WestJet denies Ont. man refund after cancer diagnosis
Aug 25, 2019, 1:42 pm
#31
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Vancouver
Programs: Aeroplan, Mileage Plus, WestJet Gold, AMEX Plat
Posts: 2,026
no we are not discussing what warrants a passenger fit to fly.
we are discussing what warrants insurability or under what grounds would a passenger receive a refund . Even travel insurance won’t cover a pre-existing condition such as a cancer diagnosis in order to receive a refund for trip cancellation . therefore what make a person think an airline ought to? Because of human compassion ? hog wash. Then that same argument could be applied to every single medical life event such as HIV diagnosis or Ms diagnosis. Or i had a mental day and i dont or cannot travel because im stressed because i broke up with my girlfriend , at what point does this end? There is no such thing as compensation for everything. This guy has cancer and it is going to involve several treatments over the course of years possibly, not just that day he cannot travel. So should he now also go to the bank that has his mortgage or car loan and say i can’t pay because i just got diagnosed with cancer. This is why we take
out disability insurance for these life events .
we are discussing what warrants insurability or under what grounds would a passenger receive a refund . Even travel insurance won’t cover a pre-existing condition such as a cancer diagnosis in order to receive a refund for trip cancellation . therefore what make a person think an airline ought to? Because of human compassion ? hog wash. Then that same argument could be applied to every single medical life event such as HIV diagnosis or Ms diagnosis. Or i had a mental day and i dont or cannot travel because im stressed because i broke up with my girlfriend , at what point does this end? There is no such thing as compensation for everything. This guy has cancer and it is going to involve several treatments over the course of years possibly, not just that day he cannot travel. So should he now also go to the bank that has his mortgage or car loan and say i can’t pay because i just got diagnosed with cancer. This is why we take
out disability insurance for these life events .
To recap, in this case you have a passenger that was going to fly. He now had medical advise saying his is not fit to travel and an airline saying he can not rebook into the future or get a refund because of rules.
Lets assume he says, ok, I will use the flight anyway and by the way may need some special assistance at the airport and in flight as my doctor says I should not be flying, but since you will not let me change the date I am going to fly anyway. How will WS respond? Will WS stick to its position that once he purchased that ticket he must fly or will they deny boarding?
If the WS policy is to deny boarding when a passenger is not fit, then there is the path for him getting a refund. He shows up at the airport on the appropriate day with a doctors not in hand. He would be fully compliant with the original terms of the ticket and still get his refund.
Aug 25, 2019, 7:10 pm
#33
Join Date: Jan 2007
Programs: No single airline or hotel chain is of much use to me anymore.
Posts: 3,279
Only if you book through the airline website who will try to up-sell you with a big glaring pop-up.
I was skeptical when somebody told me they accidentally booked Air Canada Basic Economy through Expedia till I tried it myself.
I was skeptical when somebody told me they accidentally booked Air Canada Basic Economy through Expedia till I tried it myself.
Aug 25, 2019, 7:21 pm
#34
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
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Many airlines allow full refund or free change in case of death or serious illness of the passenger or immediate family member, regardless of the fare conditions (not sure if this carries through to BE on airlines that have this, however), it seems silly not to permit a full refund if proof is provided. Then again cancer diagnosis in itself has a very broad range of meanings, it could be very early stages/benign and possible that the trip doesn't conflict with treatment or after-effects thereof, so it's tricky to define hard rules on when to allow and when not to allow a refund in these circumstances.
Plus, why should cancer patients get preferential treatment compared to those with kidney failure, etc.? And would people really want to share medical records with airlines?
BTW, many cancer patients are fit to fly.
BTW, many cancer patients are fit to fly.
Last edited by MSPeconomist; Aug 25, 2019 at 7:26 pm
Aug 25, 2019, 10:28 pm
#35
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Vancouver
Programs: Aeroplan, Mileage Plus, WestJet Gold, AMEX Plat
Posts: 2,026
If he decides to take the trip, will WestJet accept a passenger knowing that an MD has said he should not be on an aircraft or will they turn him away? If they turn him away will they refund his ticket?
Aug 26, 2019, 1:41 am
#36
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Economy, mostly :(
Programs: Skywards Gold
Posts: 7,801
I'm not saying they should. In fact I wasn't trying to take a position on what the correct handling is, just pointing out that many airlines, in my experience, are more lenient, even if it's somewhat unofficial.
Aug 26, 2019, 9:33 am
#37
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Delta, BC
Posts: 1,646
The argument here is really about neither serious illness or insurability but the industry-wide practice of variable ticket-pricing and refundability.
If consumers will shift their buying habits for a few $ on a flight then that same consumer must also take the responsibility for the contractual terms and conditions of that decision and for the most basic fare consider the $ spent forever when that fare is booked with NO ability for a change on the consumers' part.
Yes, this leads to bad PR, lose-lose, horrible leg-room, bin-space wars, gate-lice, extra-fee+extra-fee, and yes, LOW fares - lower than ever in history when inflation is considered, despite the complaints. More people can afford to travel than ever.
There is no moral high-ground here. Shaming someone to break contractual terms that were well known in advance is no more ethical than failing to take compassion by a corporation.
If consumers will shift their buying habits for a few $ on a flight then that same consumer must also take the responsibility for the contractual terms and conditions of that decision and for the most basic fare consider the $ spent forever when that fare is booked with NO ability for a change on the consumers' part.
Yes, this leads to bad PR, lose-lose, horrible leg-room, bin-space wars, gate-lice, extra-fee+extra-fee, and yes, LOW fares - lower than ever in history when inflation is considered, despite the complaints. More people can afford to travel than ever.
There is no moral high-ground here. Shaming someone to break contractual terms that were well known in advance is no more ethical than failing to take compassion by a corporation.
Aug 26, 2019, 1:39 pm
#38
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Vancouver
Programs: Aeroplan, Mileage Plus, WestJet Gold, AMEX Plat
Posts: 2,026
....
Yes, this leads to bad PR, lose-lose, horrible leg-room, bin-space wars, gate-lice, extra-fee+extra-fee, and yes, LOW fares - lower than ever in history when inflation is considered, despite the complaints. More people can afford to travel than ever.
There is no moral high-ground here. Shaming someone to break contractual terms that were well known in advance is no more ethical than failing to take compassion by a corporation.
Yes, this leads to bad PR, lose-lose, horrible leg-room, bin-space wars, gate-lice, extra-fee+extra-fee, and yes, LOW fares - lower than ever in history when inflation is considered, despite the complaints. More people can afford to travel than ever.
There is no moral high-ground here. Shaming someone to break contractual terms that were well known in advance is no more ethical than failing to take compassion by a corporation.
Why would WS want a passenger on its flight that an MD has said is not fit to fly?
Why would this person want to fly against his doctors recommendations?
In business when two parties reach the point where the situation has changed and it is in neither parties interest to continue they renegotiate the contract. WS is refusing to come to the table and sort this out with this passenger. (Sorry, forgot in the case of WS, they are not passengers, there are guests."). Instead WS is waiting this out, hopping the passenger does not try to fly.
Aug 26, 2019, 4:05 pm
#39
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: YYZ/MGA
Programs: AA 1MM Lifetime Gold, AA Platinum, WS Gold, Marriott Bonvoy Gold
Posts: 7,607
People want these terrible fares because they shop only for price and have to assume all the risks and understand nothing is included for the fare including changes and refunds. But then they want it to be a flex fare when they need it to be a flex fare.
I'd prefer they limited basic to Swoop. Perhaps then people choose halfway decent airline with typical services and inclusions or the sardine can express where you are velcroed to the wings and have to wear all your clothes vs. check a bag.
Aug 26, 2019, 4:44 pm
#41
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The World
Programs: WS Platinum, Marriott Titanium, DL Gold, UA Silver
Posts: 1,478
That’s not helped by the fact that the difference in the “product” for, say, Basic vs Econo vs Flex are really just artificial constructs. They’re just fare rules typed into a tariff that nobody ever sees — while the flight and the seat and the on-board service are all identical.
Frankly it’s a tough thing for the average consumer to wrap their heads around. It’s the same as if Cineplex were to charge three different prices for the exact same seat for the same theatre at the same time - with the only difference being the rules about how the tickets are used.
I have no problem with WestJet (or any airline) offering a Basic fare. To keep them profitable - and keep them flying - it makes sense. But the whole no change/no cancel rule, in my mind, is just silly. If I buy an Econo fare and get dinged a $200 change fee, I’ve become a wildly profitable customer for WestJet. If I buy a Basic fare and find out I can’t change when I need to, (1) WS makes no additional money in most cases and (2) I’ll become a wildly upset customer and (3) I may well become the “WestJet is Mean” story of the week on CBC or Global News. I don’t get what the upside of “no changes on Basic fares” is to WestJet. It doesn’t make sense.
Keep Basic. Make it less desirable seating, auto assigned seating, last boarding group, no ability to buy an upgrade, and no WS dollar accumulation. Period. If a Basic customer wants to change or cancel - whether due to serious illness or grandpa passed away or whatever - allow changes with the same (stupidly big) change fee that Econo customers are hit with. The result: bad press stories stop appearing, and you make lots more profit from change fees.
Aug 26, 2019, 7:14 pm
#42
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Vancouver
Programs: Aeroplan, Mileage Plus, WestJet Gold, AMEX Plat
Posts: 2,026
Aug 26, 2019, 7:32 pm
#43
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: NT Australia
Programs: QF WP
Posts: 4,160
yes. I only add it as there was a question about it existing at all
Aug 26, 2019, 10:20 pm
#45
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: NT Australia
Programs: QF WP
Posts: 4,160
I suppose it could be viewed as upsell as it’s basically saying “look how much more you get from a non basic fare!”. Of course as with any kind of upsell, only those who haven’t thought about it previously will be vulnerable to it. Everyone else will just buy the fare they want