AZ Travels the World

Well, I would not have said that about you, as based upon your own description, you stay within your own seat. As I pointed out in my post, the substantially larger man sitting next to me consumed a third, if not half of my seat, in addition to his own.

I said "he must have been 400 pounds" not to be inflammatory, but because he was. I happen to know what 400 pounds looks like and this guy was in range.

I think the point you seem to be making, though, is on the money. This really has nothing to do with how much a person weighs -- it's simply about whether they fit in their allocated space, or they encroach into the space of someone else. If the latter, IMO, the individual, and the airline, have an obligation to prevent it from inconveniencing another passenger.

LowlyDLsilver

Agreed - and part of the problem is that the space has become too small.

I'm 6'2 and 240. Slightly heavy, yeah - but the gotcha is I'm 22" across the shoulders. The bottom half of me fits just fine, but you don't need to be a math wizard to figure out that a 22" wide object does not fit in a 17" container. I only book aisle seats - because then I can lean out and make space for myself and person sitting next to me. Only exception is for 10 A/F if it's a 319 - I'll make that work.

The reason threads like this get locked all the time is because they degrade into name-calling and the like. So - let's be objective here.

If your carry-on doesn't fit in the overhead - it gets checked.
If your bag is over 50 pounds, you get nailed with a charge.
Insert plenty of other arbitrary rules that get enforced EVERY DAY in the system.

The only question is, how big is too big. It really doesn't matter why someone is big, what matters is if it makes the seating arrangements too cozy for the person sitting next to them.

Make a standard, and then cue up the sleazy lawyer ads to sue for discrimination because the person in the next seat actually wanted the whole 17" they paid for.

When someone knows they don't fit, and elects not to take action to insure their own and their neighbor's comfort - the airline should take action.

lougord99

+1. Great post.

OverThereTooMuch

I'm actually surprised that they're allowed to repair the belts like this. If they are repairing them in place, then there's no way they can be as secure as they were when they came off the line.

And how the heck do these things break anyway?

I'm a fatty too, and I've also played the seat belt bingo game. It's annoying. I've never asked for the extender (though I did look into purchasing my own). In the cases where the belt doesn't fit, I just do without.

There are multiple issues that need to be addressed.

1) Education - Establish a very clear policy. I think the fairest approach is the one that was mentioned earlier from SWA - If you clearly spill out over the armrest, you need to buy a second ticket.

The airlines need to do research into the typical dimensions/weight of their customers. With enough research, you can figure out the typical statistics for someone that's going to spill over. For example, "In our research, we have observed that people that have a waist size of <blank> or greater, or that typically wear a size <blank> shirt generally do not fit into one seat".

They could also put kiosks in every airport with a seat, a camera, a display and a curtain for privacy. There should also be IR sensors at numerous points that highlight on screen where the person is spilling over. This isn't rocket science, and it should be pretty cheap.

2) Incentives - People need to be encouraged to do the right thing. I'd say that they need a carrot, but I think pizza is more appropriate here

I believe that the COS policies for all airlines today only provide RDM's for the second seat. Is that good enough, or does it need to be EQM's? In most of the stories I read where people are getting kicked off an airplane, they seem to include lines like "I've flown on this same type of plane 8 times this year and never had any problems", so I don't think it's just casual fliers.

Perhaps a free baggage allowance because of the extra seat.

3) Ease of use - Some airlines allow you to book this online. Others do not. For those that do, I'm not sure if you can book a ticket through a 3rd party site like Priceline or Travelocity. If there were some consistency across airlines on this, that would help everyone out. I shouldn't have to review a unique COS policy every time I want to fly with a different carrier.

4) Price - From the airline's POV, I think it makes sense to charge the same fare for both seats when the customer purchases their ticket. But from the customer's POV, they may be lighter than 2 typical passengers (so less fuel used), they have less baggage, it's fewer people to put on the plane, one less meal and fewer beverages consumed. I think an argument can be made for the second seat to be charged at the lowest fare that was ever booked on that specific flight.

5) Airlines need to face reality - People in the US are getting fatter every day. Seat sizes haven't changed in a long time (decades?). I know it's not realistic to change all of the seats. How about creative solutions, where maybe you guarantee that there won't be a passenger booked in the middle seat? Charge a reasonable premium above standard economy. Even better if they have more leg room as well (like the various Economy+ options that have been tried over the years). Then some of the embarassment is removed here. Don't make it a COS-only issue, make it available to anyone that wants it.


I've looked into getting a second seat several times. But I'm afraid that this will permanently put me on some sort of list saying that I won't fit into a single seat. For most of my flights, I would happily pay for 2 coach seats, but if I'm taking a short flight, I might not want to do that.

brobab

As others have posted, this issue is not always related to weight. Some of my most uncomfortable flights have been on RJ's, 2 side, seated next to someone like me: 6'1" 185lbs. 44 jacket, 35 waist. It is always unfortunate when someone, (whether "of size" or not) decides to stake their entitlement to each square inch of space they can get. I once worked with a lady who, when in FC, would take masking tape and tape a boundary down the FC shared armrest so that the, (in her opinion) predominantly male DYKWIA's would be put on notice that she expected what she was due. Made for many an interesting story post-flight.....

us2

For your safety, as well as that of others, please don't do this.

AZ Travels the World

I agree -- all because you don't want to ask for an extender?

When I read that comment, I was picturing all the people who have been injured on the two recent UA flights that suddenly hit severe turbulence and sent people flying through the cabin.

I originally thought it would mostly be passengers who had taken off their seat belts for whatever reason; I hadn't even considered people too large to wear one just going without.

Imagine making that choice, then being on one of these flights where you seriously injured yourself AND those you landed on. That would be awful.

mister880

If I pay for two tickets that has me paying taxes on two, landing and takeoff fess on two however on the airline side I still only get (1) bag, (1) carry on, and only earn miles on (1) seat. Seems like a double standard. Doesn't seem fair that the airlines get to treat me like 2 when it's good for them and 1 when it's good for me.

Delta will give you miles on 2nd seat but you have to write or call to get them and the 2nd seat doesn't count MQM!

OverThereTooMuch

I didn't think that was the case, and I recall seeing a COS policy that specifically mentioned it. But I just checked the policies for SWA, AA, AS and UA, and I couldn't find a mention of this.

The airlines don't control these particular taxes. Write your congressperson

FlyIgglesFly

How about this argument:

I'm tall, not wide. My knees are garbage after years of foolish athletic abuse. Extra room to extend my legs would make me more comfortable, as on a good deal of flight my knees are even with the seat in front of me. Should the airline be obligated to provide that to me at no extra cost? Should the person in front of me have their seat moved forward a few inches, at the cost of their legroom, with no compensation?

No.

I'm tall. I have bad knees. That's life. Nothing I can do about it. This inability to change their situation may very well be the case for other large customers, if we're assuming the argument of 'some can't help it'.

I deal with it. I book an aisle seat on long flights so I can lean and get my legs someone straight. If I can't do that, I hurt the whole flight. So be it. But these facts in NO way give me the right to infringe on someone else's space.

I'm sorry if it sounds cold, but I'm all for the airline enforcing strict rules on this and think the burden of proof should be on the COS to demonstrate that they are not infringing on the space of the person seated next to them. WN's rule of refunding the $ if there is an open seat kind of irks me, because why should that person now have an abundance of room while the rest of the plane is crammed? Even if this person takes up 1.5 seats, they now have a .5 seat free zone vs. the other 100+ pax who don't.

dcpatti

Doesn't this rule applie to *anyone* who wants to book an extra seat, not just a large passenger? They won't ask you when you book the extra seat to provide your butt size. I'd assume that a thin person would get the same refund that a large person would, if they'd paid for a second seat and the plane ended up not being full. So they're getting extra space because they put the money down in the first place and chose to risk actually having the airline keep the money, whereas the other 100+ pax didn't.

FlyIgglesFly

Interesting thing to wonder, if, say, someone booked a seat for a large instrument/etc, and the plane had open seats if they would refund. I'm not sure they would, but I see your point and do agree. I think it may be different with the open seating policy on WN than with assigned seating, since one could argue the remaining passengers 'chose' to move elsewhere.

mrredskin

GREAT argument!

kochleffel

I have a question about WN's policy on this: if you pay for a second seat, will WN guarantee that you get two adjacent seats? If you're in one of the later boarding groups, it's very possible that only middle seats would be available.

ScatterX

Can you imagine having a passenger "size-right" seating chair at the gate? People become enraged at using the one for carry-on bags. If passengers were forced to jam themselves into a sizing seat, the airlines would have to install escape slides and bullet-proof vests for the GAs.