Pilot walks off plane for wrong meal
Jul 28, 2011, 9:41 pm
#106
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,102
The deeper fact of the matter is, too, United just really isn't a very good company, in terms of how it treats its employees. I'm sure if it had better labor relations (and, yes, it is still possible to have to excellent relationships with employees and make profits - see Southwest and Costco), these types of incidents would not surface.
It seems that the apologists here seem to only think United exists for them - and to kowtow to a frequent flyer program status that isn't endowed for doing anything special, notable, or even real - you just have to fly a lot and pay for it - and forget the employees that exist. Sure, it's a service industry, but again, try to have some empathy for the people that work behind it, especially with such a garbage and slimy executive board.
It seems that the apologists here seem to only think United exists for them - and to kowtow to a frequent flyer program status that isn't endowed for doing anything special, notable, or even real - you just have to fly a lot and pay for it - and forget the employees that exist. Sure, it's a service industry, but again, try to have some empathy for the people that work behind it, especially with such a garbage and slimy executive board.
Jul 28, 2011, 9:45 pm
#107
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You can, just not while not at the gate. I believe the pilot "walked off" (did he really walk off, which implies leaving at not returning or did he just "step away", which implies something not quite as drastic?) while still at the gate, and noone can stop you from doing the same. A pilot standing on the jetway is a very common occurance, rarely refered to as "walking off", except when trying to stretch a point.
Jul 28, 2011, 10:16 pm
#108
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I wasn't there, I don't know this pilot. I don't work for United (but I do fly for them).
I'm 99% sure this has everything to do with labor contracts. The UniCal operation is, as a whole, grossly understaffed. At least three of their major express carriers are understaffed, Continental is understaffed, and I'm banking United isn't optimally staffed either.
With understaffing comes contract violations. Dozens of them. Most of which our union says "well go ahead and do it, and we'll file a grievance". I personally have two grievances on file, one from December and one from January. Both of them were "rejected" by the company, and are in the next step -- who knows what that is. Our unions are so bogged down with defending contracts with regards to the mergers (UniCal, ASA/XJT, Colgan/Mesaba/Pinnacle) that day-to-day contract violations take the back burner.
So you know what we have to do? We have to defend ourselves where we can. Yes, it may inconvenience passengers but you know what? If the company doesn't want the delays to exist than they damn well should stop creating situations where they become necessary. To passengers it may just be a meal, but to employees it's our contractual right. You don't know what that pilots day looked like -- how much he flew before, how much he was flying after. He might have been screwed the last time he was in a hub trying to get a meal. It may have been something completely unrelated and violating his right to a meal was the only violation he had control over. Like it or not, we have to defend what is our right in the little ways that we can.
Two weeks ago they extended my duty day to 15.5 hours citing "weather". It wasn't weather, it was mechanical, but they coded it as weather and were thus legally able to extend us beyond normal duty periods. At hour 13.5 (two hours after I should have been in my hotel) I had gone the entire day without a true meal of any sort because we don't get stuff like that on the Express side. I can ask for a snack box from catering, but 9 out 10 times I won't get one. Yes, I bring a bag full of snacks and instant meals with me, but depending on the length of the flights I'm working I won't always get a chance to eat anything because I'm too busy taking care of my passengers. The result? 13.5 hours into my duty day, I am shaking from low blood sugar and dizzy. I have two choices: I can continue to be a great employee and get my last flight out as close to on time as possible. Or I can say .... it, you violated my contract and I don't feel well so I'm getting food, we're going out 20 minutes later than we should.
You can bet we went out 20 minutes later than scheduled. I challenge my passengers and my managers to do my job without eating for 15.5 hours and feel as if I am safely, physically capable of doing my job. Situational awareness declines when I'm so hungry I'm shaking and dizzy.
It's called Flying Safe with the labor groups. No more will we bend over backwards to help an airline that repeatedly screws us. No more will we look the other way and say you know what, maybe i can get through this. No. It's not about bread, or cookies, or silly petty arguments. It's about the fact that I am a human being and I deserve to be treated like one. So this flight is going out late so that I can actually eat. Or this flight is going out late because there is a mechanical issue I'm not going to overlook this time. This flight isn't going out at all because I am due rest.
I'm sorry traveling public, but the company is creating situations in which we cannot perform our duties to the best of our abilities because we are overworked and given minimal rest periods. We have to take what we can get.
Fly safe.
I'm 99% sure this has everything to do with labor contracts. The UniCal operation is, as a whole, grossly understaffed. At least three of their major express carriers are understaffed, Continental is understaffed, and I'm banking United isn't optimally staffed either.
With understaffing comes contract violations. Dozens of them. Most of which our union says "well go ahead and do it, and we'll file a grievance". I personally have two grievances on file, one from December and one from January. Both of them were "rejected" by the company, and are in the next step -- who knows what that is. Our unions are so bogged down with defending contracts with regards to the mergers (UniCal, ASA/XJT, Colgan/Mesaba/Pinnacle) that day-to-day contract violations take the back burner.
So you know what we have to do? We have to defend ourselves where we can. Yes, it may inconvenience passengers but you know what? If the company doesn't want the delays to exist than they damn well should stop creating situations where they become necessary. To passengers it may just be a meal, but to employees it's our contractual right. You don't know what that pilots day looked like -- how much he flew before, how much he was flying after. He might have been screwed the last time he was in a hub trying to get a meal. It may have been something completely unrelated and violating his right to a meal was the only violation he had control over. Like it or not, we have to defend what is our right in the little ways that we can.
Two weeks ago they extended my duty day to 15.5 hours citing "weather". It wasn't weather, it was mechanical, but they coded it as weather and were thus legally able to extend us beyond normal duty periods. At hour 13.5 (two hours after I should have been in my hotel) I had gone the entire day without a true meal of any sort because we don't get stuff like that on the Express side. I can ask for a snack box from catering, but 9 out 10 times I won't get one. Yes, I bring a bag full of snacks and instant meals with me, but depending on the length of the flights I'm working I won't always get a chance to eat anything because I'm too busy taking care of my passengers. The result? 13.5 hours into my duty day, I am shaking from low blood sugar and dizzy. I have two choices: I can continue to be a great employee and get my last flight out as close to on time as possible. Or I can say .... it, you violated my contract and I don't feel well so I'm getting food, we're going out 20 minutes later than we should.
You can bet we went out 20 minutes later than scheduled. I challenge my passengers and my managers to do my job without eating for 15.5 hours and feel as if I am safely, physically capable of doing my job. Situational awareness declines when I'm so hungry I'm shaking and dizzy.
It's called Flying Safe with the labor groups. No more will we bend over backwards to help an airline that repeatedly screws us. No more will we look the other way and say you know what, maybe i can get through this. No. It's not about bread, or cookies, or silly petty arguments. It's about the fact that I am a human being and I deserve to be treated like one. So this flight is going out late so that I can actually eat. Or this flight is going out late because there is a mechanical issue I'm not going to overlook this time. This flight isn't going out at all because I am due rest.
I'm sorry traveling public, but the company is creating situations in which we cannot perform our duties to the best of our abilities because we are overworked and given minimal rest periods. We have to take what we can get.
Fly safe.
The thing is, your other points could be spot on. The airline unions in general may have some very good points. The problem is that when your spat inconveniences me, I no longer care about the validity of the underlying point. All it's going to do is turn me 100% against the union.
I imagine I'm like a lot of Americans in that I no longer have a lot of regular interaction with union workers. Unions represent something like 1 in 6 total workers, and many of those are manufacturing workers, not service industry workers. Airline employees are likely, for millions of people, our primary day-to-day face of union labor.
By and large, I think we have positive images of flight attendants and pilots. Our ire for the airlines is with their processes, systems, call centers, IT staff, etc. - not the people on the airplane itself. So when we see a pilot act like a 4-year-old and claim it's related to a union contract, it sours our image not only of that union but of the organized labor concept itself.
Originally Posted by PanHam
Why is it any different for this pilot?
Have a little empathy for the pilot.
Jul 28, 2011, 10:32 pm
#109
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Even if I give the pilot the benefit of the doubt in this situation and assume that he has suffered at the hands of unfulfilled promises by his other team members, it still doesn't excuse his behavior.
Many of us work in organizations where we have both internal and external customers. We may have issues and challenges internally but I find it inexcusable to air the company's dirty laundry in front of the external customers let alone inconvenience the external customer. I don't believe it creates empathy for the individual - it causes me to lose respect for both the individual and the organization which results in a negative outcome for both.
So what has been achieved? Win the battle and lose the war by alienating paying customers?
Many of us work in organizations where we have both internal and external customers. We may have issues and challenges internally but I find it inexcusable to air the company's dirty laundry in front of the external customers let alone inconvenience the external customer. I don't believe it creates empathy for the individual - it causes me to lose respect for both the individual and the organization which results in a negative outcome for both.
So what has been achieved? Win the battle and lose the war by alienating paying customers?
Jul 28, 2011, 11:06 pm
#110
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I imagine I'm like a lot of Americans in that I no longer have a lot of regular interaction with union workers. Unions represent something like 1 in 6 total workers, and many of those are manufacturing workers, not service industry workers. Airline employees are likely, for millions of people, our primary day-to-day face of union labor.
the percentage of the private sector workforce in unions keeps slipping downward.
Jul 29, 2011, 12:25 am
#111
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Years of corporate downsizing and compensation reductions have taken their toll on me and my coworkers. Yet, we still come to work everyday and do our best.
We didn't pull these antics when first our raises stopped and then our 401k matches stopped and then our compensation was reduced and then 75% of our coworkers were laid off and then when our medical insurance costs were increased. We could always look for a new job.
The pilot needs to get over it.
We didn't pull these antics when first our raises stopped and then our 401k matches stopped and then our compensation was reduced and then 75% of our coworkers were laid off and then when our medical insurance costs were increased. We could always look for a new job.
The pilot needs to get over it.
For workers with hard-to-replace skills (like pilots) many of the corporations who hire them freely negotiate binding collective contracts because they believe it is good business to do so. You can bet if individual employees or the union regularly violate the terms of their contract, the corporation takes action. Yet so many people here have blamed the worker for asking the company to live up to their end of the bargain; he and his brothers and sisters gave up something (raises, 401k contributions, staffing levels, medical insurance cost?) in the collective bargaining process to get that meal and the other benefits they earn. In this example, with limited information, it seems the worker used the only real power workers have vs. companies, the ability to "stop the line" like Norma Rae until the company pays attention.
Jul 29, 2011, 12:50 am
#112
Join Date: Sep 2010
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I walked off a plane once, when I had left something behind in the gate area. The FA's reaction was not unlike the one I'd expect if I had asked if my weapons had to go in the overhead bin or under my seat. I'm surprised they didn't dump the plane for rescreening.
Not recommended.
Not recommended.
Jul 29, 2011, 12:54 am
#113
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,123
That's not what the gospel (according to aluminumdriver) says ...
We don't have union bosses, sorry.
As I've said previously, I think the pilot could have handled it better, but having a proper meal is important to avoid low blood sugar when flying. I don't know the whole story of what went on, so I'll leave it at that. BTW, if we have a problem, we're told to take it into the jetway to discuss it, not sit in the cockpit or at the purser's work station. So, while the OP takes it that the Captain was throwing a fit by going into the jetway, that is actually what we're supposed to do, so he wasn't walking off the airplane.
Finally, I can't believe this thread has gone on this long. People must be bored I guess.
AD
Last edited by aluminumdriver; Jul 29, 2011 at 1:03 am
Jul 29, 2011, 12:55 am
#114
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Jul 29, 2011, 1:57 am
#115
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Not in so many words, no.
Your unions don't have bosses? I think you'll find they do...
Lighten up, there's a good chap, and stop taking everything so literally.
Your unions don't have bosses? I think you'll find they do...
Lighten up, there's a good chap, and stop taking everything so literally.
Last edited by BadgerBoi; Jul 29, 2011 at 8:18 am
Jul 29, 2011, 7:19 am
#116
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@Hachiko - Thanks for your insight. Nice to have a viewpoint from someone here who is actually informed. Remember - The people denouncing the pilot are the same people who tantrum incessantly here if a snack basket isn't passed during a flight that only lasts two hours past the main meal!
Are people overly obsessed with making sure they are fed on this forum? Absolutely. There exists almost a rabid "need" for food every few hours from UA flyers (hence the snack basket fretting).
@Hachiko - Thanks for your insight. Nice to have a viewpoint from someone here who is actually informed. Remember - The people denouncing the pilot are the same people who tantrum incessantly here if a snack basket isn't passed during a flight that only lasts two hours past the main meal!
Are people overly obsessed with making sure they are fed on this forum? Absolutely. There exists almost a rabid "need" for food every few hours from UA flyers (hence the snack basket fretting).
Have a little empathy for the pilot.
The deeper fact of the matter is, too, United just really isn't a very good company, in terms of how it treats its employees. I'm sure if it had better labor relations (and, yes, it is still possible to have to excellent relationships with employees and make profits - see Southwest and Costco), these types of incidents would not surface.
Wait no... you can't do that can you? You know why? Cause for years the union employees AND the airlines have treated their customers like steaming piles of poop and so numerous cutbacks and financial strains have followed.
Result: Jobs are scarce due to the declines aren't they? Imagine that!!!
Does 2+2 start to equal 4 or perhaps you can find a way to take that out on your customers posting their dissatisfaction?
It seems that the apologists here seem to only think United exists for them - and to kowtow to a frequent flyer program status that isn't endowed for doing anything special, notable, or even real - you just have to fly a lot and pay for it - and forget the employees that exist. Sure, it's a service industry, but again, try to have some empathy for the people that work behind it, especially with such a garbage and slimy executive board.
And once again... if it's that miserable then quit. Find another place to work, find another career, but do your customers a favor and please quit.
Jul 29, 2011, 8:20 am
#118
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++++++1!
I realize that the ultimate goal of United is to drive value for shareholders. I suppose on one level, all companies "exist" for this ultimate purpose. But from my perspective as a client, it exists for me....that is, its mission is to serve me within its chosen strategies for maximizing shareholder value.
That's not an egocentric position...at least no more so than the consumption of any product or service is an egocentric activity.
I realize that the ultimate goal of United is to drive value for shareholders. I suppose on one level, all companies "exist" for this ultimate purpose. But from my perspective as a client, it exists for me....that is, its mission is to serve me within its chosen strategies for maximizing shareholder value.
That's not an egocentric position...at least no more so than the consumption of any product or service is an egocentric activity.
Jul 29, 2011, 8:22 am
#119
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I take the pilot's side in this one.
An agreement was made between two parties. One side violated that agreement (not providing the correct meal). The other party took the contractual right to hold performance of his required duties until the requirement was met. The fault clearly lies on the party who violated the terms of the agreement.
Trivial? Maybe, but I agree with AD and others who wondered what lead up to this action. Are passengers inconvenienced? Yes, but unfortunately this is the only action left to the Pilots. Pilot's job is to fly planes. The only way to hold UA to keep their side of the agreement is to not fly planes.
On this and other threads it's always the Pilot's fault for any action the results in a delay or cancellation. What I see is and agreement that one side thinks it can violate at will. All the pilots, FA's or maintenance staff have ever done is to say, "Fine we'll keep our side of the agreement but no more." The pilots are doing everything they are required to do by contract. If the other party can't keep their side of an agreement then they should not have made it in the first place.
The passenger's only recourse in this case is to take his or her business to another airline where I'm sure you'll get to experience the same problems in another uniform.
An agreement was made between two parties. One side violated that agreement (not providing the correct meal). The other party took the contractual right to hold performance of his required duties until the requirement was met. The fault clearly lies on the party who violated the terms of the agreement.
Trivial? Maybe, but I agree with AD and others who wondered what lead up to this action. Are passengers inconvenienced? Yes, but unfortunately this is the only action left to the Pilots. Pilot's job is to fly planes. The only way to hold UA to keep their side of the agreement is to not fly planes.
On this and other threads it's always the Pilot's fault for any action the results in a delay or cancellation. What I see is and agreement that one side thinks it can violate at will. All the pilots, FA's or maintenance staff have ever done is to say, "Fine we'll keep our side of the agreement but no more." The pilots are doing everything they are required to do by contract. If the other party can't keep their side of an agreement then they should not have made it in the first place.
The passenger's only recourse in this case is to take his or her business to another airline where I'm sure you'll get to experience the same problems in another uniform.
Jul 29, 2011, 8:47 am
#120
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,123
As for bosses, no, we really have no "bosses". Our structure is different than other "unions" per say, we're actually an "Association" by name. We elected reps who take our concerns to a master body who makes decisions, but we don't have to "follow" anyone, ie we have no bosses or guys walking around with bats knocking knee caps.
Off to find my buddy Hoffa......
AD