commercial aircraft blaring out their ascent phase over the harbour every few minutes because the planners forgot to tell us until after all was built that this is where the major take-off path would be. Just forgot, you know. Oversight, you see.
But back to this ballyhoo about 1,000 flights a day.
What a BS piece. Even in the best case scenario - AEL and route 8 can be built to Bao'an flawlessly, HKSAR laws and rights get extended over the designated terminals, road and railway - we'd still lose the right to expand when we want to cos it's still Guangdong Provincial land.
Imagine we want to build a third runway in Bao'an and Guangdong Province tells us no cos it doesn't meet their hurdle rate/they don't feel the congestion's bad enough/we haven't bribed (ooops, given adequate "incentive") to all the people we should to say yes - we'd end up with 2-hour weekday waits on Bao'an like PVG now. Shoot Jake please.
It's the same case with CLP and its LNG terminal - which in that case, the PRC team won the argument and we're all going to have a central LNG terminal in Shenzhen. Now with Fukushima curtailing the use of nuclear power and everyone fighting to bits for LNG, let's see if we can get all the LNG we want.
Last edited by percysmith; Jun 25, 2011 at 7:36 pm