The beginning of the end?
Nov 19, 2004 | 2:56 pm
#31
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 154
Originally Posted by studentff
Are UX (Skywest, AWAC, etc.) FA's unionized under AFA or someone else?
Would the (normally anathama) practice of preferentially booking UX flights help to avoid these sorts of disrptions?
(Coming from someone who still avoids shipping UPS whenever possible because the 1997 Teamsters strike left package of mine in limbo for weeks.)
Would the (normally anathama) practice of preferentially booking UX flights help to avoid these sorts of disrptions?
(Coming from someone who still avoids shipping UPS whenever possible because the 1997 Teamsters strike left package of mine in limbo for weeks.)
http://www.afanet.org/default.asp?id=5
It has most of the airlines along with to which FA union they belong.
Nov 19, 2004 | 3:23 pm
#32
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Here, there, and everywhere
Posts: 540
not exactly!!!
Originally Posted by UA 882
Something was also said with regards to vacation. United wants to cut the amount of vacation FA's have, but if you think about it, being able to fly all around the world is one of the most exciting perks of this job. And it is not like the FA's fly back three hours after they arrive in NRT from SFO - they have at least two days to explore the city and a new culture!
I'm not sure where this bit of "info" came from, but the longest NRT layover for any US-based crew is 26 hours. The SFO-based crews usually have 22-25 hour layover in Narita, not 48+ hours.
I recently flew a NRT trip...you land in NRT around 4:30pm; after waiting for the passengers to deplane and the added time of getting through Immigration you usually arrive at the hotel around 6pm. You grab a bite to eat and head to bed for a good nights rest. I woke up around 7am, had breakfast and watched a little TV. Our pickup was at 2pm for the 10 hour flight back to SFO.
Nov 19, 2004 | 3:28 pm
#33
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Originally Posted by FWAAA
16 hour duty days? Are you sure? http://www.unitedafa.org/res/cba/bb/07.htm appears to propose shorter duty days than 16 hours, but you could be right.
Yes, the company is asking for the ability to have up to a 16 hour duty day. (Duty day is defined as the time you "checkin" or brief at the beginning of your day until your last flight lands in whatever city you may be spending the night. Checkin times vary based on widebody or narrowbody aircraft and whether or not you are flying domestic or international flight.) UA wants to be able to schedule us up to 14 hours on duty, but you may actually be on duty up to 16 hours should irrops (irregular operations) occur.
Nov 19, 2004 | 4:10 pm
#34
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Originally Posted by IFLYUA
I'm not sure where this bit of "info" came from, but the longest NRT layover for any US-based crew is 26 hours. The SFO-based crews usually have 22-25 hour layover in Narita, not 48+ hours.
When I did a MR in March, I flew ORD-HKG-SIN. Since I was going to be flying back the exact same way, I asked the FA from ORD-HKG whether they will be on tomorrows flight from HKG-ORD. She just laughed at said that have 2 days in HKG. Calculation:
Flight arrives at 6pm on day 1. (6 hours till MN)
Day 2 is free. (24 hours)
Flight departs at 11:40am on Day 3. (11.40 hours)
So in total, that is 41.4 hours - granted, I did not take into consideration the time it take to wait for passengers to leave, immigation, transport, etc.
Nov 19, 2004 | 4:27 pm
#35
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Forgive yet another uninformed question about this, as I have never been in a union or had union employees. But if this CHAOS thing were to begin, AFTER a judge cancels the contract, and according to the union the 30 day cooling off period doesn't apply, don't all UA FAs then become like most of us, at-will employees? If they don't show up for work, or for any reason at all for that matter, can't UA dismiss them and hire on other FAs, like the $8 an hour JetBlue ones? While the action would impact things very short term, it would be once and they're out, so the action would be short-lived. Probably something I'm missing here, but all these threats from the union do at this point is insure most of us will make sure we have staus on other airlines for next year, costing UA even more revenue. Shooting yourself in the foot results only in a sore foot.
Nov 19, 2004 | 4:31 pm
#36
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Originally Posted by UA 882
I apologize for the mistake - I was actually making that statement from personal experience.
When I did a MR in March, I flew ORD-HKG-SIN. Since I was going to be flying back the exact same way, I asked the FA from ORD-HKG whether they will be on tomorrows flight from HKG-ORD. She just laughed at said that have 2 days in HKG. Calculation:
Flight arrives at 6pm on day 1. (6 hours till MN)
Day 2 is free. (24 hours)
Flight departs at 11:40am on Day 3. (11.40 hours)
So in total, that is 41.4 hours - granted, I did not take into consideration the time it take to wait for passengers to leave, immigation, transport, etc.
When I did a MR in March, I flew ORD-HKG-SIN. Since I was going to be flying back the exact same way, I asked the FA from ORD-HKG whether they will be on tomorrows flight from HKG-ORD. She just laughed at said that have 2 days in HKG. Calculation:
Flight arrives at 6pm on day 1. (6 hours till MN)
Day 2 is free. (24 hours)
Flight departs at 11:40am on Day 3. (11.40 hours)
So in total, that is 41.4 hours - granted, I did not take into consideration the time it take to wait for passengers to leave, immigation, transport, etc.
Nov 19, 2004 | 4:49 pm
#37
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Originally Posted by Bear96
NRT (which you used in your original example) and HKG (which you are now using) are different. Less flight time = less rest. The vast majority of int'l layovers (I think all excepting HKG and Australia, which are the longest flights) are closer to around 24 hours to catch your breath and rest your feet, not "a couple of days" to "explore the culture."
Enough ranting, sorry but the simple point is if you don't want to give 100% effort, stand aside and let someone else who will.
Nov 19, 2004 | 5:05 pm
#38
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Originally Posted by flyinbob
Dumb question perhaps. But when factoring in all these changes to the wages and work rules, how does (or will) a FA job at UA or AA compare in pay, benefits, hours, and work load to say Southwest or Jet Blue? Just curious.
Nov 19, 2004 | 5:09 pm
#39
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Originally Posted by UA 882
Not at all dump. A good question... . I was actually wondering the same thing 
Anyway, back to being serious. As far as I know, some of the individual FA that are high, high, high in the seniority scale, actually earn quite a nice salary. I don't know if anyone knows approximate figures, but I am sure it is quite hefty.
At jetblue a friend of mine earns $6 an hour plus benefits (or something around that area).
When you click on one of the links, you can see that in the summary of the demands, one of the demands i that they should get rid of the 3-hour training pay. This means that if you earn less than 3 hours, you will get paid for the amount of time you worked. I am guessing that UA may have had many individuals who have had training sessions for half an hour, but still got paid for the full three hours (please correct me if I am wrong).
Something was also said with regards to vacation. United wants to cut the amount of vacation FA's have, but if you think about it, being able to fly all around the world is one of the most exciting perks of this job. And it is not like the FA's fly back three hours after they arrive in NRT from SFO - they have at least two days to explore the city and a new culture!
In addition, considering that each flight attendant only has to rack up a certain number of hours, all of the FA's who fly the long-haul routes, only have to fly a couple a month and can do whatever they want for the rest of their time - I have actually met a FA who was doing his graduate program at the same time!
Here is a summary of United's demands from the AFA website:
http://www.unitedafa.org/res/b/res/2_demand_sum.asp
Anyway, back to being serious. As far as I know, some of the individual FA that are high, high, high in the seniority scale, actually earn quite a nice salary. I don't know if anyone knows approximate figures, but I am sure it is quite hefty.
At jetblue a friend of mine earns $6 an hour plus benefits (or something around that area).
When you click on one of the links, you can see that in the summary of the demands, one of the demands i that they should get rid of the 3-hour training pay. This means that if you earn less than 3 hours, you will get paid for the amount of time you worked. I am guessing that UA may have had many individuals who have had training sessions for half an hour, but still got paid for the full three hours (please correct me if I am wrong).
Something was also said with regards to vacation. United wants to cut the amount of vacation FA's have, but if you think about it, being able to fly all around the world is one of the most exciting perks of this job. And it is not like the FA's fly back three hours after they arrive in NRT from SFO - they have at least two days to explore the city and a new culture!
In addition, considering that each flight attendant only has to rack up a certain number of hours, all of the FA's who fly the long-haul routes, only have to fly a couple a month and can do whatever they want for the rest of their time - I have actually met a FA who was doing his graduate program at the same time!
Here is a summary of United's demands from the AFA website:
http://www.unitedafa.org/res/b/res/2_demand_sum.asp
Nov 19, 2004 | 7:16 pm
#40
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Originally Posted by martusd
Why don't we let the free market sort it out. Let the good FA's stay on and be graded by service provided, not by years of service. Let the best of the best work Int'l F + C and have jobs awarded by how well you do your job. Then natural selection would at work and UA would operate like most companies in the non-union world and market forces would dictate supply/demand for jobs at the airline. The goverment has suplanted the need for 90+% of what the union provides. They are a dinosaur and union officials just want to enrich themselves and keep their own job and sacrifice their hard working members.
Enough ranting, sorry but the simple point is if you don't want to give 100% effort, stand aside and let someone else who will.
Enough ranting, sorry but the simple point is if you don't want to give 100% effort, stand aside and let someone else who will.
I was simply commenting on UA 882's "first hand" experience about the length our NRT layovers when he was in fact talking about a HKG layover.
I am sorry you are so bitter about life that you feel such a pressing need to "rant" about our lives and our jobs. That must really suck.
Nov 19, 2004 | 7:26 pm
#41
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Originally Posted by Fly
At least know what you are talking about before you open the pie hole.
There are more pleasant ways to respectfully disagree with someone's post.
Nov 19, 2004 | 7:32 pm
#42
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Originally Posted by channa
So much for the friendly skies.
There are more pleasant ways to respectfully disagree with someone's post.
There are more pleasant ways to respectfully disagree with someone's post.
But Fly did have a good point. I agree the AFA CHAOS thing is mostly pointless grandstanding. However. A lot of people here blather on about how much they know about the F/A job and how great F/As have it and so they should "suck it up" yet again just to be thankful to have what is becoming a truly crappy job, when FTers truly don't know what they are talking about.
Nov 19, 2004 | 7:43 pm
#43
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 41
Originally Posted by Bear96
Probably so.
But Fly did have a good point. I agree the AFA CHAOS thing is mostly pointless grandstanding. However. A lot of people here blather on about how much they know about the F/A job and how great F/As have it and so they should "suck it up" yet again just to be thankful to have what is becoming a truly crappy job, when FTers truly don't know what they are talking about.
But Fly did have a good point. I agree the AFA CHAOS thing is mostly pointless grandstanding. However. A lot of people here blather on about how much they know about the F/A job and how great F/As have it and so they should "suck it up" yet again just to be thankful to have what is becoming a truly crappy job, when FTers truly don't know what they are talking about.
I know all these changes are horrible. But it's part of a rapidly changing industry that you and everyone else must adapt to. If you don't, you're out of a job. That's the cold, hard truth. I think that anyone who doesn't believe that this bankruptcy procedure, cost cutting and restructuring isn't a precursor to better days in the future when UA is leaner and more competitive, should seriously reconsider why they're even still working at UA. I mean, seriously, what's the point in being bitter, hating the airline, hating the management and end up being unhappy every single day? Life is seriously too short to do that to yourself.
Nov 19, 2004 | 7:47 pm
#44
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Let's keep this civil. There is no place on FT for trash talking each other.
Craig6z
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Craig6z
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Nov 19, 2004 | 9:48 pm
#45
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Lets look at outsourcing
I do not think outsourcing in flight service (i.e flight attendants) would be as difficult as may be thought. Flight attendants do not required any advanced education, a vocation training program I think could create a large number of flight attendants quickly. If United had an outsourced contract including customer satisfaction service level agreements, it might force better service and would require United to manage FAs as a supplier which would have significant benefits. This means united management would have to monitor services and manage the process perhaps by having occasional outsourcing compliance audits and a formal customer service surveys and managment safety inspections.
I think united has many fine FAs but the fact of the matter is like many occupations they have to accept that their value in the marketplace has changed. A sound business plan could be constructed for outsourced flight attendants that any airline looking to relieve itself of a union contract could turn to. I have done this kind of work for other industries and see no reason it could not work here as well.
At any rate a thought for consideration.
I think united has many fine FAs but the fact of the matter is like many occupations they have to accept that their value in the marketplace has changed. A sound business plan could be constructed for outsourced flight attendants that any airline looking to relieve itself of a union contract could turn to. I have done this kind of work for other industries and see no reason it could not work here as well.
At any rate a thought for consideration.