Fleet Updgrade Report: Hard and Soft Product
Jun 23, 2007, 8:25 pm
#31
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SFO South Bay
Programs: UA 2MM
Posts: 3,052
Jun 23, 2007, 8:31 pm
#32
Join Date: May 2001
Location: exUA1K, UA MM, lifetime UA1P, AA MM, HH Diamond, Marriott Gold
Posts: 3,731
Jun 23, 2007, 8:39 pm
#33
Join Date: May 2001
Location: exUA1K, UA MM, lifetime UA1P, AA MM, HH Diamond, Marriott Gold
Posts: 3,731
Previous cabin upgrades also took YEARS to complete after a VERY SLOW start. i.e. First Suites, current C recliner seats, etc. I recall waiting like 2 years for the First Suites to START to go into the 744's and the like a year to complete them!
The pax on the Pacific routes would have appreciated them the most but they went on the LHR routes first....
The pax on the Pacific routes would have appreciated them the most but they went on the LHR routes first....
Jun 23, 2007, 8:53 pm
#34
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Alexandria VA, Washington, DC or Pick 5
Programs: UA 1P, Hertz 5*, Avis Preferred
Posts: 1,064
To be fair, I may not have understood his reference to PS. But he did say that PS has a high number of paid domestic biz class compared to the number of paid domestic regular F class.
The only other 'obvious' error I heard him say was the term 'plasma screens' for the walls in economy. No way they would use plasma, right? They are much heavier than LCD arent they?
The only other 'obvious' error I heard him say was the term 'plasma screens' for the walls in economy. No way they would use plasma, right? They are much heavier than LCD arent they?
Jun 23, 2007, 8:55 pm
#35
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: What I write is my opinion alone..don't read into it anything not written.
Posts: 9,686
What happened to C/F prices on the p.s. routs? I don't know, but I MUST assume that they wither went up, or somehow the yield was increased. It could not be a profitable thing in this example to reduce capacity, keep your fixed costs high as well as part of your variable costs, to only reduce the capactiry and expect it to be more profitable than the economics of scale that the 767 had.
From what people have posted here, it will not be a "competitive" product, it will be industry leading (or at least for US based comapnies with domestic volume contracts for overseas flights) that given the time it takes to impliment, should reamin that way for years.
Is it a service industry? Are you willing to pay for service and amenities, or is it a least fare, get the most miles, and complain that service has dropped industry? If the former, then it should be a great thing for UA. If the latter, then I hope that you are not the target customer as it would be disasterous to invest a few hundred million dollars just to remain where they are now.
As for "the competition determines the prices.." well, computers are even more commoditized than flights. Apple has sold a product that is differentiated from Dell for years, and has charged a premium. Dell sold to the masses that paid little, and did well, Apple found a niche of customers who wanted something better. They have done pretty well. The similarity doesnt' end there...now that Apple sells a machine that can run Windows, the masses buy the lowetr end products, and the discering people who want the best still pay a premium above the competition for a top o the line Mac Book Pro. This appers to be UA's thought. Hopefully get a premium for the best product available that is differentiated from the rest of the pack, and sell economy to the masses (economy minus) who are price sensative where the commodity is equal.
Pretty good biz model, if you ask me.
Jun 23, 2007, 9:03 pm
#36
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: In the gate area on a flight delay
Programs: UA Million Miler, Hyatt Platinum, Starwood Gold, Marriott Silver, Motel 6 Tin
Posts: 1,093
I agree with the displeasure on how long this will take. But then, given how few extra aircraft they have, there is not much way to accelerate it. I mean 26 days for a complete refit sounds about right. And doing only 1 plane at a time, well, that is about a month per plane. How many planes do they have?
Of course, short haul craft should take less time than the jumbos, but still, this is not a simple process. Of course, they could cut the time in half by doing 2 planes at a time, but that requires extra aircraft which today they do not have.
Time for them to buy an extra 747 and 777!!
Of course, short haul craft should take less time than the jumbos, but still, this is not a simple process. Of course, they could cut the time in half by doing 2 planes at a time, but that requires extra aircraft which today they do not have.
Time for them to buy an extra 747 and 777!!
Jun 23, 2007, 9:14 pm
#37
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 4,511
Thanks for your report! I think you heard what you heard but it doesn't add up for me. 2012 is too long to complete this process---they'll never catch up as the industry will change yet again (and again) before they have finished their "upgrade." Very risk averse, overly cautious approach--much like the Government (and UA is a very similar bureaucracy). As for the book......
Jun 23, 2007, 9:25 pm
#38
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SFO South Bay
Programs: UA 2MM
Posts: 3,052
Jun 23, 2007, 9:43 pm
#39
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SFO South Bay
Programs: UA 2MM
Posts: 3,052
I finally opened the book (it was in shrink wrap) and boy it is VERY nice! Title is "The Age of Flight", "A History of America's Pioneering Airline", by William Garvey and David Fisher.
Published in 2002, it covers the period from 1926 -2001. Page after page of great photos and details of past aircraft. Hey, my loyalty can be bought
Jun 23, 2007, 9:57 pm
#40
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SFO South Bay
Programs: UA 2MM
Posts: 3,052
duplicate post
Last edited by blueman2; Jun 24, 2007 at 1:05 pm
Jun 23, 2007, 10:24 pm
#41
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SFO South Bay
Programs: UA 2MM
Posts: 3,052
Here is the investor document the person on the flight referred me to when I asked when they plan to buy new equipment. See pages 17 and 18.
IR Document
This implies they do not need to buy any new aircraft until 2015 for widebodies and 2012 for narrowbodies. They set the bar at 25 year old aircraft.
IR Document
This implies they do not need to buy any new aircraft until 2015 for widebodies and 2012 for narrowbodies. They set the bar at 25 year old aircraft.
Jun 23, 2007, 11:02 pm
#43
Join Date: Apr 2005
Programs: United Mileage Plus 1.5K, AAdvantage
Posts: 63
Great post, thanks a lot! My $0.02:
I bet that's calendar days. Aircraft (and aircraft maintenance) work 7 days a week. And he was probably wrong about 2012 (just like he was about plasma). Once they get going, they'll be able to retrofit 3 aircraft every 2 months. They'll probably retrofit one of each fleet (747, 767, 777) simultaneously. So for +/- 100 aircraft, they could accomplish in two years. There are going to be hiccups along the way, so my bet is end of early 2010.
Great! The current 763s seats in F are awful, they desperately need suites. But I thought we were still waiting to hear whether the new C seats will be horizontal or angled lie-flat. Did I miss the announcement?
I doubt they ever will. I just can't see how that would make economic sense.
If their new product is great (both hard and soft), they deserve a better mix of paid pax in business. Supply and demand will take care of it.
They can buy aircraft from lessors, they don't have to buy only from Boeing or Airbus.
My friend who had a consulting gig at headquarters said one of the senior execs recommended all the management folks to to read FT. I don't think they see us as the enemy at all, I think they just don't show up here because their PR department probably wants to "control the message."
It will take 26 days per refit for long haul aircraft, which they hope to work down to 21 days when they get really good at it over time. Not sure if that is business days or just days, but about a month per aircraft. He said it would take until 2012 to complete the refit.
They will do all 767 first.
In the refit, EVERYTHING gets redone. Economy, business, first. Enough has already been said about the types of seats, so no news there really.
In the refit, EVERYTHING gets redone. Economy, business, first. Enough has already been said about the types of seats, so no news there really.
Economy will NOT have individual screens in 747s.
He said the expectation is that upgrades from economy to business class will become rare in the future as the number of business class seats shrinks.
He said there are discussions, and that if UA needs new equipment, they will not go to the back of the line.
Finally, I asked if he has ever visited FT, and he immediately laughed and said “Yes, I stop by there pretty often; many of us do”.
Jun 23, 2007, 11:04 pm
#44
Join Date: Apr 2005
Programs: United Mileage Plus 1.5K, AAdvantage
Posts: 63
Here is the investor document the person on the flight referred me to when I asked when they plan to buy new equipment. See pages 17 and 18.
IR Document
IR Document
Jun 23, 2007, 11:08 pm
#45
Join Date: Apr 2005
Programs: United Mileage Plus 1.5K, AAdvantage
Posts: 63
I finally opened the book (it was in shrink wrap) and boy it is VERY nice! Title is "The Age of Flight", "A History of America's Pioneering Airline", by William Garvey and David Fisher.
Published in 2002, it covers the period from 1926 -2001. Page after page of great photos and details of past aircraft. Hey, my loyalty can be bought
Published in 2002, it covers the period from 1926 -2001. Page after page of great photos and details of past aircraft. Hey, my loyalty can be bought
Amazingly, you can find it on ebay or amazon for less than $15...