snic

Don't know the answer to you first question (I assume it's "no"), but several posts here have mentioned that the FFCC list is not just for award ticket holders, but for people who buy C or F tickets even if a C or F seat is not available on one of their flight legs. It makes total sense that they would have first crack at any C/F seats that become available. Supposedly the same logic applies to award tickets, which are "paid" for with miles. But as several posts in this and other threads indicate, some gate agents seem to disregard this and clear by status only (or maybe they just ignore the FFCC list entirely; who knows).

John Thacker

But in the situation I described there's no difference between award seats and upgraders.

In the case of a, say, IAD-NRT-BKK ticket, if the IAD-NRT segment clears but the NRT-BKK segment is waitlisted, the FULL COST of the upgrade to business class for all segments has already been taken out. The full cost of upgrading all segments to NC has already been paid REGARDLESS of whether the NRT-BKK segment clears.

It seems to me to be quite like the award situation, where one segment has to clear in order to book XC, but the others can be waitlisted. (AIUI.)

It wouldn't surprise me if UA doesn't work this way, but the reasoning given seems insufficient.

John Thacker

It is relevant to me, because in the case where you have had your upgrade confirmed on one segment, you've already used your upgrade instrument; you don't pay it only if it clears because it's already cleared on one segment. Furthermore, in many cases you've already sufficiently "paid" for all segments to upgrade. (With miles if the most expensive segment clears, or with CRUs or systemwide upgrades.)

Consider a IAD-SEA-NRT-BKK ticket. Suppose that you confirm into NC on SEA-NRT with a SWU or with 15k or 30k miles as appropriate, but IAD-SEA and NRT-BKK are waitlisted. At this point, you've already completely paid for the upgrades for IAD-SEA and NRT-BKK-- that upgrade instrument isn't coming back, and if you clear off the waitlist for IAD-SEA or NRT-BKK, you don't owe anything else.

I think it would be more than a little annoying for United to, rather than upgrade the NRT-BKK and IAD-SEA segments off the waitlist "for free" (since already paid for), take someone else's upgrade instrument, who hasn't used it yet, for just the NRT-BKK or IAD-SEA segments because they're higher on the waitlist (and probably have a different itinerary.) I could see why UA might want to do it, of course, as they could get SWUs or miles from more people.

If you've already used your upgrade and you've already completely "paid" for C, it seems to me like you ought to be in the same boat as the award seat holder.

fadeforward

This logic reflects a common sense of entitlement when it comes to upgrades. I see an upgrade is a perk, space available. That UA upgrades extend to all segments is another perk, space available. In contrast, when someone books an XC ticket, they should get what they pay for. I feel like this has been spelled out clearly in this thread at least 10 times, most recently by gbsfo, and I'm still a bit puzzled why people are confused by it. One of the FT UA mantras should be, if you want to ensure C/F, buy C/F.

If you don't want to waste an upgrade in the manner you describe, apply it only to the longest segment, and extend it to other segments if that segment clears, as many here do.

Let's not confuse these priorities with cost, either. There are numerous examples of full-fare economy tickets exceeding the cost of discount premium tickets. There are many ways to frame fairness. UA, like all businesses, tries to set rules that maximize current and future profit while also being transparent and easy to implement. I can see where you're coming from, but I think UA's current policy is perfectly straightforward and reasonable, even as much as I'd hate being jumped over in the queue by an XC waitlister.

gbsfo

This is where you are mistaken and your logic is flawed. You have used your upgrade already, yes, you will not get a refund, yes, you have "paid" for C?, NOT even close my friend. You paid for Y. Period. You then applied an upgrade instrument to upgrade your class of service.

With the saver C award, UA is deeming that you have paid for C. You have a C class ticket. What I was saying is the fact that you paid for this C class ticket with miles is irrelevant. You could have paid cash, there is no difference. If someone had paid full C, but been confirmed in Y as there was no C available at the time, do you think a Y->NC upgrader should get the seat before them if one is available at the gate?!

At the end of the day, there are many rules of the MP program. People will tend to agree with those that favor their own travel habits and think that others are drastically unfair. Something I have noticed with UA/MP though is that people have come to expect upgrades and so never buy C. This cascades up and people only buy D so they can fly F, it is almost assumed no one would pay for F if D were available. Unfortunately UA created the monster and has to live with it, but it is likely part of the reason they are hurting so bad.

I'm not having a go at folks here, I'm a Y->NC upgrader myself, and occasional C buyer (although my only one on UA was one cheap trip to NZ and that was C->NF both ways! ). This just happens to be one of the rules that favors the award traveler vs upgrader, and it seems very logical to me.

anc-ord772

There is still no waitlisting allowed for UA segments on *A awards. I will likely try FFCC when we arrive, but I don't want to push hard if it is actually not allowed.

Too bad we don't feel like we can ask United directly.

John Thacker

I think I wasn't clear enough what I meant.

I certainly don't think that a Y->NC upgrader should get the seat before them if the upgrader is only on the waitlist for all segments, and I agree that in general that the person who has paid full C should get the seat first. Now as I understand it, you can only pay full C but sit in Y if you're actually confirmed for C on at least one segment but another segment of the trip only has Y. So everyone who has paid full C and confirmed in Y is similar to people upgraders who have already had one segment confirmed but not all. So I'm not really talking about the priority of upgraders versus award seats. (I would feel that, if it actually worked this way, someone who takes an XY because no segment of XC can be confirmed, but who asks to be put on a waitlist for XC should be after people who have "already paid" for C, since they would presumably only have the miles removed for XC if space became available.)

However, I do think that upgraders who have had their instrument taken should get priority on the waitlist over upgraders who have not.

In the case of the IAD-SEA-NRT-BKK itinerary I listed earlier, consider someone who confirms an upgrade with a SWU or miles on the SEA-NRT leg, but is placed on the waitlist for IAD-SEA. Suppose that there is a 1K already on the priority A waitlist for IAD-SEA already who is trying to use a CR-1 (possibly as part of a longer itinerary)-- but that CR-1 hasn't been deducted yet. I think it ends up being a little odd when UA clears the 1K's upgrade on IAD-SEA and takes the CR-1 rather than giving it to the person who has already used their miles or SWU.

If one segment of your upgrade has already cleared, then you "have a C class ticket," you're confirmed, and you've already fully paid for it. The fact that your C class ticket has the special booking class of NC is just as relevant (or not) as the fact that a saver C award has the special booking class of XC. The fact that you paid in cash plus miles at the time of booking is as relevant (or not) that the XC redeemer paid in miles only.

I don't fully understand the claims of "I see an upgrade is a perk, space available. That UA upgrades extend to all segments is another perk, space available." True, but surely the availability of XC seat buckets is a perk, space available. It wouldn't upset or shock me if those who paid cash for C or standard awards but were put in Y on some segments had priority over those who had an XC award, but as I understand it, UA doesn't do that. It confuses me.

In any case, it generally seems to me that biz saver awards are underpriced in miles. (And one reason, no doubt, why there's generally such a waitlist.) 90,000 miles for a roundtrip to South Asia versus H/M + 60,000 miles (for roundtrip) or Y/B fare plus 30,000 miles? Even counting the RDMs that the upgrader earns which the award redeemer does not, it seems fairly clear to me that the upgrader is more profitable to UA.

gbsfo

John, you are confused on many aspects. You can only FFCC waitlist if you have one segment in XC/XF. You have the miles for a "paid" business class ticket deducted. They have a C class ticket. These people are most certainly NOT the same as Y class ticket holders who have requested an upgrade. They have a Y class ticket. Period. End of. If you changed your date of departure or return, what cabin would you be placed in? Yes, Y. Then you re-request your upgrade. If you go standby what cabin would you have to clear into first? Yes, Y.

Upgrades are likely much better for United. They get cash and you burn proportionally more miles. That is likely why it is MUCH easier to find NC space that XC space internationally.

WRT: "So everyone who has paid full C and confirmed in Y is similar to people upgraders who have already had one segment confirmed but not all"

This is so very wrong is oh so many ways, I just can't even bring myself to tackle it.

fadeforward

I think I'm at the point where all I can say is, John, with all due respect, this is the way it is, and I'm sorry it confuses you. With respect to your other arguments, I refer to you all the other posts in this thread that have already addressed them.

as219

Just out of curiosity, let's say a 2P uses 30k RDM to upgrade Y->NC LGA-ORD-HKG. LGA-ORD clears immediately, ORD-HKG is waitlisted, the miles deducted. Now comes the 1K flying the same ORD-HKG. She applies the SWU and is waitlisted. If I understand you correctly, you're saying the 2P should be upgraded over the 1K because the miles were deducted whereas the SWU was not. Do you see, though, that the net effect of this would be to throw the benefits of status out the window: 1Ps and lower only have miles with which to upgrade international flights; by your logic, these would always trump 1Ks who have confirmable instruments.

So yes, UA's scheme may be "a little odd," but doing what you suggest would completely devalue the benefits of status. One might say that's "a little odd" too.

Stanford_1K

For what it's worth, in this situation (albeit on domestic upgrades using CR1s), I believe I have on occasion been FFCC'd for the second segment. One time that comes to mind is DCA-ORD-SFO where boths segments had cleared originally with a CR1, but DCA-ORD was late and I misconnected. The gate agent for the next ORD-SFO flight FFCC'd me. Now probably she was just being nice, but maybe....

1KChinito

Yes, she was very nice to you. You should have been on UGDG list after you have cleared into your new flight. That is why misconnect can really mess up your upgrade. I try to have more than enough time for connection to avoid this potential disappointment, or simply take the non-stop.

1KChinito

The latest e-ticket receipt no longer shows the total number of award miles redeemed. In case you should be on the FFCC list, make sure to ask the agent to display United Field. Which shows:

1. Number of miles redeemed
2. Source of MP account
3. Certificate # for the award

StingWest

But I'm not sure that upgrading with United.com allows this. I tried to do just this when wait-listing for an RDU-IAD-SFO trip a couple of weeks ago. The CR-1 was only offered as a choice for upgrading the entire journey, but not for just the IAD-SFO leg. It would have been more desirable to upgrade RDU-IAD with a 500 mile and the rest with the CR-1, since the longer leg is currently wait listed, and the tiny leg has cleared. We'll see what happens, as the flights are in 2 weeks....

1KChinito

You can always accomplish what you want by calling reservation and/or web support if it cannot be done online.