channa

Do they still? I would have agreed with this last year, but I think recent CO catering changes have given UA the slight edge here.

CO has been removing salt & pepper shakers, UA still offers linens (CO only on transcon), and UA offers a proper dinner entree on 800-mile dinner flights (CO it's just a sandwich or salad). The place where CO outshines UA domestically is transcon. Other than that, it's UA over CO for domestic F food.


EUA even worked in the early 2000's. But lately, it's become difficult, if not impossible, to get an upgrade on many CO routes. Part of this is due to the Y-Up policy (any Y fare gets an instant Y-Up to CO's top first class bucket). Part of it is a lower F seat ratio on popular routes, part of it is more paid F sales due to low F fares, and another part is the EUA system (everyone gets an upgrade, whether they ask for it or not).


Ahh, did we find the only award in the CO chart where CO is less expensive than UA?

Business to Europe: CO 100K, UA 80K
Business to Asia: CO 120K, UA 90K
Business to South America: CO 90K, UA 80K

those are the common ones.

What about F to Australia: CO 285K, UA 140K

paytonc

Furthermore, NW/New Delta's service to Asia primarily funnels through MSP and DTW, which are not exactly the natural gateways for Asia-North America traffic. (I'm quite fond of Mpls, but... it's quite literally the City That White Bread Built.) The NRT transit adds substantial time and cost -- but is necessary since SkyTeam doesn't have a Japanese partner for local feed. New Delta will transfer some of the NRT flights to JFK and ATL, but UA and AC already have a vastly superior set of transpac gateways: SFO, LAX, YVR, and YYZ.

ryan182

Now that's a new level of ridiculous, 285K!! Though I'd assume thats QF and I suppose QF F >> UA F but then again SQ F >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UA F and you get that to APAC for the same number of miles as UA so that's not really a good reason.

ANDREWCX

Part of the F issue is the fact that CO doesn't offer F itself, nor do any skyteam airlines offer direct US-Australia flights (apart for CO itselfs insane island-hopper to CNS).

Rates in all classes CO

North America - Australia RT
CO Economy - 100,000
CO Business - 150,000
Eva Economy - 120,000
Eva Elite - 130,000
Eva Premium Laurel - 180,000
QF Economy - 95,000
QF Business - 190,000
QF First - 285,000

There used to be a 200,000 mile award on Korean Air in F but this was discontinued.

Also, until skyteam, the continental micronesia flights to Cairns from the US mainland were as cheap as United (before United increased the mileage a couple of years ago).

Rates in all classes UA

North America - Australia RT
UA Economy - 80,000
UA Business - 110,000
UA First - 140,000

You can also get NZ Economy & Business for the same but SQ etc costs a lot more because you have to redeem 2 awards (to and from Asia) - So SQ in F would be 120,000 + 100,000 - which is still cheaper than CO of course.....

Another thing that I should point out is that there is virtually no chance to ever get an F seat on QF between the US and Australia regardless of who's miles you use (QF, AA, CO).

obviously post merger, the awards to Australia would stay at UA's levels to compete with the AA/QF awards but obviously you would expect the redemptions on QF with CO miles to go away.

jhayes_1780

well we are 3 days beyond the announcement of NW/DL. Some of the original Soothsayers had predicted that UA and CO already had a merger in the bag, they just required DL/NW to announce 1st.

Anyway a two part question:

Does anyone still think CO and UA already have a deal? and if they do..... how long after the NW/DL announcement would be appropriate to announce another merger?

Follow up question: Could the report of a US/UA talks have thrown a wrench into CO's plans?

SFOtoORD

No, the two carriers didn't even have a confidentiality agreement until the last couple days. I'd read somewhere that they thought it would take at least 2 weeks to get an agreement.

CO has also talked to AA. I'm sure its just due diligence on their parts. I really hope that UA considers US as a very, very distant second choice.

bseller

I do not. If they did - it would have been announced.
Inconsequential. When a deal is done it is done and it is announced. Not at all similar to "How long do I have to wait after my sister's announcement to announce my engagement".
I'm thinking that it could well be among the things holding up a marriage announcement.

Best, Dave

Mr.Nuke

No they wouldn't be waiting to announce if they did. Keep in mind the confidentiality agreement to share financial information was just signed. It is going to take a while for both parties to go through an negotiate everything out. As for when to announce, whenever they are ready. Mainly when an agreement is reached, the board of directors have met to finalize the deal, and when the PR machine has had a chance to put some stuff together.

I doubt it. With the DL/NW merger we saw reports of DL talking to UA and there were reports that CO was talking to AA even though most didn't take either of those moves seriously. Everyone is making moves and ploys to try and get the best deal possible out of this for their company.

cesco.g

unless you're a UA 2MM!

cesco.g

Does the admin/gov't allow the national air transportation system to become like the financial system where certain players (e.g. Citibank, JP Moran) are supposedly are too big to let them go under?

cesco.g

Beware of the Trojan Horse!

worldtrav

Just symbolic I know, but CO bought the golden share from NW that was preventing it from doing anything without NW's approval. Wasn't there also some reports that the highest levels of the pilots unions had already been briefed?

ctownflyer

US48 to Cairns on CO seems to be 60K in Y and 100K in J.
HNL to Cairns is 40K in Y/80K in J.

CApreppie

I did my own little worksheet, UA/Star had much better redemption rates than CO/Skyteam across the board.

bseller

Highly unlikely. The air transpo system has lost a bunch of biggies over time:
Pan Am, Eastern, Ansett, etc. The reason that banks have a "too big to fail" backstop is the interrelation to the financial system that is based on confidence.

An airline failing would not, in and of itself, cause a crisis of confidence in air travel.
Best, Dave