BF263533

In the long run, Pittsburgh and other cities in the Ohio and Mississippi River basins, and the Great Lake cities may see a turn around in their economies because they have access to a more stable water source, unlike Atlanta and other cities in the Southeast and the West that will be facing a continuing major water crisis in future years. Airports like PIT and St. Louis may then rebound.

Wave1

Interestingly, the landside terminal, ticketing areas, parking, security lines, arrivals and departure areas and baggage claim are all busier than ever as the O&D is at a historical high currently at PIT. Of course, this is due to the competition, and subsequent sharp drop in ticket prices brought on by the demise of the US fortress hub.

The airside though is another story. The A.M rush still seems very busy to me with all of the carriers having multiple flights and US still having a decent flight bank in the A.M., but the rest of the day the airport is a shade of its former self and since US virtually eliminated the later evening (8-9PM) flight bank, the airport is essentially a ghost town after about 6:30PM. In fact, after around 6:30, it feels like a medium sized regional airport with a flight here and a flight there, one minute the terminal is busy and then empty as a flight comes in, the PAX clear the terminal and then empty again. Bizarre for such a huge state of the art facility. WN has added a lot of life to the "B" concourse though and I expect that growth to continue. I wonder if US will consolidate to the "A" concourse and WN will takeover most of "B".

One nice thing is that I get the US club almost to myself...well usually a handful of us.

BostonMark

Boston is poorly located for a hub - much like San Diego is. It's in the corner of the country - except for local traffic and maybe traffic going to Europe, BOS is going to be out of the wayfor connecting traffic. Add to that the fact that it's also prone to severe weather delays because of where it is located.

However, Boston is a focus city for 4 airlines - US, AA, DL and B6 all have major presences at BOS with 15-20 gates each, there are several international carriers serving the Boston market and WN has a major presence at MHT and PVD "to serve the Boston area." Boston has 102 gates and served 27,000,000 passengers in 2005. Straight from their website: Boston Logan International Airport is currently served by 56 scheduled and non scheduled air carriers, of which 45 are scheduled airlines, including 16 foreign flag carriers. Boston Logan International Airport has domestic service to 76 destinations and international service to 33 destinations.

Simply put, Boston has the O&D traffic necessary to support multiple airlines with focus city operations and a lot of international traffic, Pittsburgh does not. Still, BOS has some of the PHL syndrome - for many smaller centers you still have to connect somewhere else - it's not hub flying.

I hope in your analogy you're not dissing the Penguins - they've done a great job keeping them in Pittsburgh when other teams have moved. The Pens (and probably the Pirates to some degree too) suffer from "small market" syndrome. When I talk sports franchises I'm thinking more about some of the owners looking to abandon relatively new facilities, such as the Preds in Nashville, to find greener pastures for their franchise. Well, US has done the same thing - they've taken their planes from PIT to find greener pastures for them to fly in.

20+ flights from WN in 2 years is great and it may well go to 25 or 30 in the next few years. However, if the space was available, WN would do even more at PHL. It's funny how everyone here is bashing US for favoring PHL over PIT, but no one holds WN to the same criticism - they're also favoring PHL to PIT - that's where the money is.

PIT is a great facility and I'd love to see someone with a big presence there - I would consider flying them because I'd rather fly through PIT than PHL (though I must admit to liking CLT too.) I just think there's a lot of bitter hand wringing - the people in PIT got what they wanted - significantly lower fares and a strong LCC presence. It came at the cost of convenient non-stops to most locations. You generally can't have your cake and eat it too.

burghlaw

Although I haven't read anything lately about retail sales at the Airmall, my understanding is that although merchants lost the business from connecting traffic, they have grown because local O&D passengers spend more time at the airport post 9/11. Hours are much more limited because of flight times.

I also think that carriers are not willing to make a large expansion (through PIT or any other airport right now). They were burned in the last downturn , and are probably very cautious now for that reason. Even Southwest is watching its growth right now. When times are good, you may see another airline expand in PIT. I would not expect it from a legacy carrier, however. Since WN and other LCC's have arrived, the airport will never be able to support a fortress hub again, which is the only way that PIT could sustain a hub. i haven't figured out Co and Cleveland, yet.

I am curious to see the work being done in the Southwest gate area. I can't imagine the county doing work on those gates if they hadn't been leased by a carrier. I am flying to Las vegas on Southwest in three weeks, and will check it out.

burghlaw

This is a real misconception. The county and state government bent over backwards offering incentives to keep US presence here. See my post here: http://www.usaviation.com/forums/ind...3&hl=burghlaw1. Heck, the county just gave US $16 million in incentives to headquarter its operation center here, only to have US pull back further and close its crew base (net loss of jobs despite the incentives). The fact of the matter is that US was in survival mode when it decided to de-hub PUT. It determined that it needed to unload its highest labor and real estate costs. Both unforntunately were in PIT.

Go to any fortress hub, and you will find the media complaining about high prices. It was no different here. Now, though, US is no different than any other airline that flies here, and I get to decide where I get the most bang for my buck. To my amazement, people here still fly US to get their frequent flyer miles even though it is a poor excuse for an airline compared to others. For example, an acquaintence of mine flew US through Charlotte to Atlanta last week, even though DL and FL provide nonstop service. Go figure.

Cargojon

Isn't that the point of FF programs and flyertalk? Heck I flew through ATL the other week to get to MIA, when I could have taken AA non-stop. I have no benefit to flying AA, so I didn't.

Jumpgate

Come on guys ... Yes, B6, WN, and maybe FL may add a scattering of flights over the coming years, but do any of you really believe a big LCC or Legacy carrier is going to swoop in and make PIT a hub?

I'm as sad about it as everyone else, but with a few exceptions, PIT is going to be a strictly "to-hub"/spoke city for the foreseeable future.

I remember when US first started the drastic cuts, the PIT airport authority was trying to spin it "Just wait and see! We're going to have MASSIVE new flights on other carriers and every route will still be covered!" Remember all those well-worded press releases about how they are in talks with Lufthansa, British Airways, and even SAS (!) for resumed Europe service?

Well, um, that never happened, and the airport authority has stopped the spin machine.

Sad, yes, but unless Pittsburgh's population spikes in the coming decade (which I hope it does), people will have to connect unless they are flying to a hub.

FrequentHopper

Everyone knows I'm no US-booster, but all this rhetoric about "US abusing the bankruptcy process" is pure malarkey.

If not for Chapter 11 (and the AWA merger), US Airways would be out of business, and PIT, PHL and CLT would all be ghosts of their present selves in terms of connecting traffic and nonstop flights.

Some people don't like the decisions that US made -- such as downsizing PIT in favor of CLT as a reliever hub. Many of US's decisions since emergence from bankruptcy have been boneheaded to say the least.

But the whole "US used the bankruptcy system to screw PIT" conspiracy theory needs to be put to bed. PIT largely screwed itself with its shrinking population (under 400,000 in the city proper), and if US hadn't gone Chapter 11 and gotten its costs under control -- including killing masses of unprofitable PIT flying -- the lament would instead be how much everyone in the hubs misses US and its network in the east.

In short, US had to cut somewhere to survive, and PIT made the most sense to cut. The decision has been made -- take the lesson (which many PIT civic leaders refuse to do) and get government out of the business of subsidizing private businesses to the tune of over $1 billion. People have to learn that in the contemporary business environment, there's no such thing as a company that can make long-term promises about hubs or employment. If US had stuck to the perceived promise of PIT as its largest hub, it would have continued operating one there until liquidation day sometime in 2004, and PIT would be getting even less revenue today.

Either way, the government building PIT as pork for US was a bad decision by the politicians. Having them blame US alone is stupid -- we all know how business conditions change.

FrequentHopper

Just ask the conspiracy theorists. US downsized PIT and filed bankruptcy SOLELY to screw them.

And they did it out of a sheer sense of spite towards the people of Pittsburgh.

The reality is that PIT was a thriving, hugely profitable operation that was never doing better until US management decided it wanted to hurt the region by downsizing this essential hub.

If US had been smart, they would have closed CLT and downsized Philadelphia by 65%, routing everything through PIT, because it was the most profitable hub in the system.

Or something like that.

The West coast has the Pacific -- and desalinization plants are cheap.

The Midwest still has its corrupt politicians and poor business climate. Water can be piped in to San Diego or Las Vegas -- corrupt politicians, poor business climates, high taxes and narrow attitudes cannot be piped out of dying cities like PIT and STL.

Geography has less to do with the failure of those cities than culture. Just read a bit of Richard Florida (a Pittsburgher himself) to learn more.

People and business are highly mobile. Regions that don't cater to new ideas and creative people turn into shrinking, dead ghost towns. If PIT really wants to become a thriving center of commerce and innovation, it's going to need to change a lot more than ease of water supply -- it's going to need to attract, rather than chase off, the people who make great companies happen.

Ironically, many of the great technology companies that left for Boston, Philadelphia or the West Coast started in the 'Burgh -- but left because of the high taxes, excessive regulations, poor business climate, smarmy politicians, and an inability to attract and retain tech workers.

If that changes, there will be new business, population growth, new jobs, and an airline willing to operate a hub there.

Jumpgate

I went to college in PIT, and I can attest that folks there are really trying to reverse this. Pittsburgh has some large and very prominent universities, however the moment students finish their degrees, they get the heck out of Pittsburgh. At my university, it was a given that after graduation you moved away (mostly to California, New York, Boston, and DC) - the few that stayed in Pittsburgh were part of an EXTREMELY small minority and often looked at as odd.

CMU and Pitt are working hard to reverse this. In fact, the "brain drain" is a common term that Yinzers (term non-natives living in Pittsburgh use to refer to native folks from Pittsburgh) are all aware of an often on the news. The universities have fostered business incubators, and the regulatory landscape of Pittsburgh has changed to make it easier for new business. They've got a young mayor who has gotten a lot of positive publicity, and the cost of living there is minuscule compared to other Eastern cities. The next 10 - 15 years will be interesting in Pittsburgh as I can see it really taking off, or ending up just struggling to survive.

Wilbur

PIT today certainly seems very different than 20-30 years ago. I seem to remember several different passenger airlines dropping DC-10s and L1011s onto PIT daily, and BA used to fly a 747 in as well.

What is the biggest aircraft you see there now? FedEx's cargo MD-11s?

formeraa

Umm, not many cities are seeing DC-10's or L-1011's on a daily basis anymore. There are a whole list of thriving airports which don't meet your criteria.

That being said, PIT is not a huge O&D market. Most strong hub airports need a strong local market for their flights. That's why hubs tend to gravitate toward the much larger cities. So, that's why the airport authority hasn't been able to entice any other airline into hubbing at PIT.

ClueByFour

I wonder how the conspiracy theorists explain away CLE and CVG, absent the fact that the incumbent airlines there seem to know which end is up.

I don't expect a really good answer, but it's always fun to watch the squirming.

Please post a source that's the least bit credible indicating that desalinization is cheap relative to any other form (except wastewater recycling, maybe) of freshwater production. You will note that the only places that do it in bulk are desert countries with huge oil reserves which they need both to fund the infrastructure cost and provide the necessary energy inputs.

I don't think that proximity to the Great Lakes is going to be economically important for a few hundred years, but to imply that desalinization is going to save the desert Southwest and/or the West Coast from the impending water shortages is hilarious. To state that desalinization is "cheap" is simply wrong.

Richard Florida was born in Newark and currently teaches out of Toronto. If you are going to toss his name around, at least try to get it accurate, rather than tossing the "a Pittsburgher himself" thing in there. He's on his second (or third, depending upon how you look at it) post-CMU position.

His theories have also taken a beating since the dot-com bubble went, and are getting throughly trounced with the subprime bubble going. And, they don't even really work if you take Pittsburgh as an example (which has a high "bohemian" factor, a decent "gay factor", and all the other things that, if you believe his work, should lead to prosperity).

If you look at the entire metro area, businesses are actually moving in. Westinghouse could have bailed--they moved to Butler county instead (passing on offers from, among other places, CLT). BoNY-Mellon has actually added jobs. Seagate and Google and Rand have midwestern operations in town. US (although I personally would have hoped the state would have given them the finger) is putting the Ops center there. The company I work for (who has sent me away from the 'Burgh for years now) is doubling it's space (Fortune 250).

Again--at least get the right facts before conjuring up someone like Richard Florida.

warbo

It is absolutely a shame. PIT is such a pleasant, efficient airport. Shame it can't replace PHL as an international hub, but it probably just doesn't have the international traffic to warrant it. Nonetheless, its design is so much better and it could be so much more effective than PHL.

BostonMark

Well, for starters PIT-PHL is 268 mile; CLE-EWR is 404 miles and CVG-ATL is 373 miles while CVG to JFK is 589 miles (all mileage from Milecalc.) PIT is by far the closest to the nearest alternative hub. More importantly, CLE and EWR are very clearly in two very different regions as are CVG and ATL/JFK.

PIT really isn't midwest, but really isn't east coast - for a segment of the population it may be conveniently located, but with PHL on the east coast, CLT in the south and PHX in the west, you have alternative hubs which are well placed and have significant O&D traffic to support them. In the past, PIT would have been a great place for people in the midwest to connect and fly on to the southwest or CA - now they can do those flights through PHX.

Likewise, CO has EWR, CLE and IAH - without CLE they miss serving a major section of the population that don't want to fly that far east to fly west or vice-versa. Similarly, DL has JFK, ATL, CVG and SLC - 4 very well placed hubs.

It's the same as BWI - that hub didn't make sense with BWI being 90 miles from PHL and 210 miles from PIT. If US had kept BWI, PIT, PHL, DCA, CLT as hubs it would be a dead airline. They'd have too much overlap in ways that wouldn't make sense.

The logic usually used is PIT is bigger than CLE or CVG, but that's an oversimplification - aside from not having as robust and economy right now, it just doesn't fit strategically the way that it did in the past, at least not for US. CLE and CVG fit a strategic niche for their airlines in a way that PIT did not and can not for US.

Clearly there's no love for the way Doug Parker and company run the airline, but I would bet that US Airways will survive in the near term better than some of the competition. They have issues they need to address - pulling down PIT shouldn't be one of them - it seems to be a sensible long term move.