flyinbob

True, which is why I didn't raise a stink or challenge the position of the purser. However, when a full-fare C passenger (not an upgrade) asks about an empty seat and said I would like to try the rear-facing, to have the FAs pull this kind of nonsense simply reinforced my decision to fly NZ next time.

cepheid

Even long-haul truckers are restricted to no more than 11 hours of consecutive driving in any 14-hour period, followed by no less than 10 hours of rest; I suspect bus drivers (especially for long-haul buses) have similar, or perhaps even more restrictive, rest requirements.

Furthermore, if a nurse, doctor, cop, bus driver, trucker, etc. makes a mistake, only one person (at most a few tens, if we're talking about buses) are at risk... if a pilot makes a mistake, hundreds are at risk.

notquiteaff

Is that why the wait at most ERs is so long... because the doctors and nurses are taking naps? Somehow that doesn't strike me as a common scenario.

A cop here in the Bay Area just pleaded guilty to vehicular manslaughter for plowing into a group of bikers last year. The excuse/reason given was two twelve hour shifts causing him to fall asleep behind the wheel. I don't think cops get naps during their shifts (and quite frankly, I think it's silly to put them on 12 hr shifts).

As for the blocking of the last row, I think it's fine to reserve them for FAs if there's plenty of space for passengers. But if, like codex57 told us, there was a family in front of him/her that was scattered all over the plane, I'd assume those folks asked for seats together and weren't accommodated, yet the last row was left empty (and unused). That doesn't make sense to me.

UAflyer06

Here is a quick overview of our rest regs....keep in mind that these are even fulfilled if we have a duty day of 14.5hours domestic!:

1. Ten (10) hours free from duty at the home domicile (twelve (12) hours for reserves).
2. Nine (9) hours free from duty at any point away from home where lodging is provided within approximately fifteen (15) minutes time (or time agreed upon by the MEC Hotel Chairperson) from the airport provided prompt transportation is available, or
3. Eleven (11) hours free from duty at any point away from home where lodging is provided more than approximately fifteen (15) minutes time from the airport.
4. The above off-duty periods may be reduced by one (1) hour under this sub-paragraph when such off-duty period extends to or beyond 0200 Standard Time on the designated day when the change is made from Standard Time to Daylight Time.


see....we are not really given that much time for sleep....these time requirements are from arrival to departure...NOT actual time at the hotel! So, you can imagine how short the actual time sleeping is! We really do appreciate when we get the last row!

aluminumdriver

Not true. I was a volunteer firefighter many moons ago, and you could take a nap if you were tired during a shift, not only after 8 hours. My wife is a nurse, and she can take a nap during her shift if it's slow during the overnight shift, not only after 8 hours.

jetsfan92588

Im not going to take a stance on this issue, but i can confirm that doctors and nurses do take naps in the ER. especially at night. its called in the on-call room. doctors do more than nurses, especially because the attendings usually just supervise and are woken up when there is a problem, etc... usually the residents (r4s and r3s are keeping everything running) with the help of interns and r2s. at night, the doctors and fellows work 12 hour shifts. so, the naps are pretty necessary especially due to what they are doing.

EsquireFlyer

That's not what I said, and you know it. It's your own silly straw man.

Thank you! That's also what I've heard from my friends who are med students or residents.

On Grey's Anatomy, the attending tells the residents not to wake her up unless the patient is literally dying. I guessed that that bit was overdramatized for TV, but that the basic system of naps during long shifts, and being woken up as necessary, was realistic.

And thank you also, aluminumdriver! :-:
Btw, would you happen to know about helicopter flight training?

Grace B

How many are at risk if an FA makes a mistake (not that it could ever happen)?

ethansma24

It could be a lot of people if you have an emergency evacuation on a full 747.

I recently had a trip with a layover in BUF. Originally it was scheduled for 12 hrs, but due to delays we were down to our minimum of 9h45m (and like UAflyer06 said, that is block to block, not at the hotel). Fortunately, the pilots that flew us in were also flying us out the next morning, and they need 9 hrs behind the door. He strictly told us to leave at the same time as them the next morning, he doesn't want to fly with a fatigued crew. Why? Because if there were to be an emergency evac, the first thing they look at is fatigue....with both the cockpit crew and the F/As. Our pickup from the hotel was only 20 min later than originally scheduled, but sometimes that 20 min can make a huge difference!

Rpcfly

Correct me if I'm wrong but ONLY pilots are covered under the flight/duty time regulations stipulated by the FAA. The regulations you post are only negotiated duty periods between the union and the company aren't they?

In reference to the OP I've been told, on a full fare C ticket, that seats are reserved before when I asked to move, even though the crew rest seats were still open and available.....Sad but it seems it's the norm rather than the exception...

JSlo

On transpacs, I have seen the whole range. Some FA's sleep, some don't. IMHO [flame suit on] I see the older FA's sleeping, I can't recall ever seeing a youngish FA sleeping.

I think FA's do deserve a chance to rest on the job in certain situations. It is not practical to have their rest seats scattered all over the cabin.

What really happens that annoys and aggravates is an attitude of entitlement from both sides of the argument at times. The pushy GS or 1K throwing status around is resisted or not placated by the FA's. The FA's who have bad attitudes and no longer treat the customer well come across like the old Aeroflot FA's in the early 80's, before the former USSR collapsed. Brutal. It's when these two worlds collide that everyone get's their drawers in a bunch. On a poorly served flight in C or F when very expensive seats have been paid for, and service is poor, and FA's are scrapbooking or holding jewelry clubs or sleeping, that's when the elites get all wound up and I think deservedly so.

I have never had an ounce of aggravation on a transpac that has great FA's, great service, friendly staff- I've never once begrudged a nap rotation.

Sorry slightly OT, but isn't there some kind of small crew bunk bed areas or something on 777 and/or 747? A friend and former UA employee at WHQ told me that there are small bunk sleeping areas designed into the longhaul planes- obviously not accesible to passengers. He referred to them as "heartbreak hotel" or something, said generally the crew doesn't like to use them and wants C seats to rest in? I've never confirmed or asked about it. Any FA's confirm the existence of these submarine style sleeping bunks tucked away somewhere?

EsquireFlyer

Yes, there are crew rest bunks on some of the long-haul planes (such as the 777XP, which has bunks below decks (and the entrance is where the "missing" lavatory is in the three-lavatory block in the middle of Y: http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Uni..._777-200_1.php ). Whereas the 777XC/XI have no bunks in that area, which is why the Y lav block has the "full" 4 lavs, but instead seats 18-20 HJ are reserved as dedicated crew rests (http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Uni..._777-200_2.php).

On a 747, the FA rest is in the tail, with a ladder leading up to it in the back of Y.

I have seen plenty of young FAs go to take naps during their scheduled rest breaks on transpacs...so my guess is that if you've never seen a young FA going to sleep on break, it's probably because they did it in the rest areas which are out of passenger sight (either below decks, or in the dedicated crew seats which are surrounded by curtains). Especially if you're flying C/F, since most of the crew rests are in Y and not easily seen from C/F.

However, I think that because even the planes with no bunks already have dedicated crew rest seats reserved (with the number and location of seats agreed upon by UA and its unions), I don't think it's appropriate for FAs to reserve their own "extra" or "better" crew rests at passengers' expense. If the C or F cabin is very empty, I suppose it's harmless--but I don't think it's okay for the crew to "reserve" extra seats that the passengers actually wanted (e.g. by telling pax they are not allowed to move into the empty seats, or blocking out a whole row of seats with random equipment or unauthorized "Crew Rest" signs). In addition, I think it creates a poor public image if cabin crew are observed "sleeping on the job" by pax who don't understand how the rest breaks work (which I think is the majority of pax)--this problem is alleviated by the curtains and doors that enclose the dedicated crew rests, but the "bonus" crew rests that FAs reserved for themselves are open and obvious.

I find that the employees often get very angry if UA does anything which ALPA or AFA considers to be a deviation from the all-important contract UA and the unions have already agreed to...and if so, the employees also should not be doing things like claiming "extra" crew rests at passenger expense, which are in addition to the specific crew rest seats that UA and the unions have already agreed to.

On a recent flight I took, the C cabin FAs used unauthorized "Crew Rest" signs to attempt to reserve themselves a row of bonus crew rests in C, displacing the passengers who were assigned there. The pax stood around confused when they boarded and found their seats marked with "Crew Rest" signs. After the pax stood there for a while, and looked around for other seats (but found none, since the C cabin was full), the FA who hung the crew rest signs walked over and removed them, muttering some complaints--under her breath but loud enough for the pax in that row to hear. I saw everything because I was seated in the same row, at the window (and it was the middle row of seats that had been "reserved" as bonus crew rests)...when I wrote about the event on FT, a UA personnel supervisor PMed me and asked for the flight information so that the incident could be properly documented and handled.

secretsea18

While I'm not a FA, I have seen and been in the crew rest for FA on the 747, while responding to a medical problem with a FA on a NW TPAC. The crew rest is up a ladder ~5-6 steps up in the rear of the Y cabin behind a locked door. At the top is an area with approx 8 bunk beds (lowest is on the floor as just a mattress, with blankets and pillows and disposible sheeting material. The space is too small to stand in, but does provide rather spacious full length mattresses and are complete with seat belts!

notquiteaff

Just to be clear, the interns and residents *are* doctors. What you describe is correct (I am married to one), but those interns and residents aren't exactly getting a lot of sleep during their ER shifts (maybe it's different in rural areas).

As a patient, I would much prefer a doctor who doesn't have to survive on 30 minute naps during a 12 hr shift. As a passenger, I'd much prefer a crew that doesn't commute on a Fedex plane to get to their workplace.

So getting back to the last row of seats -- is that the official crew rest area, or will UA sell those seats if they have a chance? If the latter, I think it's obviously not a necessity to keep them blocked for safety/rest reasons if that means having families scattered across the plane that would like to sit together.

JSlo

+1 for the entire post, apologies for condensing to areas of response:

I retract my [flame suit] quote. I think you are right and I was perhaps using selective memory on the age of FA nap observations.

I agree totally that it is a very poor representation in general for these type of seat shananigan's to take place at all, ever. This is where the breakdown occurs-when the airline employees cross a line resulting in the paying customers inconvenience.

All this Labor union stuff, at what point is there a pax union that FA's will live by? "all C or F cabin beverages will be full or refilled without fail upon immediate observation of beverage depletion" "all paying pax will be greeted with a customer service oriented attitude, and will not ever be treated curtly or rudely no matter how tired you are"

Just kind of kidding around FA's, don't flame me. But in every joke I suppose there is truth- the ALPA and FA union I suppose were bolstered/created/empowered because airline employees felt they weren't getting a fair shake and to protect their work environment...I suppose paying passengers could make the same argument in some cases...