Jul 29, 2014, 10:15 am
Last edit by: Prospero
This thread is dedicated to issues around American Airlines Corporate Security, AAdvantage Fraud division (AKA "Revenue Protection Unit"), and its enforcement of the AAdvantage Terms and Conditions - particularly to selling, buying and bartering awards, miles, upgrades and other instruments - and related issues.
It is okay at this time to gift awards, upgrades, etc. as long as there is absolutely no quid pro quo (no buying or selling or offer to do so, no barter or trade "you give me one now I'll give it back" or anything smacking of prohibited activity. AA is probably the strictest of the US airlines about this. They have a very active and expert AAdvantage Fraud division of the AA Corporate Fraud department, and they can both be aggressive and, some might say merciless - clawing back one's miles and instruments, even closing one's account and terminating status and ability to participate in the AAdvantage program n the future.
There are other ways to commit fraud in AA’s eyes, such as fictitious or fraudulent bookings to try to block seats to increase one’s chances if upgrades, generating tickets to access airside facilities (e.g. lounges) when there is no intent to fly, etc.
To read an example of how the US Department of Transportation has rules on punitive actions by AA, read Joel Hayes vs. American Airlines here (PDF).
Please read on for information and the consensus of knowledgeable members.
Also see AAdvantage Program Terms and Conditions and
American Airlines Conditions of Carriage.
The typical email from AA Corporate Security can not be addressed by calling AAdvantage Customer Service or other methods - you must reply to the email address given. It likely will look like this:
Excellent summaries of information (based on the sum of experiences we have seen in this thread over time) of how to respond:
From JonNYC, our resident expert on this:
Older posts have been archived to the
archived thread.
A number of posts regarding AA's confiscation of 60,000 miles from "Mr. Hayes" for allegedly making "fictitious" bookings in search of whether his upgrade would be likely to progress or not, AA IT issues that might have led to this (or not), AA's replies and the USDOT complaint have been moved to a new thread: Hayes, USDOT and AA: "fictitious bookings" and checking upgrades.
NOTE: Posts about members experiencing account security breaches, fraud, theft of awards and instruments have moved to Account fraud / breach: my account compromised, awards stolen, etc..
It is okay at this time to gift awards, upgrades, etc. as long as there is absolutely no quid pro quo (no buying or selling or offer to do so, no barter or trade "you give me one now I'll give it back" or anything smacking of prohibited activity. AA is probably the strictest of the US airlines about this. They have a very active and expert AAdvantage Fraud division of the AA Corporate Fraud department, and they can both be aggressive and, some might say merciless - clawing back one's miles and instruments, even closing one's account and terminating status and ability to participate in the AAdvantage program n the future.
There are other ways to commit fraud in AA’s eyes, such as fictitious or fraudulent bookings to try to block seats to increase one’s chances if upgrades, generating tickets to access airside facilities (e.g. lounges) when there is no intent to fly, etc.
To read an example of how the US Department of Transportation has rules on punitive actions by AA, read Joel Hayes vs. American Airlines here (PDF).
Please read on for information and the consensus of knowledgeable members.
E.g. AAdvantage Terms and Conditions excerpt: "At no time may AAdvantage mileage credit or award tickets be purchased, sold, advertised for sale or bartered (including but not limited to transferring, gifting, or promising mileage credit or award tickets in exchange for support of a certain business, product or charity and/or participation in an auction, sweepstakes, raffle or contest). Any such mileage or tickets are void if transferred for cash or other consideration. Violators (including any passenger who uses a purchased or bartered award ticket) may be liable for damages and litigation costs, including American Airlines attorneys’ fees incurred in enforcing this rule." (This extends to other AA instruments such as Systemwide Upgrades, etc., selling of extra AirPass seats or baggage allowance, etc.)
American Airlines Conditions of Carriage.
<snip>"While you may consider the AAdvantage Miles in your account to be *your* property, they are actually the property of AA, and AA permits you to redeem them within the program rules set by AA. If AA detects any impropriety (real or perceived) in the use of AAdvantage miles, they reserve the right to confiscate the miles and/or close/delete the account."...
My name is Fname Lname, and I am an analyst with American Airlines. One of my responsibilities is investigating possible instances of fraud, misrepresentation, and violations of the General AAdvantage Program Conditions. Today, I’m writing you about your AAdvantage account # XXXXXXXX
We have reason to believe that the transactions listed below violate one or more of the AAdvantage program conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, prohibition of purchase, sale, or barter of mileage credit and or award tickets. As a result, American Airlines has suspended your AAdvantage membership privileges and use of AA.com® in conjunction with your account – and may terminate your account as a result of our findings. We are in the process of completing the investigation into this matter, and I would like to hear the events as they occurred from your perspective. Please respond to this message by <date> with complete and accurate information regarding the activities listed below:
<specific activity /activities in question>
Required Information:·
To protect and retain the integrity of the AAdvantage program, it is vital that firm action be taken as a result of any violation of the AAdvantage Program Conditions, whether intentional or not. Failure to respond completely and accurately by <insert date>, will result in the termination of your AAdvantage membership and all its benefits, including all remaining AAdvantage miles in your account and any award tickets issued from it. Please, understand that our overall motivation is to preserve the benefits of the AAdvantage program, rather than to take punitive action against individuals. To that end, it’s not unusual for us to release the AAdvantage account suspension once we receive all the detail we request and reconcile it with the results of our investigation. We hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Fname Lname, etc.
We have reason to believe that the transactions listed below violate one or more of the AAdvantage program conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, prohibition of purchase, sale, or barter of mileage credit and or award tickets. As a result, American Airlines has suspended your AAdvantage membership privileges and use of AA.com® in conjunction with your account – and may terminate your account as a result of our findings. We are in the process of completing the investigation into this matter, and I would like to hear the events as they occurred from your perspective. Please respond to this message by <date> with complete and accurate information regarding the activities listed below:
<specific activity /activities in question>
Required Information:·
- Passenger name·
- Origin and destination cities on the travel itinerary·
- Purchaser name (individual, company and/or website), including:·
- Copy of any advertisements to which you responded offering to purchase/broker the use of your AAdvantage miles·
- Purchaser contact information, such as:·
- Mailing address·
- Email address·
- Telephone number·
- Website profile name·
- Your statement fully disclosing the details surrounding the sale/barter transaction referenced above·
- Copy of all communication between yourself and the purchaser·
- Documentation that you received payment
- Copy of all communication between yourself and the purchaser·
- Your statement fully disclosing the details surrounding the sale/barter transaction referenced above·
- Website profile name·
- Telephone number·
- Email address·
- Mailing address·
- Purchaser contact information, such as:·
- Copy of any advertisements to which you responded offering to purchase/broker the use of your AAdvantage miles·
- Purchaser name (individual, company and/or website), including:·
- Origin and destination cities on the travel itinerary·
To protect and retain the integrity of the AAdvantage program, it is vital that firm action be taken as a result of any violation of the AAdvantage Program Conditions, whether intentional or not. Failure to respond completely and accurately by <insert date>, will result in the termination of your AAdvantage membership and all its benefits, including all remaining AAdvantage miles in your account and any award tickets issued from it. Please, understand that our overall motivation is to preserve the benefits of the AAdvantage program, rather than to take punitive action against individuals. To that end, it’s not unusual for us to release the AAdvantage account suspension once we receive all the detail we request and reconcile it with the results of our investigation. We hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Fname Lname, etc.
Blogger Gary Leff: "If you made that mistake and got caught, American usually will go light on first-time offenders provided that they ‘come clean’ and are forthcoming about whom a systemwide was sold to or purchased from and what the terms were. They are most interested in serial brokers and are willing to ‘plea bargain’ with minor offenders to get the Evip-lords. There may be a consequence but it should fall short of account shutdown and forfeiture of miles." Link
I am going to try and provide a summary of the advice. For the record, this is 90% from Jon (JonNYC) and a little bit from other comments and circumstances, I am just trying to provide an easy summary, without all the explanations and reasons. I am happy to have others update/correct.
1. Respond to the questions in the email which you received. Don't try to call or email that person, or anyone else, at AA or DOT or whatever. Just answer the email.
2. Answer every question, in detail, with the facts. Don't use sarcasm or "you should know" or anything else that sounds like to you are avoiding the exact question being asked.
3. Assume that they know more about the true facts than you do. It might not always be true, but in most cases they have way more information than you might assume. So go back to #2, above.
4. If you did ANYTHING that was wrong (not under your interpretation of what you think the rules should be, but based on what the rules actually say) then, if you want to continue to participate in the AAdvantage program, tell them about your error and tell them that you are prepared to pay a correct penalty for your mistake (miles/status/etc) and then go back to #2, above.
1. Respond to the questions in the email which you received. Don't try to call or email that person, or anyone else, at AA or DOT or whatever. Just answer the email.
2. Answer every question, in detail, with the facts. Don't use sarcasm or "you should know" or anything else that sounds like to you are avoiding the exact question being asked.
3. Assume that they know more about the true facts than you do. It might not always be true, but in most cases they have way more information than you might assume. So go back to #2, above.
4. If you did ANYTHING that was wrong (not under your interpretation of what you think the rules should be, but based on what the rules actually say) then, if you want to continue to participate in the AAdvantage program, tell them about your error and tell them that you are prepared to pay a correct penalty for your mistake (miles/status/etc) and then go back to #2, above.
Perfect and 100%.
<snip>
The analysts that do this for a living have the same reactions that any humans do to being lied to and/or condescended to. Therefore, as well as being 100% truthful, go out of your way NOT to be:
-condescending
-brusque
-sharp, terse and/or sounding like you're being inconvenienced
-insulting
-just generally slippery, aloof, evasive and unforthcoming. As mentioned; they know more than you think they do. Always.
DO be apologetic, contrite and extremely cooperative.
Finally, any version of "...in which case, I'll be emailing [insert name or department here] to tell them how I, a [insert years flying AA, status, MMer, $$ spent, etc] customer is being treated" and/or mention of your lawyer, DOT, Chris Elliot (
), this forum, any blogger, etc. DO NOT DO THIS.
<snip>
The analysts that do this for a living have the same reactions that any humans do to being lied to and/or condescended to. Therefore, as well as being 100% truthful, go out of your way NOT to be:
-condescending
-brusque
-sharp, terse and/or sounding like you're being inconvenienced
-insulting
-just generally slippery, aloof, evasive and unforthcoming. As mentioned; they know more than you think they do. Always.
DO be apologetic, contrite and extremely cooperative.
Finally, any version of "...in which case, I'll be emailing [insert name or department here] to tell them how I, a [insert years flying AA, status, MMer, $$ spent, etc] customer is being treated" and/or mention of your lawyer, DOT, Chris Elliot (
), this forum, any blogger, etc. DO NOT DO THIS.archived thread.
A number of posts regarding AA's confiscation of 60,000 miles from "Mr. Hayes" for allegedly making "fictitious" bookings in search of whether his upgrade would be likely to progress or not, AA IT issues that might have led to this (or not), AA's replies and the USDOT complaint have been moved to a new thread: Hayes, USDOT and AA: "fictitious bookings" and checking upgrades.
NOTE: Posts about members experiencing account security breaches, fraud, theft of awards and instruments have moved to Account fraud / breach: my account compromised, awards stolen, etc..
Account audit / blocked / fraud: award / miles / SWU / sale, barter, etc.
Jun 30, 2017, 7:13 am
#226
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,730
If you truly mean your account is "closed" (as in, terminated-- not locked pending investigation-- rather, permanently closed,) then, well, I'd certainly advise against, as they'll catch up with ya at some point, so, I'd switch to different FF program.
Jun 30, 2017, 7:14 am
#227
Join Date: Jun 2017
Programs: American Airlines
Posts: 4
How do you know? I heard someone opened a new one after a few months?
I didn't answer the threatened email and now I can't log in
I didn't answer the threatened email and now I can't log in
Last edited by JY1024; Jun 30, 2017 at 10:12 am Reason: Merged consecutive posts
Jun 30, 2017, 7:18 am
#229
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Global
Posts: 5,998
If you hope to participate in the AAdv program in the future-- wth -any- "peace of mind" (that you don't wake up one day and find -that- account closed,) then you have to deal with this now, today.
If you truly mean your account is "closed" (as in, terminated-- not locked pending investigation-- rather, permanently closed,) then, well, I'd certainly advise against, as they'll catch up with ya at some point, so, I'd switch to different FF program.
If you truly mean your account is "closed" (as in, terminated-- not locked pending investigation-- rather, permanently closed,) then, well, I'd certainly advise against, as they'll catch up with ya at some point, so, I'd switch to different FF program.
What did you do? JonNYC or others *might* be able to help you directly or you can tell us what you did and you can get the collective wisdom of this thread.
Jun 30, 2017, 7:23 am
#230
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: JFK, DCA, BUR, YVR
Programs: AC, AS, BA, DL, HH (D), MR (T/LTP), UA (*S), UScAAre (PLT/1,87MM), WN
Posts: 5,207
I know because AA Corporate Security is more than a bit like Bryan Mills. They have a very particular set of skills. Skills they have acquired over very long careers. Skills that make them a nightmare for people like you. If you cooperate with them now, that will be the end of it. They will not look for you. They will not pursue you. But if you don't, they will look for you, they will find you, and they will kill you(r account).
Jun 30, 2017, 7:31 am
#231
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,730
Still doesn't determine 100% if at this point you are locked or terminated (although I'm starting to assume the latter.) I mean if the email they sent that you didn't reply to is weeks/month old it does, but not if it was recent, as I assume your account was locked simultaneous with the email going out.
SO, to restate all you need to know on this subject:
If you hope to participate in the AAdv program in the future-- wth -any- "peace of mind" (that you don't wake up one day and find -that- account closed,) then you have to deal with this now, today.
If you truly mean your account is "closed" (as in, terminated-- not locked pending investigation-- rather, permanently closed,) then, well, I'd certainly advise against, as they'll catch up with ya at some point, so, I'd switch to different FF program.
SO, to restate all you need to know on this subject:
If you hope to participate in the AAdv program in the future-- wth -any- "peace of mind" (that you don't wake up one day and find -that- account closed,) then you have to deal with this now, today.
If you truly mean your account is "closed" (as in, terminated-- not locked pending investigation-- rather, permanently closed,) then, well, I'd certainly advise against, as they'll catch up with ya at some point, so, I'd switch to different FF program.
Jun 30, 2017, 7:31 am
#232
Join Date: Jun 2017
Programs: American Airlines
Posts: 4
I know because AA Corporate Security is more than a bit like Bryan Mills. They have a very particular set of skills. Skills they have acquired over very long careers. Skills that make them a nightmare for people like you. If you cooperate with them now, that will be the end of it. They will not look for you. They will not pursue you. But if you don't, they will look for you, they will find you, and they will kill you(r account).
Jun 30, 2017, 7:52 am
#235
Join Date: Jun 2017
Programs: American Airlines
Posts: 4
Jun 30, 2017, 7:55 am
#236
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: SFO
Programs: AA EXP
Posts: 5,270
Jun 30, 2017, 8:07 am
#237
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: New York
Programs: AA EXP 1.0mm, not sure where I am with hotels these days
Posts: 2,795
Wouldn't it be fun if using the rewards from your new card, you flew somewhere far away on the first leg from where you are now, and AA caught up and revoked the award before you had a chance to fly home?
As a number have advised up thread, you should consider a new FF program. Trying to outrun and out think trained and experienced AA staff is fruitless.
As a number have advised up thread, you should consider a new FF program. Trying to outrun and out think trained and experienced AA staff is fruitless.
Jun 30, 2017, 8:14 am
#238
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: SAN and before that...EWR....AA EXP (3MM)..HH LIFETIME DIAMOND..AVIS PREFERRED PLUS
Posts: 678
That can and does happen. Ive read about it numerous times. Folks have been met by suits and forced to pay for their flight home. Guess you can tell, I really don't care for cheats/sneaks.
Jun 30, 2017, 9:26 am
#239
Join Date: May 2012
Location: HNL
Programs: AA PP 1.8MM, PC Spire, Hertz 5*, Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 1,030
<removed quote of and reply to deleted post>
I would say you have a 50% chance of success if you do things right. Are you IT savvy enough to give yourself that chance? I believe I am and I wouldn't take that chance. It isn't worth it.
They track everything. It will look very suspicious opening an account and attempting to burn it so quickly. I'm sure CITI shares some of its information with AA and there is probably enough in there to connect the two. They track your IP, email, and physical addresses along with your associates. They have your name which CITI will share even if you put a different one on the AA account.
Is it possible? Yes. Is it worth the hassle? No. I would suggest you don't do it and move on.
I would say you have a 50% chance of success if you do things right. Are you IT savvy enough to give yourself that chance? I believe I am and I wouldn't take that chance. It isn't worth it.
They track everything. It will look very suspicious opening an account and attempting to burn it so quickly. I'm sure CITI shares some of its information with AA and there is probably enough in there to connect the two. They track your IP, email, and physical addresses along with your associates. They have your name which CITI will share even if you put a different one on the AA account.
Is it possible? Yes. Is it worth the hassle? No. I would suggest you don't do it and move on.
Last edited by Microwave; Jun 30, 2017 at 4:30 pm
Jun 30, 2017, 9:30 am
#240
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Programs: UA 1K 1MMer & LT UC (when flying UA); Hyatt Credit Cardist; HHonors Diamond; Marriott Gold via UA 1K
Posts: 6,956
<removed quote of deleted post>
Selling miles is against the AAdvantage program rules. I suggest you read the wiki at the top of this thread. Contact AA, admit you were wrong, apologize fully, and see if they will reinstate your account. Don't expect to get any of your miles back.
Selling miles is against the AAdvantage program rules. I suggest you read the wiki at the top of this thread. Contact AA, admit you were wrong, apologize fully, and see if they will reinstate your account. Don't expect to get any of your miles back.
Last edited by Microwave; Jun 30, 2017 at 4:34 pm