Award Ticket Drama: Downgraded from OZ F to UA J (and MUCH more)!
Mar 11, 2013, 10:03 pm
#16
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: SUX
Programs: BA Silver; HHonors Gold; SPG Gold; Points but dirt with everyone else
Posts: 8,050
Mar 11, 2013, 10:16 pm
#17
Join Date: May 2008
Location: PHL (kinda, no airport is really close)
Programs: AA Exp, but not sure for how long. Enterprise Platinum woo-hoo!
Posts: 4,551
I wholly disagree with the attitudes in this thread.
Why does a pax have to babysit their reservation? Why do they owe the miles that would be charged for the itin as traveled, when they might well not have boked that? Say I book RDU-CLT-SEA in F, and they downgrade me on the CLT-SEA segment. Yes, if I chose to book that itin when CLT-SEA was only available in Y, I'd pay the F price (assuming award ticket), but who would do that? I would go so far as to argue that if they downgrade me on RDU-CLT, I should get the whole trip for the Y price.
I understand that airlines have IRROPS issues, and that every time a flight is delayed for an hour, we can't expect a suite at the Ritz-Carlton and a chauffered Rolls Royce to and from the hotel. And that if one channel of the IFE isn't working, we don't get a free ticket. But when the airline flat-out screws up and we suffer, they should make good. If they switch us to a flight that is delayed, and our luggage suffers a misconnect as a result, I fall back on the ditcum of negligence law "You take your victims as you find them." (Meaning, if you negligently hit an unemployed waiter and he's out of work for a month, it make cost you $1000 in lost wages, and if you hit a plastic surgeon it may cost you $100,000 in lost wages, ad there is no injustice in that randomness.)
I agree that we have to cut the carriers a break for weather, and even for other issues like maintenance that are just "normal." But cancelling a reservation with no reason - no, we don't have to accept that.
Why does a pax have to babysit their reservation? Why do they owe the miles that would be charged for the itin as traveled, when they might well not have boked that? Say I book RDU-CLT-SEA in F, and they downgrade me on the CLT-SEA segment. Yes, if I chose to book that itin when CLT-SEA was only available in Y, I'd pay the F price (assuming award ticket), but who would do that? I would go so far as to argue that if they downgrade me on RDU-CLT, I should get the whole trip for the Y price.
I understand that airlines have IRROPS issues, and that every time a flight is delayed for an hour, we can't expect a suite at the Ritz-Carlton and a chauffered Rolls Royce to and from the hotel. And that if one channel of the IFE isn't working, we don't get a free ticket. But when the airline flat-out screws up and we suffer, they should make good. If they switch us to a flight that is delayed, and our luggage suffers a misconnect as a result, I fall back on the ditcum of negligence law "You take your victims as you find them." (Meaning, if you negligently hit an unemployed waiter and he's out of work for a month, it make cost you $1000 in lost wages, and if you hit a plastic surgeon it may cost you $100,000 in lost wages, ad there is no injustice in that randomness.)
I agree that we have to cut the carriers a break for weather, and even for other issues like maintenance that are just "normal." But cancelling a reservation with no reason - no, we don't have to accept that.
Mar 11, 2013, 10:37 pm
#18
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: PHL
Programs: Former long-time US GP; now AA dirt
Posts: 4,904
ariyo15, I strongly suggest that you ignore the others here who are somehow blaming you even though it was US that made the mistakes. US screwed up, not you.
And the arguments made by burlax and jfinsocal that you "accepted the changes" by your choosing to fly are without merit because you likely had spent a ton of time booking -- and perhaps prepaying -- your hotel accommodations and other activities abroad. It is not reasonable for US to change an itinerary (especially when you have established that there were no actual needed changes!) and then have anyone here claim that you now have no recourse because you decided to take the trip anyway. What other choice did you have? To cancel the trip and forgo all the time/money put into your on-the-ground plans for the trip?
The facts are these: You booked a trip with US. US appeared to screw up the trip. You proactively called to make sure the trip wasn't screwed up. US thanked you for being proactive and assured you that the trip was not screwed up. US wound up screwing up the trip anyway. Period.
Specifics:
- The main segment on the return was supposed to be OZ F. Instead, you were given UA J because of an uncorrectable error by US. This is a major involuntary downgrade. Then, as a result of this change, you flew into a different city (SFO rather than LAX), where...
- The rest of the trip was also downgraded and you would up without your bags for three days.
You should ask US for half of your miles back. While this request will quickly be criticized as being too high by some posters here, you should make the point to US that under no circumstances would you have booked an F itinerary (using 140K miles) if all the return flights from ICN would have been in J/Y. And while this mistake in itself may not be worthy of the 70K miles requested (per each passenger), drive home the fact that your bags were also lost for three days as a direct result of this involuntary, uncorrectable and complete unnecessary change -- a change that was a result of an error by US.
US will likely counter-offer your request for 70K miles returned for each pasenger. But if you were ask for only, say, 40K miles back, do you think your counter-offer would be the same as if you were to request 70K back? It's a negotiation.
Good luck.
And the arguments made by burlax and jfinsocal that you "accepted the changes" by your choosing to fly are without merit because you likely had spent a ton of time booking -- and perhaps prepaying -- your hotel accommodations and other activities abroad. It is not reasonable for US to change an itinerary (especially when you have established that there were no actual needed changes!) and then have anyone here claim that you now have no recourse because you decided to take the trip anyway. What other choice did you have? To cancel the trip and forgo all the time/money put into your on-the-ground plans for the trip?
The facts are these: You booked a trip with US. US appeared to screw up the trip. You proactively called to make sure the trip wasn't screwed up. US thanked you for being proactive and assured you that the trip was not screwed up. US wound up screwing up the trip anyway. Period.
Specifics:
- The main segment on the return was supposed to be OZ F. Instead, you were given UA J because of an uncorrectable error by US. This is a major involuntary downgrade. Then, as a result of this change, you flew into a different city (SFO rather than LAX), where...
- The rest of the trip was also downgraded and you would up without your bags for three days.
You should ask US for half of your miles back. While this request will quickly be criticized as being too high by some posters here, you should make the point to US that under no circumstances would you have booked an F itinerary (using 140K miles) if all the return flights from ICN would have been in J/Y. And while this mistake in itself may not be worthy of the 70K miles requested (per each passenger), drive home the fact that your bags were also lost for three days as a direct result of this involuntary, uncorrectable and complete unnecessary change -- a change that was a result of an error by US.
US will likely counter-offer your request for 70K miles returned for each pasenger. But if you were ask for only, say, 40K miles back, do you think your counter-offer would be the same as if you were to request 70K back? It's a negotiation.
Good luck.
Mar 11, 2013, 11:55 pm
#19
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 4,843
A few years back I was downgraded NRT-IST (TK subbed a plane with no F for one of their leased 777s with F). The ticket was 120k US miles. I argued that I was owed the number of miles that US charged to upgrade from Y to Envoy from the US to Europe (only possible comparison at the time) - or around 30k miles. This was a high number I was throwing out there, and US offered 20k, which I accepted. I would have rather flown F and let US keep the 20k miles, but this was TK's fault and I was happy with the outcome.
Part of the reason US offered 20k was that they had also botched up the ticket. We had to argue at the TK ticket counter at NRT for an hour just to be allowed to fly at all since US (we were told) had not properly attached the ticket number to the reservation (when we made a change shortly before starting the trip).
Part of the reason US offered 20k was that they had also botched up the ticket. We had to argue at the TK ticket counter at NRT for an hour just to be allowed to fly at all since US (we were told) had not properly attached the ticket number to the reservation (when we made a change shortly before starting the trip).
Mar 12, 2013, 11:13 am
#20
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East Coast
Programs: AA CONCIERGE KEY & 1MM, HILTON DIAMOND
Posts: 11,970
For ease of typing, I won't include, dates, times or flight numbers, but will say all flights were in February '13...
Original:
YVR-SFO (UA F)
SFO-ICN-SIN (SQ F)
SIN-SYD (SQ F - destination)
MEL-SIN (SQ "R")
SIN-ICN (SQ regional J)
ICN-LAX (OZ F)
LAX-YVR (AC F/J)
Flown:
YVR-SFO (UA F)
SFO-ICN-SIN (SQ F)
SIN-SYD (SQ F - destination)
MEL-SIN (SQ "R")
SIN-ICN (SQ regional J)
ICN-SFO (UA J)
SFO-YVR (AC Y)
(SFO-PHX-YVR was scheduled after the change, but was changed again DOD to the direct SFO-YVR flight due to a US delay)
When did these problems first arise? Great question! It all started sometime in January, when I noticed something out of whack on our online reservations pages *note, we booked on separate PNRs. On mine everything looked fine except for the fact that my ICN-LAX flight simply wasn't there. Voila, gone! So now it seemed as though I had open-jawed ...SIN-ICN//LAX-YVR. Weird. Then, I checked my wife's and noticed she too was missing a segment; but for her it was the SIN-ICN flight! ...? Haha. Her flights now seemed to route ...MEL-SIN//ICN-LAX... This obviously worried me, but I figured I should first reach out to OZ and SQ as they were the operating carriers. After very short calls, they said they had no idea what was wrong with my online US reservation, but they see everything perfectly - my seats, confirmation/ticket numbers, flight times, special meal requests, etc...
Perfect, I thought to myself. I then carried on with my life thinking it was a simple US web-glitch. If only it were that simple. Fast forward two days...
I get a call around dinner time from a US CSR informing me of a schedule change on several flights and asking if I noticed. I informed her that I didn't know there was a schedule change, but that I had spoken to SQ and OZ earlier and they had said all of the flight times were still the same. Then, I mentioned the weird issue on the US site and she said it must have been because of the change. "Don't worry," I said. "I've spoken to SQ and OZ in the last few days and they said all of my seats, meals, etc... are still confirmed. Thanks for the call, but there's no need to change anything - I'm all squared away."
"Oh, that's great!" she said, as if a huge burden had been taken off her back. "That'll make my job much easier. Have a great night!" Wow! That was nice - they even called about the problem! Well, no worries, it's all taken care of now. Hmmm.... If only... Fast forward about one week.
As I always do about a week before a big trip, I returned to the US site to verify all of my flight details. This is when I got REALLY worried. All of a sudden, there was no open-jaw. Great! But wait, why am I flying into SFO? And why then onto PHX? What? United?? BUSINESS CLASS?!?! What the #$@& is that "I" doing next to that 10-hour flight? Everything should be "O" (except the on "R" for the SQ MEL-SIN flight)!! Let's play the how helpful are the US supervisors game!
Ring ring... Ring ring. "Welcome to USAirways, blah blah blah..." No time for the gate-keepers, I need a supervisor. "Can I ask what this is in reference to?" Yea, I'd rather not - I always have a tough time doing this politely, but I sure do try my darndest. Once the supervisor got on the line I explained everything above (in a bit more detail).
"I'm really sorry sir, but when there are schedule changes like this one there's little we can do. We just book you on the next available flight that is as close to what you booked as possible." I tried pleading, explaining there was really no schedule change and that I had spoken to the operating carriers (and even a US CSR) a few days earlier and was told everything was in tact! Why would US then go ahead and do this?
In a futile attempt, I asked, "Any way to get those OZ seats back?" Haha. Nice try. In any case, the best she could do was wave the change fee if anything came back before the date of original departure.
Of course, nothing did. I tried calling again from ICN, to no avail. Then I sent an email to CSR, GOLD and spoke to a supervisor here, but for what? What should I really be expecting?
The rest of the story is pretty simple:
-Flight to SFO doesn't have kosher meals
-Get to SFO, are told the US flight is delayed and 45 minutes won't be enough connection time in PHX
-Given BPs for AC's SFO-YVR direct (in coach). "Don't worry you're bags will be sent over."
-No bag in YVR (for three days)
So? How would YOU handle this one?
Original:
YVR-SFO (UA F)
SFO-ICN-SIN (SQ F)
SIN-SYD (SQ F - destination)
MEL-SIN (SQ "R")
SIN-ICN (SQ regional J)
ICN-LAX (OZ F)
LAX-YVR (AC F/J)
Flown:
YVR-SFO (UA F)
SFO-ICN-SIN (SQ F)
SIN-SYD (SQ F - destination)
MEL-SIN (SQ "R")
SIN-ICN (SQ regional J)
ICN-SFO (UA J)
SFO-YVR (AC Y)
(SFO-PHX-YVR was scheduled after the change, but was changed again DOD to the direct SFO-YVR flight due to a US delay)
When did these problems first arise? Great question! It all started sometime in January, when I noticed something out of whack on our online reservations pages *note, we booked on separate PNRs. On mine everything looked fine except for the fact that my ICN-LAX flight simply wasn't there. Voila, gone! So now it seemed as though I had open-jawed ...SIN-ICN//LAX-YVR. Weird. Then, I checked my wife's and noticed she too was missing a segment; but for her it was the SIN-ICN flight! ...? Haha. Her flights now seemed to route ...MEL-SIN//ICN-LAX... This obviously worried me, but I figured I should first reach out to OZ and SQ as they were the operating carriers. After very short calls, they said they had no idea what was wrong with my online US reservation, but they see everything perfectly - my seats, confirmation/ticket numbers, flight times, special meal requests, etc...
Perfect, I thought to myself. I then carried on with my life thinking it was a simple US web-glitch. If only it were that simple. Fast forward two days...
I get a call around dinner time from a US CSR informing me of a schedule change on several flights and asking if I noticed. I informed her that I didn't know there was a schedule change, but that I had spoken to SQ and OZ earlier and they had said all of the flight times were still the same. Then, I mentioned the weird issue on the US site and she said it must have been because of the change. "Don't worry," I said. "I've spoken to SQ and OZ in the last few days and they said all of my seats, meals, etc... are still confirmed. Thanks for the call, but there's no need to change anything - I'm all squared away."
"Oh, that's great!" she said, as if a huge burden had been taken off her back. "That'll make my job much easier. Have a great night!" Wow! That was nice - they even called about the problem! Well, no worries, it's all taken care of now. Hmmm.... If only... Fast forward about one week.
As I always do about a week before a big trip, I returned to the US site to verify all of my flight details. This is when I got REALLY worried. All of a sudden, there was no open-jaw. Great! But wait, why am I flying into SFO? And why then onto PHX? What? United?? BUSINESS CLASS?!?! What the #$@& is that "I" doing next to that 10-hour flight? Everything should be "O" (except the on "R" for the SQ MEL-SIN flight)!! Let's play the how helpful are the US supervisors game!
Ring ring... Ring ring. "Welcome to USAirways, blah blah blah..." No time for the gate-keepers, I need a supervisor. "Can I ask what this is in reference to?" Yea, I'd rather not - I always have a tough time doing this politely, but I sure do try my darndest. Once the supervisor got on the line I explained everything above (in a bit more detail).
"I'm really sorry sir, but when there are schedule changes like this one there's little we can do. We just book you on the next available flight that is as close to what you booked as possible." I tried pleading, explaining there was really no schedule change and that I had spoken to the operating carriers (and even a US CSR) a few days earlier and was told everything was in tact! Why would US then go ahead and do this?
In a futile attempt, I asked, "Any way to get those OZ seats back?" Haha. Nice try. In any case, the best she could do was wave the change fee if anything came back before the date of original departure.
Of course, nothing did. I tried calling again from ICN, to no avail. Then I sent an email to CSR, GOLD and spoke to a supervisor here, but for what? What should I really be expecting?
The rest of the story is pretty simple:
-Flight to SFO doesn't have kosher meals
-Get to SFO, are told the US flight is delayed and 45 minutes won't be enough connection time in PHX
-Given BPs for AC's SFO-YVR direct (in coach). "Don't worry you're bags will be sent over."
-No bag in YVR (for three days)
So? How would YOU handle this one?
OZ F is not that special unless you get the new 777 with the OZ F Suites, but that bird is only assigned to ORD.
Mar 12, 2013, 11:20 am
#21
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: PHL
Programs: Former long-time US GP; now AA dirt
Posts: 4,904
Well, in all fairness, you still got lucky. I mean, you didn't miss the best legs of the itinerary in SQ First and Suites. How did you find award inventory when SQ is not releasing R inventory to Star Alliance members?
OZ F is not that special unless you get the new 777 with the OZ F Suites, but that bird is only assigned to ORD.
OZ F is not that special unless you get the new 777 with the OZ F Suites, but that bird is only assigned to ORD.
OZ F may not be a suite, but it's still far better than UA J in every aspect.
Mar 12, 2013, 11:27 am
#22
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East Coast
Programs: AA CONCIERGE KEY & 1MM, HILTON DIAMOND
Posts: 11,970
Mar 12, 2013, 11:38 am
#23
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: BGM/ PHL
Programs: US (Silver, *A Silver), AA, Starbucks (Gold)
Posts: 2,242
I've flown both exUA C, exCO J, and p.s. F since the merger and have no complaints whatsoever. Most of my international travel takes me to Europe and while it's not LH (better catering but not crazy about their service), LX (phenomenal), or SQ (pipe dream), I think it's a decent redemption value and I've never had a problem finding C availability. If you get an LHR or FRA based cabin crew I also find the service to be several notches above those based at IAD, ORD, etc. Just my humble opinion...
Last edited by thomwithanh; Mar 12, 2013 at 11:47 am
Mar 12, 2013, 11:50 am
#24
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: PHL
Programs: Former long-time US GP; now AA dirt
Posts: 4,904
Mar 12, 2013, 12:19 pm
#25
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: PHL
Programs: HH Diamond, SPG Plat; no plans for chasing any more airline status.
Posts: 880
General Responses and Update
I'm not going to go through and name/quote each point I'm responding to, I'll just number them below. Then, I'll give a slight update.
1) I did call to confirm seats and meals with both OZ and SQ, this is why I said they could still see my seat and meal confirmation when I called them up. I did mention that in the detailed follow up, please retread if you're unsure.
2) Sure, you could argue I accepted these changes by flying, but I made it very clear to each agent and supervisor I spoke to before flying (and since returning) that I (a) didn't accept and (b) would have NEVER booked it as eventually flown
3) Was the 747 UAJ (downstairs) terrible? Of course not, but it was nothing compared to what OZF on any bird would have been!
4) I've never had a kosher meal not loaded, but this was obviously because the meal loaded into OZ's system wasn't transferred to UA when US made the change.
5) The tickets were booked during the July 7-8 free-for-all on SQ award space
6) This is 100% a first world problem, but that's really irrelevant. FT is a "first world website." We all bicker and complain about potty promos, 500 points here and there, etc... I'd say -as far as first world problems go - this is a pretty big one. It's not like they forgot to load the Dom and I had to suffer with Krug (oh, that would be terrible though! Haha)
7) The cash value of the ticketed and or flown reservation is 100% non relevant
8) Yes, I do run an award booking site, and yes I do confirm seats and meals with operating carriers as per my customers' request. If you need some help of your own, this itinerary should showcase (somewhat) my abilities.
Updates:
I sent an email and (not far from what tommyleo suggested) I requested the following...
1) 30k miles each (the difference between F and J on this award)
2) Their choice, between the rest of e miles back (110k more miles) or a $500 e-voucher for each of us.
Why did I do at? As tommyleo and redtop43 said above, I think at a minimum I deserved to get the award for the J price. This to me was a non-negotiable compensation. Additionally, I went on to explain the other 5+ problems I had (some more serious than others). Given the headache and hassle that went along with these problems (for a total of about five weeks), I thought something additional could be owed. I'm sure some of you will scrutinize my decision to request that, but again, this is a negotiation. Did I expect all of that? No. Am I hoping to get 70%? I sure hope so!
Results, Part 1:
US Gold offered me the 30k each and encouraged me to reach put to Customer Service for additional compensation. Done. So far, so good. I've re-requested the additional compensation. Let's see what happens.
Don't think there will be much more beyond is, but I can only hope they'll see the light!
1) I did call to confirm seats and meals with both OZ and SQ, this is why I said they could still see my seat and meal confirmation when I called them up. I did mention that in the detailed follow up, please retread if you're unsure.
2) Sure, you could argue I accepted these changes by flying, but I made it very clear to each agent and supervisor I spoke to before flying (and since returning) that I (a) didn't accept and (b) would have NEVER booked it as eventually flown
3) Was the 747 UAJ (downstairs) terrible? Of course not, but it was nothing compared to what OZF on any bird would have been!
4) I've never had a kosher meal not loaded, but this was obviously because the meal loaded into OZ's system wasn't transferred to UA when US made the change.
5) The tickets were booked during the July 7-8 free-for-all on SQ award space
6) This is 100% a first world problem, but that's really irrelevant. FT is a "first world website." We all bicker and complain about potty promos, 500 points here and there, etc... I'd say -as far as first world problems go - this is a pretty big one. It's not like they forgot to load the Dom and I had to suffer with Krug (oh, that would be terrible though! Haha)
7) The cash value of the ticketed and or flown reservation is 100% non relevant
8) Yes, I do run an award booking site, and yes I do confirm seats and meals with operating carriers as per my customers' request. If you need some help of your own, this itinerary should showcase (somewhat) my abilities.
Updates:
I sent an email and (not far from what tommyleo suggested) I requested the following...
1) 30k miles each (the difference between F and J on this award)
2) Their choice, between the rest of e miles back (110k more miles) or a $500 e-voucher for each of us.
Why did I do at? As tommyleo and redtop43 said above, I think at a minimum I deserved to get the award for the J price. This to me was a non-negotiable compensation. Additionally, I went on to explain the other 5+ problems I had (some more serious than others). Given the headache and hassle that went along with these problems (for a total of about five weeks), I thought something additional could be owed. I'm sure some of you will scrutinize my decision to request that, but again, this is a negotiation. Did I expect all of that? No. Am I hoping to get 70%? I sure hope so!
Results, Part 1:
US Gold offered me the 30k each and encouraged me to reach put to Customer Service for additional compensation. Done. So far, so good. I've re-requested the additional compensation. Let's see what happens.
Don't think there will be much more beyond is, but I can only hope they'll see the light!
Mar 12, 2013, 3:31 pm
#26
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: PHL
Programs: Former long-time US GP; now AA dirt
Posts: 4,904
I think the lesson here is that even if, by the terms of the CoC, an airline does not legally owe you anything, sometimes good customer service will prevail and compensation will still be offered.
Mar 12, 2013, 3:41 pm
#27
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: PHL
Programs: HH Diamond, SPG Plat; no plans for chasing any more airline status.
Posts: 880
^ Here's hoping! It's hard to stay mad at US though. At least for now, with such valuable miles - I just can't get enough! Plus, I'm moving back to PHL in April, so even more incentive to forgive/forget.
Mar 12, 2013, 4:10 pm
#28
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: SEA, but up and down the coast a lot
Programs: Oceanic Airlines Gold Elite
Posts: 20,396
That being said, good on you for getting results.
Mar 12, 2013, 4:51 pm
#29
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: PHL
Programs: HH Diamond, SPG Plat; no plans for chasing any more airline status.
Posts: 880
Of course, but that was not on my mind as I was just trying to get my flights back. The last thing on my mind was the meal. Those things just go to the back burner when this type of "crisis" comes up.
Mar 12, 2013, 6:00 pm
#30
Suspended
Join Date: May 2012
Programs: Choice Gold, Hilton Diamond, US CP
Posts: 334
Its great you got the difference between F and J back with the miles. However your other compensation request is excessive and I highly doubt you'll get anything further. You were provided with transportation (with hiccups but yes you still got to the destination), why would the compensate you with all the miles back or even $500 vouchers?