Is US Customer Service Always Useless?
Nov 25, 2013, 11:23 pm
#31
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: High Point, NC
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I absolutely agree that consistency should be the goal where-ever possible. Aside from the difficulty of having a change fund on every airplane, part of the problem is that US probably has more feeder affiliates than any other major carrier, even discounting the two owned affiliates and Air Wisconsin (which only flies for US). Those contract affiliates have multiple mainline partner's to please so having one policy - cash or cashless - is nearly impossible for them as cash (the traditional payment method on planes) is being or has been phased out at mainline carriers. Of course, dealing with cash is one thing but having a change fund available to FAs is quite another.
Jim
Jim
Nov 26, 2013, 7:28 am
#32
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: PHL / SFO
Programs: free agent
Posts: 797
How about buying drink/snack/meal vouchers at the time of ticketing? The same way as you can buy club access or preferred seating? Print them off at home at OLCI, or have them come out at a kiosk at the airport. Or even BUY them at a kiosk at the gate? Valid for a year etc. etc. Just thinking out loud here. All that is is software. The capital investment in the hardware required has already been spent.
Nov 26, 2013, 9:35 am
#33
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: High Point, NC
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Posts: 9,171
For relatively frequent flyers it'd work - if they couldn't use it this flight they could the next. But for infrequent flyers - one or two trips a year - who make up a sizable part of passengers it would be irksome to buy a voucher then have the FA run out of snack/meal before reaching them. They've wasted their money.
As much as the OP tries to claim that this subject is a "no-brainer", airlines had decades of experience using cash and not one found a good way to make it that "no-brainer" - making change was always a problem that sometimes resulted in one or more passengers getting something for nothing and too often resulted in missing cash from sales. Good for the lucky passenger but these days the airlines are trying to get every dollar possible just to be profitable so giving away stuff is bad from the carrier's perspective and theft is totally unacceptable.
So now there's the cashless concept - ideal for the vast majority of passengers. After all, who doesn't carry a credit card these days? The biggest group, unaccompanied minors, are provided for when the fee is paid. They get a free snack/meal if one is offered on the flight.
Jim
As much as the OP tries to claim that this subject is a "no-brainer", airlines had decades of experience using cash and not one found a good way to make it that "no-brainer" - making change was always a problem that sometimes resulted in one or more passengers getting something for nothing and too often resulted in missing cash from sales. Good for the lucky passenger but these days the airlines are trying to get every dollar possible just to be profitable so giving away stuff is bad from the carrier's perspective and theft is totally unacceptable.
So now there's the cashless concept - ideal for the vast majority of passengers. After all, who doesn't carry a credit card these days? The biggest group, unaccompanied minors, are provided for when the fee is paid. They get a free snack/meal if one is offered on the flight.
Jim
Nov 26, 2013, 9:59 am
#34
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: PHL / SFO
Programs: free agent
Posts: 797
OK, just one more off-the-wall idea then I'll shut up: offer a snack or snack + (alcoholic) drink "combo meal" at the $5, $10 and $20 level. Then, rather than saying "exact change is appreciated", say "exact change is required; any excess gets donated to puppies in flight".
Nov 26, 2013, 10:11 am
#35
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: High Point, NC
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Posts: 9,171
If they're gonna use cash, as US Express does, not a bad idea at all - have the prices match what most will be able to pay without change. The problem of larger bills is always a factor (geez, all I have is hundreds), but sales could provide a built-in change fund of sorts.
Of course the ultimate solution would be to going back to the future - meals, snacks, most items are included when you buy a ticket, just as soft drinks have always been (not forgetting US' attempt to charge for those). The whole "unbundling" thing is a myth anyway - tickets didn't get cheaper, people who wanted any of the previously free items paid more.
Jim
Of course the ultimate solution would be to going back to the future - meals, snacks, most items are included when you buy a ticket, just as soft drinks have always been (not forgetting US' attempt to charge for those). The whole "unbundling" thing is a myth anyway - tickets didn't get cheaper, people who wanted any of the previously free items paid more.
Jim
Nov 26, 2013, 10:35 am
#36
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Washington, DC
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When UA accepted cash, my FA friend a couple of times walked off the plane and made his way home before realizing he still had the airline's cash with him. D'oh! I guess not a big deal if you live near your base and have to report back in a day or three to work again, but I can imagine the logistical nightmare it created for commuter FA's. I once went home with my night's ring when I was a waitress--- a job with a much more centralized point of contact for going off-shift. So we all have the occasional brain fart, which I wouldn't be surprised is part of why the airlines are moving towards a cashless BoB system.
At any rate, I think we've all been on under-catered flights and flights that don't seem to follow any rules as to what you can expect from BoB. UA has some serious inconsistency for BoB on DCA-ORD, sometimes they have the full snack boxes, sometimes only single-items (candy, chips), sometimes nothing. I've been in the OP's place where you don't eat before the flight, assuming you can get a snack in the air, only to land hungry enough to eat your own arm. I get it that it sucks, but I'd have more sympathy for the occasional traveler who doesn't know what to expect than for a frequent flyer. By the time you hit even entry tier status, you should know that nothing in air travel is 100% predictable, and anything you can do to make yourself more comfortable is in your best interest. This goes for everything from bringing your own portable reading light and a pen to bringing a granola bar and some small bills. It would be nice if every flight had a decent BoB selection at a reasonable price and we could consistently use a large bill or a credit card to buy it, but that just works better on paper than it does in reality.
At any rate, I think we've all been on under-catered flights and flights that don't seem to follow any rules as to what you can expect from BoB. UA has some serious inconsistency for BoB on DCA-ORD, sometimes they have the full snack boxes, sometimes only single-items (candy, chips), sometimes nothing. I've been in the OP's place where you don't eat before the flight, assuming you can get a snack in the air, only to land hungry enough to eat your own arm. I get it that it sucks, but I'd have more sympathy for the occasional traveler who doesn't know what to expect than for a frequent flyer. By the time you hit even entry tier status, you should know that nothing in air travel is 100% predictable, and anything you can do to make yourself more comfortable is in your best interest. This goes for everything from bringing your own portable reading light and a pen to bringing a granola bar and some small bills. It would be nice if every flight had a decent BoB selection at a reasonable price and we could consistently use a large bill or a credit card to buy it, but that just works better on paper than it does in reality.
Nov 26, 2013, 11:14 am
#37
Join Date: May 2010
Location: PHL
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Emphasis mine.
I'd be curious to know the last time you personally used public transit in a major US city where the bus driver actually dispensed change. The norm is for drivers to not even handle cash, period. You provide your payment into a fare collection machine, which generally do not dispense change. And even that has fallen by the wayside in lieu of reusable fare cards that need to be loaded at a kiosk, or credit/debit card with an embedded smart chip.
I'd be curious to know the last time you personally used public transit in a major US city where the bus driver actually dispensed change. The norm is for drivers to not even handle cash, period. You provide your payment into a fare collection machine, which generally do not dispense change. And even that has fallen by the wayside in lieu of reusable fare cards that need to be loaded at a kiosk, or credit/debit card with an embedded smart chip.
Nov 26, 2013, 11:17 am
#38
Join Date: May 2010
Location: PHL
Programs: AA EXP, UA *S, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Titanium, Hyatt Exp, IHG Plat, National EE, Sixt Plat
Posts: 648
The title of this thread really bothers me. As most seem to agree, OP's original complaint is relatively petty in the grand scheme of things. To say that US customer service is always useless based on that is a stretch. I, for one, consistently receive sufficient, if not exemplary, customer service from US. That's not to say their aren't a few bad apples on the tree, but those are the exception to the rule IMHO.
Nov 27, 2013, 11:46 am
#39
Original Poster
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To be clear to everyone I was never asking for compensation. Most of you are correct, this is a petty issue. However, in the 21st century air travel has developed to the point where all of the NA carriers offer a safe, reliable product. The choice to fly one airline vs. another are based (amongst other things) on price, loyalty, airports served and service. As a frequent business traveller, it's the small things that make the difference and result in repeated business. Paying for luggage, snacks, same day changes, etc are a fact of life now but if the airlines are going to take your money for things that used to be free, they should not make it difficult. When someone complains (right or wrong) the airline at least needs to be compassionate and not suggest that the traveler should have known better. The obvious solution to this issue is CC on all flights. I'm sure that there are challenges in implementation but they can be solved. An email response that indicated something like this vs. the canned nonsense I received would have gone a long way.
It's been a race to the bottom for the airlines for a while now. Eventually a management team will have the intestinal fortitude to do things better. They might just be surprised and delighted by the results.
It's been a race to the bottom for the airlines for a while now. Eventually a management team will have the intestinal fortitude to do things better. They might just be surprised and delighted by the results.
Nov 27, 2013, 2:03 pm
#40
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: High Point, NC
Programs: None
Posts: 9,171
As a frequent business traveller, it's the small things that make the difference and result in repeated business. Paying for luggage, snacks, same day changes, etc are a fact of life now but if the airlines are going to take your money for things that used to be free, they should not make it difficult.
Jim
Nov 27, 2013, 2:48 pm
#41
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: AVL
Programs: AA EXP ; Cunard Plat
Posts: 4,211
That's a solution good for you (and me), but how 'bout our international visitors who don't carry CCs? They can't buy food on mainline, as is.
My point is that whichever method - cash or plastic - is used, some folks will be inconvenienced.
My point is that whichever method - cash or plastic - is used, some folks will be inconvenienced.
Nov 27, 2013, 7:34 pm
#42
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Internet
Programs: Alaska Mileage Plan
Posts: 714
Speaking as an MBA, if US Airways really has 299 MBAs then they're either incompetent or they're not the ones looking at this problem (they probably aren't, MBAs are expensive and this is something you don't need an MBA to solve).
You guys make this out to be a really huge problem. It isn't. This is Operations 101. There is a very well established science around understanding typical petty cash requirements, and there are even software programs that can help you estimate this. You can even run simulations in order to figure out what you should do. Every fast food restaurant assistant manager in the country can do these calculations. It's just not that hard. You will always end up with edge cases but I disagree with the premise that an airplane is somehow special. If you run out of change during a busy lunch rush at Wendy's it's not possible to recover from that in a period of time that is relevant. The same goes at 30,000 feet. So, you need to get it right to begin with.
Airlines have the further advantage that they know exactly how many people will be on a flight, they know these numbers in advance (so they can make more accurate projections), and they completely control the pricing of every item so can charge nice round amounts. All of this is actually a lot easier for them. School buses full of hungry teenagers who just played a 3 hour long football game don't suddenly appear on an airplane like they can at McDonald's. Incidentally, Ryanair had/has this figured out very well because buy-on-board and ancillary revenues are the majority of their profits, so I must throw cold water on the premise that no airlines ever get this right.
Many airlines have gone cashless but that's obviously to save them the operational expense of dealing with petty cash (and dealing with the petty theft that inevitably results). These both represent a cost and airlines who still take cash have clearly decided that the cost of cash handling exceeds the profits from passengers who could only pay using cash. It's important to take an appropriately holistic view (too often people focus narrowly). If you want to charge people at the gate for bags then you need to be set up to deal with cash at every station, so this may mean you might as well accept cash for onboard sales. Also, if you're an airline like Southwest (actively marketing to people who are less likely to have credit cards) then not being able to do business in cash is an obvious problem. United has gone the other direction, with a plan to entirely banning cash from both their stations and their aircraft, and only accept payment by credit card. This will undoubtedly make them popular in places like Central America, where I am currently sitting and where cash is still king.
You guys make this out to be a really huge problem. It isn't. This is Operations 101. There is a very well established science around understanding typical petty cash requirements, and there are even software programs that can help you estimate this. You can even run simulations in order to figure out what you should do. Every fast food restaurant assistant manager in the country can do these calculations. It's just not that hard. You will always end up with edge cases but I disagree with the premise that an airplane is somehow special. If you run out of change during a busy lunch rush at Wendy's it's not possible to recover from that in a period of time that is relevant. The same goes at 30,000 feet. So, you need to get it right to begin with.
Airlines have the further advantage that they know exactly how many people will be on a flight, they know these numbers in advance (so they can make more accurate projections), and they completely control the pricing of every item so can charge nice round amounts. All of this is actually a lot easier for them. School buses full of hungry teenagers who just played a 3 hour long football game don't suddenly appear on an airplane like they can at McDonald's. Incidentally, Ryanair had/has this figured out very well because buy-on-board and ancillary revenues are the majority of their profits, so I must throw cold water on the premise that no airlines ever get this right.
Many airlines have gone cashless but that's obviously to save them the operational expense of dealing with petty cash (and dealing with the petty theft that inevitably results). These both represent a cost and airlines who still take cash have clearly decided that the cost of cash handling exceeds the profits from passengers who could only pay using cash. It's important to take an appropriately holistic view (too often people focus narrowly). If you want to charge people at the gate for bags then you need to be set up to deal with cash at every station, so this may mean you might as well accept cash for onboard sales. Also, if you're an airline like Southwest (actively marketing to people who are less likely to have credit cards) then not being able to do business in cash is an obvious problem. United has gone the other direction, with a plan to entirely banning cash from both their stations and their aircraft, and only accept payment by credit card. This will undoubtedly make them popular in places like Central America, where I am currently sitting and where cash is still king.
Last edited by TProphet; Nov 27, 2013 at 7:46 pm
Nov 27, 2013, 7:43 pm
#43
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Internet
Programs: Alaska Mileage Plan
Posts: 714
I haven't lived in the US in 4 years and public transit is generally a disaster there. The US is not a valid baseline for much of anything anymore. This isn't a problem anywhere in Europe, Asia, Africa or Latin America.
Emphasis mine.
I'd be curious to know the last time you personally used public transit in a major US city where the bus driver actually dispensed change. The norm is for drivers to not even handle cash, period. You provide your payment into a fare collection machine, which generally do not dispense change. And even that has fallen by the wayside in lieu of reusable fare cards that need to be loaded at a kiosk, or credit/debit card with an embedded smart chip.
I'd be curious to know the last time you personally used public transit in a major US city where the bus driver actually dispensed change. The norm is for drivers to not even handle cash, period. You provide your payment into a fare collection machine, which generally do not dispense change. And even that has fallen by the wayside in lieu of reusable fare cards that need to be loaded at a kiosk, or credit/debit card with an embedded smart chip.
Nov 27, 2013, 8:05 pm
#44
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: High Point, NC
Programs: None
Posts: 9,171
Another "McDonald's can do it so why not airlines" fantasy...
Instead of claiming how easy it is, explain why most city buses in major cities of the world don't make change any longer. If it's so easy, why don't they have change funds?
Jim
Instead of claiming how easy it is, explain why most city buses in major cities of the world don't make change any longer. If it's so easy, why don't they have change funds?
Jim
Nov 27, 2013, 9:58 pm
#45
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Internet
Programs: Alaska Mileage Plan
Posts: 714
Which major city can buses not make change? It isn't a problem in Beijing, Shanghai, Tokyo, Taipei, London, Amsterdam, practically anywhere in Germany, need I go on? Besides which, we're not talking about small change for bus fares and the nightmare of managing that. We're talking about $1 and $5 (maybe $10) bills, and as many of those as you will need to make change over and above what you take in on any given flight.
It honestly isn't that hard of a problem. This is Operations 101 and Management Science 101.
- Calculate number of passengers on flight.
- Calculate percentage of buy on board and average purchase.
- Price buy on board items in "value bundles" of $5 and $10 to encourage even dollar amounts and also to increase sales (people will spend $1 extra on a bundle to get items they don't really want if they perceive greater value--Marketing 101).
- Based on passenger average, time of day of flight, and historical sales data run a sensitivity analysis. This will help you decide what to stock on the flight and will also help you decide how much change you will need (based on historical averages and a buffer for variance).
You can build a model where you will get things right with a very high degree of accuracy, more than 99% of the time. Obviously edge cases get expensive so you need to decide how many edge cases you want to accommodate. If you're McDonald's the cost of extra cash in the safe is limited and the downside of running out of change is very, very high. They keep a large quantity of cash on hand to deal with the "busload of hungry teenagers" scenario (memo to bank robbers, you'd be a lot better off robbing McDonald's just after the lunch rush). If you're an airline, the cost/benefit analysis is different for accommodating edge cases, so it's better to put more effort into avoiding them in the first place.
Either way, the primary call is whether you are going to deal with cash at the gate *at all* - if you do, then you're going to need a process for cash handling at each station and you just do cash drops (and change pick-ups) for each flight as part of the operations process to set up and tear down each flight.
The most complicated part of all of this isn't the cash handling, it's building the model for each flight (I think you'll have to calculate per flight to account for the variances present) and interpreting the results. However, this can be made part of the operations process, just like everything else, and you can build an automated model for interpreting the results (e.g. a computer just spits out the catering order based on the model you built). Anyone can run the calculations and follow the instructions.
You might need an MBA to build the model and roll out the changes, but you're not going to need an MBA to push the buttons each time and follow directions. These are not decisions so complicated that modern tools cannot be used to solve them. This isn't a hard problem, and all the push-back is what is wrong with America today. The US has become a country that is all about "that's impossible" rather than "can do," even something as simple as making change!
It honestly isn't that hard of a problem. This is Operations 101 and Management Science 101.
- Calculate number of passengers on flight.
- Calculate percentage of buy on board and average purchase.
- Price buy on board items in "value bundles" of $5 and $10 to encourage even dollar amounts and also to increase sales (people will spend $1 extra on a bundle to get items they don't really want if they perceive greater value--Marketing 101).
- Based on passenger average, time of day of flight, and historical sales data run a sensitivity analysis. This will help you decide what to stock on the flight and will also help you decide how much change you will need (based on historical averages and a buffer for variance).
You can build a model where you will get things right with a very high degree of accuracy, more than 99% of the time. Obviously edge cases get expensive so you need to decide how many edge cases you want to accommodate. If you're McDonald's the cost of extra cash in the safe is limited and the downside of running out of change is very, very high. They keep a large quantity of cash on hand to deal with the "busload of hungry teenagers" scenario (memo to bank robbers, you'd be a lot better off robbing McDonald's just after the lunch rush). If you're an airline, the cost/benefit analysis is different for accommodating edge cases, so it's better to put more effort into avoiding them in the first place.
Either way, the primary call is whether you are going to deal with cash at the gate *at all* - if you do, then you're going to need a process for cash handling at each station and you just do cash drops (and change pick-ups) for each flight as part of the operations process to set up and tear down each flight.
The most complicated part of all of this isn't the cash handling, it's building the model for each flight (I think you'll have to calculate per flight to account for the variances present) and interpreting the results. However, this can be made part of the operations process, just like everything else, and you can build an automated model for interpreting the results (e.g. a computer just spits out the catering order based on the model you built). Anyone can run the calculations and follow the instructions.
You might need an MBA to build the model and roll out the changes, but you're not going to need an MBA to push the buttons each time and follow directions. These are not decisions so complicated that modern tools cannot be used to solve them. This isn't a hard problem, and all the push-back is what is wrong with America today. The US has become a country that is all about "that's impossible" rather than "can do," even something as simple as making change!