*When* is a misconnect a misconnect?
Jun 26, 2001 | 9:31 pm
#16
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Montebello, CA, USA
Posts: 2,556
Yes, I now remember onetravel's site, and I think the text that fits the situation I described is:
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Rule: Schedule Irregularity – Definition
Misconnection occurs at a connection point when a passenger … is unable to use … confirmed space because … carrier was unable to deliver him/her to … connecting point in time to connect with … flight
Schedule Irregularity means any of the following irregularities occurring on the date of departure: (a) Delay in scheduled departure or arrival of a United Airlines flight resulting in misconnection,
and
Rule: Schedule Irregularity - Alternate Transportation or Refund
When a passenger will be delayed because of a schedule irregularity … exceeding 2 hours … (b) If United Airlines is unable to provide onward transportation acceptable to the passenger, United Airlines, will with concurrence of the passenger, will arrange for the transportation on another carrier or combination of carriers with whom United Airlines has agreement
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Again, this problem originated because United chooses to use a single aircraft for multiple flights scheduled close together which leaves little room for problems which may occur. I don't deny that this fact happens and is a way of life, but there are rules setup to assist passengers when these problems occur.
Unfortunately, I've had other agent misconnect me at the origin when it was obvious it was going to happen, rather than letting me wait to get stuck at the hub.
BillJ
[This message has been edited by wcj1 (edited 06-26-2001).]
-----
Rule: Schedule Irregularity – Definition
Misconnection occurs at a connection point when a passenger … is unable to use … confirmed space because … carrier was unable to deliver him/her to … connecting point in time to connect with … flight
Schedule Irregularity means any of the following irregularities occurring on the date of departure: (a) Delay in scheduled departure or arrival of a United Airlines flight resulting in misconnection,
and
Rule: Schedule Irregularity - Alternate Transportation or Refund
When a passenger will be delayed because of a schedule irregularity … exceeding 2 hours … (b) If United Airlines is unable to provide onward transportation acceptable to the passenger, United Airlines, will with concurrence of the passenger, will arrange for the transportation on another carrier or combination of carriers with whom United Airlines has agreement
-----
Again, this problem originated because United chooses to use a single aircraft for multiple flights scheduled close together which leaves little room for problems which may occur. I don't deny that this fact happens and is a way of life, but there are rules setup to assist passengers when these problems occur.
Unfortunately, I've had other agent misconnect me at the origin when it was obvious it was going to happen, rather than letting me wait to get stuck at the hub.
BillJ
[This message has been edited by wcj1 (edited 06-26-2001).]
Jun 27, 2001 | 6:50 am
#17
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: NYC
Programs: AA 2MM, Bonvoy LTT, Hilton Gold
Posts: 15,009
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by SuzanneSLO:
Here are the rules on United from www.OneTravel.com:
Rule: Force Majeure Event – Definition
“Force Majeure Event” means: (1) Any condition beyond United Airlines’ control (including, but without limitation, meteorological conditions, acts of God, riots, civil commotion, embargoes, wars, hostilities, disturbances, or unsettled international conditions), actual, threatened or reported or because of any delay, demand circumstances or requirement due, directly or indirectly, to such conditions or (2) Any strike work stoppage, slowdown, lockout or any other labor related dispute involving or affecting United Airlines’ service or (3) Any government regulation demand or requirement, or (4) Any shortage of labor, fuel or facilities of United Airlines or others, or (5) Any fact not reasonably foreseen, anticipated, or predicted.
DGR-1 / Rule 240 I / 1st revised page UA-16A / March 29, 2000
Rule: Force Majeure Event - Alternate Transportation / Refund / Amenities
United Airlines may, in the event of a Force Majeure Event, without notice, cancel, terminate, divert, postpone, or delay any flight or the right of carriage or reservation of traffic accommodations and determine if any departure or landing should be made, without any liability except to refund … any unused portion of the ticket.
DGR-1 / Rule 240 I / 1st revised page UA-16A / March 29, 2000
In circumstances where customers may be delayed overnight, we will clarify policies and procedures for accommodating them. We will provide customers who request it a copy of this policy. In the event of delays, diversions, or cancellations, our representatives are empowered to offer disserviced customers hand-written certificates good for amenities onboard our flights or for future travel. We will develop information cards that include detailed policies and procedures for handling special-needs or disabled customers.
“Our United Commitment” issued September 15, 1999 / Effective December 15, 1999
From the above, I would say that if there is a "shortage" of "facilities", such as no airplane for your flight, this is a force majeure event that entitles you only to get a refund of the unused portion of your ticket. Which is why we all dread the fact that bad weather in Chicago (or anywhere else, for that matter), can delay flights nationwide and leave travelers with few options but to ask nicely for help in getting to our destination.
-- SuzanneSLO </font>
Here are the rules on United from www.OneTravel.com:
Rule: Force Majeure Event – Definition
“Force Majeure Event” means: (1) Any condition beyond United Airlines’ control (including, but without limitation, meteorological conditions, acts of God, riots, civil commotion, embargoes, wars, hostilities, disturbances, or unsettled international conditions), actual, threatened or reported or because of any delay, demand circumstances or requirement due, directly or indirectly, to such conditions or (2) Any strike work stoppage, slowdown, lockout or any other labor related dispute involving or affecting United Airlines’ service or (3) Any government regulation demand or requirement, or (4) Any shortage of labor, fuel or facilities of United Airlines or others, or (5) Any fact not reasonably foreseen, anticipated, or predicted.
DGR-1 / Rule 240 I / 1st revised page UA-16A / March 29, 2000
Rule: Force Majeure Event - Alternate Transportation / Refund / Amenities
United Airlines may, in the event of a Force Majeure Event, without notice, cancel, terminate, divert, postpone, or delay any flight or the right of carriage or reservation of traffic accommodations and determine if any departure or landing should be made, without any liability except to refund … any unused portion of the ticket.
DGR-1 / Rule 240 I / 1st revised page UA-16A / March 29, 2000
In circumstances where customers may be delayed overnight, we will clarify policies and procedures for accommodating them. We will provide customers who request it a copy of this policy. In the event of delays, diversions, or cancellations, our representatives are empowered to offer disserviced customers hand-written certificates good for amenities onboard our flights or for future travel. We will develop information cards that include detailed policies and procedures for handling special-needs or disabled customers.
“Our United Commitment” issued September 15, 1999 / Effective December 15, 1999
From the above, I would say that if there is a "shortage" of "facilities", such as no airplane for your flight, this is a force majeure event that entitles you only to get a refund of the unused portion of your ticket. Which is why we all dread the fact that bad weather in Chicago (or anywhere else, for that matter), can delay flights nationwide and leave travelers with few options but to ask nicely for help in getting to our destination.
-- SuzanneSLO </font>
But what you are saying is that it is under the "shortage" of "facilities" definition because they don't have a spare part.
Again, I think the test is whether other carriers are operating or not (unless there is a strike, etc).
[This message has been edited by seawolf (edited 06-27-2001).]
Jun 27, 2001 | 7:32 am
#18
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Maryland
Programs: UA MM Gold, Marriott LT Titanium
Posts: 23,764
Seawolf:
The flaw in your argument is that UA (or any other airline)does not classify all delays as weather-related.
And what does spare aircraft have to do with anything? Wait, don't answer that because you discard that defense in a subsequent post. All of this leads me to believe that you are just being argumentative for argument's sake. We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.
The flaw in your argument is that UA (or any other airline)does not classify all delays as weather-related.
And what does spare aircraft have to do with anything? Wait, don't answer that because you discard that defense in a subsequent post. All of this leads me to believe that you are just being argumentative for argument's sake. We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.
Jun 27, 2001 | 10:16 am
#19
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: NYC
Programs: AA 2MM, Bonvoy LTT, Hilton Gold
Posts: 15,009
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by JeffS:
Seawolf:
The flaw in your argument is that UA (or any other airline)does not classify all delays as weather-related.
And what does spare aircraft have to do with anything? Wait, don't answer that because you discard that defense in a subsequent post. All of this leads me to believe that you are just being argumentative for argument's sake. We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.</font>
Seawolf:
The flaw in your argument is that UA (or any other airline)does not classify all delays as weather-related.
And what does spare aircraft have to do with anything? Wait, don't answer that because you discard that defense in a subsequent post. All of this leads me to believe that you are just being argumentative for argument's sake. We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.</font>
I don't think you have not considered my line of argument at all before provding this response. My point is this: allowing the late arrival of equipment to be classified as weather related can lead to abuse. The LHR-SFO-NRT-SIN is an extreme scenario but it does fall within "late arrival = weather related delay." It is as simple as that.
Now how does your perception of the flaw in my logic tie to this or are you referring to something else? Please elaborate.
Futhermore, by allowing late arrival of eqiupment to be classifed as weather, what's stopping an airline from doing what robinhood pointed out? What about what I pointed out on the post posted ast 06-26-2001 06:41 PM?
Next, you have to point out exactly how I discarded the "spare part" defense. Please elaborate.
My point on the spares is that UA's inability to have a spare does not qualify it as a Force Majeure Event. I disagree with SuzanneSLO's definition of "facilities" because if a "shortage of facilities" is referring to equipment, then every single mechancial can then be classifed as a Force Majeure Event and UA would really not have to do anything except to provide refunds for all types of delays.
Then why is there even a Rule 240 if the "facilities" is referring to aircraft? If facilities is referring to aircraft, Rule 240 might have just been written that a Force Majeure Event is any type of delay.
I believe what facilities is referring to is airport and takeoff/landing slots. Shortage of facilities explains how ATC delays are Force Majeure Events. ATC delays are the temporary shortage of takeoff/landing slots.
[This message has been edited by seawolf (edited 06-27-2001).]